Author Topic: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?  (Read 17541 times)

Werewolf

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WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« on: December 03, 2008, 01:03:25 PM »
Biological WMD's, Chemical, Nuclear?

For me - Biologicals are the scariest thing around. Once released, depending on the pathogen its spread is essentially uncontrollable and worse case has the potential to blanket the planet and wipe out man-kind.

For the pathogen most think will be used, Anthrax, the worse case scenario isn't operative but never the less the thought of contracting a disease and dying slowly and/or not knowing because treatment may or may not be available - horrible thought.

NUKE: ehhhh. It goes off - you're vaporized - end of story. Close enough - you're burned up, crushed in falling building - etc - end of story. Radiation sickness - limited to area of the NUKE - no potential to spread that.

Chems - most are short lived and are gone within hours. Depending on the type - you may die instantly or linger but again - no chance to spread uncontrollably and wipe out the human race.

BIO-WEAPONS - scaaaaarry!

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MicroBalrog

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2008, 01:08:04 PM »
EMP strikes. That is all.
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charby

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2008, 01:08:32 PM »
Biological, especially germ warfare since it can go pandemic. Also agriculture diseases that can spread.

Rest of them. I live in Iowa not to worried about being directly affected by them, we have less than 3 million people statewide, be a poor choice for a terrorist target.

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

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Eleven Mike

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2008, 01:12:21 PM »
But there were no WMD.  Cheney made it all up.   =)

Manedwolf

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2008, 01:13:50 PM »
Biological. It spreads around, is hard to detect, and some people will panic and others will go around being clueless little vectors.

Chemical would likely be limited to certain urban areas, and dissipates quickly. Nuclear, the same.

Biological could get to you anywhere if a carrier comes near you, and society would quickly stop functioning from sheer paranoia. Who would want to go in to work when someone might be carrying a plague?

Nick1911

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2008, 01:17:05 PM »
Biological, for the reasons stated above.

Programmers can write computer viruses.  Just wait until the technology is good enough to write biological viruses.

Manedwolf

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2008, 01:19:34 PM »
Biological, for the reasons stated above.

Programmers can write computer viruses.  Just wait until the technology is good enough to write biological viruses.

We already do, it's called gene therapy. Modified virii can carry the rewrite code.

(Technically, viruses aren't alive in the biological sense, but...) :)

Eleven Mike

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2008, 01:19:54 PM »
Chemical would likely be limited to certain urban areas, and dissipates quickly. Nuclear, the same.

Nuclear dissipates quickly?  ???

And I think some of the persistent chemical agents last for a few weeks.  But then, I'm not sure what you mean by "quickly." 

Manedwolf

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2008, 01:24:03 PM »
Nuclear dissipates quickly?  ???

And I think some of the persistent chemical agents last for a few weeks.  But then, I'm not sure what you mean by "quickly." 

Except for the ground zero area, which may be intensely irradiated or contaminated with heavy metals in a ground burst and would possibly be uninhabitable for a while. I was thinking of what a terrorist is likely to be able to do, not something that'd send fallout all over the place.

They could probably build a uranium collision sort, but I'd be absolutely astonished if they managed a plutonium implosion core device. If the forces aren't even, one of the charges fails, unequal charges, all that, it'd just be a really expensive dirty bomb with no fission.

I can see three possible routes if they get a nuclear device of the U-235 collision type.

1. Bring it into a city on a truck.
2. Bring it in a ship and detonate it in the harbor full of container vessels, gas terminals and the like.
3. Put it on an old cargo-dog airliner coming up from Central America, suicide airburst over a city.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 01:29:12 PM by Manedwolf »

Harold Tuttle

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 01:28:42 PM »
nuke afterglow could nerf a cities real estate market for decades
but that takes pretty sophisticated delivery mechanisms

Nightline ran a scenario in DC involving glass jars of anthrax broken on the metro platforms
and the trains air pressure pushing it about the city

the panic wave from any attack will be a huge issue

I don't expect most people to behave very well

We had a "shelter in place" drill at my olde DC job
The CEO told me that he was going to bail out rather than stay...

Other managers planned on buying gas masks
They didn't have a plan as to how they were going to keep them if de SHTF
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Manedwolf

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 01:30:37 PM »
Other managers planned on buying gas masks
They didn't have a plan as to how they were going to keep them if de SHTF

Gas masks are useless unless you do a fit test with something like banana oil, practice putting it on very quickly, and keep the filters up to date. And doing the fit test necessitates ruining a filter ($30 or so), since you'd want a new, sealed one for actual use. I doubt most people who panic-buy them do any of that.

Nick1911

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 01:30:47 PM »
We already do, it's called gene therapy. Modified virii can carry the rewrite code.

(Technically, viruses aren't alive in the biological sense, but...) :)

That's interesting.  I think someday in the future we will see an engineered virus.

A contagious, human-to-human, airborne virus that stews for a week before the hosts notices symptoms then kills them would be TEOTWAWKI.

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2008, 01:41:53 PM »
That's interesting.  I think someday in the future we will see an engineered virus.

A contagious, human-to-human, airborne virus that stews for a week before the hosts notices symptoms then kills them would be TEOTWAWKI.

Yep, the longer it took to manifest symptoms & kill the victim the more devastating it would be.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2008, 02:06:39 PM »
I'm more worried about the human element than the actual WMD attack.  A serious attack would trigger a panic that would be just as bad, or probably a lot worse, than the attack itself.

Remember the incident with the envelopes with white powder in the mail back in late 2001?  That had the entire country was on edge, far out of proportion to the actual threat.  Only a few people were hurt, but everyone was freaked out.  My neighbor's utilities were disconnected for non-payment.  He was too afraid to open his bills and pay them.

Remember the DC beltway sniper mess?  Half a dozen people got shot, but the entire area was a huge mess.  Businesses closed, people were afraid to drive to work for fear of needing to buy gas.

A serious WMD attack could paralyze the country for a few days or even a few weeks.  That, in turn, would destroy the country.  The economy would stop completely.  No trucks delivering food to cities.  No trains delivering coal to power plants.  Water supplies could be contaminated.  Entire communities of people could become desperate, and therefore violent.  Your neighbors would convince themselves that it's not fair that you are halfway prepared for an emergency and they aren't, and that it is right for them to take what's yours, because they "need" it.

The military would be the only organization with any sort of working infrastructure.  They could provide assistance, but there just isn't enough military to go around in a country as big as ours.  Hopefully the rest of the world would still have an economy, and hopefully they'd be willing to return some of the generosity that the US has shown them over the centuries.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 02:15:46 PM »
Remember the DC beltway sniper mess?  Half a dozen people got shot, but the entire area was a huge mess.  Businesses closed, people were afraid to drive to work for fear of needing to buy gas.


what business closed? i live within 5 miles of 2 of the shootings and worked within blocks of a third and missed that
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 02:18:26 PM »
National news reports at the time were that some service stations were closing because of the attacks.  Other businesses were purportedly encouraging employees to work from home, or to work nonstandard hours to avoid rush hour.

mtnbkr

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 02:27:30 PM »
I live in Manassas, where one of the shootings occurred (was out of town on vacation at the time though).  Nobody was staying home, panicking, etc.  When we returned from vacation, I went to work, bought gas, etc.

Can't say I know anybody who changed their activities due to the shootings.  Everyone understood you were more likely to be killed in an accident on the beltway or as a victim of crime in DC than to get shot by those bozos.

Chris

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2008, 02:31:41 PM »
Ok.  Well, I guess this wouldn't be the first time the MSM sensationalized a story and got it all wrong.

Harold Tuttle

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2008, 02:33:53 PM »
Remember the blue tarped over gas station in alexandria?

2 guys staying in the YMCAs & driving a Bushmaster hooptie hide certainly caused a stir...

The baklava wearing ninjas with the MP5s flex cuffing white van driving dayworkers on the beltway was a show
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2008, 02:34:51 PM »
i'm 50 miles south of dc and about 1/2 that north of a nuke plant . i fear biologicals most but the "golden hordes" are a concern as well
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

mtnbkr

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2008, 02:40:50 PM »
Remember the blue tarped over gas station in alexandria?

2 guys staying in the YMCAs & driving a Bushmaster hooptie hide certainly caused a stir...

The baklava wearing ninjas with the MP5s flex cuffing white van driving dayworkers on the beltway was a show

The tarped stations were the exception rather than the rule, just like the folks who stayed home out of fear.  It's been a while, but I don't recall too many white van drivers getting cuffed.  I know my buddy, who is a white van owning (at the time) white male (remember, it was supposed to be white males in a white van) got stopped once, but not cuffed or significantly detained.

There will always be those who panic, but the vast majority of people went on with their lives, maybe a bit more alert, if anything.

Chris

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2008, 02:45:15 PM »
the sheriffs deputies down here were at gas stations near the highway and would pull their cars out to block view of the pumps after you pulled in. i thought at the time that playing human shield was a bad job
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Harold Tuttle

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2008, 03:17:12 PM »
I saved an archive of images from the beltway weeks on another machine


I think this one was a movie frame


Had that been an orchestrated Terror Op, it could have run for months and replicated across the country for little cost.
Moose & Duncan looking for angry white men in a white van while the real shooters bumped about the area was FUBAR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_sniper_attacks

Quote
After the specific threat against children was delivered, many school groups curtailed field trips and outdoors athletic activities based upon safety concerns. At the height of the public fear, some school districts, such as Henrico after the Ponderosa shooting, simply closed school for the day.

I remember the Montgomery County officer in the fogged windowed police car outside my kids elementary school...
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Unisaw

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2008, 03:29:54 PM »
Weaponized (through genetic modification) biological agents.

I attended an investment conference shortly after 9/11.  The opening speaker was an expert on such matters and his opening line was "If I had been infected with small pox while traveling to this conference, you would all now be exposed and would carry it back to your home cities before anyone had any idea of the gravity of the situation.  The health system would not have enough resources to help but a fraction of those infected."  By the end of his speech, everyone was so depressed that the remainder of the conference had a black cloud over it.
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mtnbkr

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Re: WMD's. What Scares YOU More?
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2008, 03:46:25 PM »
I saved an archive of images from the beltway weeks on another machine

I was driving from Manassas to Tysons via I66 and the Beltway then (as I do today) and never saw anything like that. 

I'm  sure stuff happened here and there, but in the areas I frequented, it was business as usual.

Chris