WMD's. What Scares YOU More?

[Manedwolf]

I saved an archive of images from the beltway weeks on another machine


I think this one was a movie frame


Had that been an orchestrated Terror Op, it could have run for months and replicated across the country for little cost.
Moose & Duncan looking for angry white men in a white van while the real shooters bumped about the area was FUBAR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_sniper_attacks

I remember the Montgomery County officer in the fogged windowed police car outside my kids elementary school...

That looks like it's from a movie, not a real event. Television news is hardly ever recorded in widescreen format.

Also, look at the setup. What are they standing on? Looks like a boom camera. They're up high for a perfect shot, and there is no shadow from the vehicle they would be in or on if it was a news shot. There's no imperfections like the corner of another car in there, blur on the one next to him. The foreground character is perfectly just a bit off-center, drawing your eye to them for dramatic effect. It's a "perfect shot"...so I'd guess it's a TV movie of some sort.

[Harold Tuttle]

i do have a news footage frame of a guy at 270/beltway/river road face dow & cuffed while they searched his white van

The main highway shutdowns were after the Home Depot shooting & the I395 shooting at Fredericksburg


Police officer checks a pickup truck
(AP photo / October 11, 2002)
A Fairfax County, Va. police officer checks a pickup truck stopped on Interstate 395 in Springfield, Va, as police searched for a sniper



Traffic on U.S. 29 in Howard County
(Sun photo by David Hobby / October 22, 2002)
Almost three hours after yesterday's killing, commuter traffic, like these cars on U.S. 29 in Howard County, was at a standstill as officers searched for the sniper.


A Montgomery County police officer
(AP photo / October 22, 2002)
A Montgomery County police officer inspects a vehicle at a roadblock on Connecticut Avenue, a block from the scene of an early morning shooting in which a bus driver was killed

[French G.]

Bio. I think I could survive the aftermath of a chem or nuke attack unless I was at the bullseye. Bio, not so sure. The insidious nature of a really bad bio attack would set off unprecedented unrest whether the bug was present or not. People start dying all over from something nasty and non-point and chaos would reign. Cough and sneeze from hayfever in the wrong place and get pre-emptively shot kinda thing. Cities as yet unaffected emptying into the countryside and becoming my problem.

A terrorist nuke(as in one, not ICBMs flying everywhere) is much more containable. Boston gets nuked, everyone close to Boston freaks and bugs out, bad for Vermont. The rest of the country is in shock but stays glued to the news. Boston? Sucks to be Boston.

The DC shooter was amateur, but locked down a city. I can't imagine how bad a big city would be facing a real attack. I was in a roadblock near Fredricksburg the night somebody got shot down in Ashland. In a white truck. With a scoped AR-15 under the front seat.    Interstate 95 was closed, 50 miles north of the shooting. I ate at the Waffle House next to the Exxon where someone had been shot a few weeks earlier. The WH had the blinds drawn, business for a Saturday night was way off, people moved quickly outside. I walked over to the Exxon, no customers. If the clerks could have run the till from under the counter they would have. Thought I was daft for standing out by the pumps trying to figure out where the shooter had been. Panic, I don't think America can handle a serious attack.

[French G.]

Speaking of America, seeing the hooded and tactical tedded cops in the above pics among the passive herd reminds me what's wrong with us.

[Manedwolf]

A terrorist nuke(as in one, not ICBMs flying everywhere) is much more containable. Boston gets nuked, everyone close to Boston freaks and bugs out, bad for Vermont. The rest of the country is in shock but stays glued to the news. Boston? Sucks to be Boston.

That's what I worry about. If something hits Boston, millions of people are going to come right up I-93 and US 3. Humans for some reason tend to think north is "safe" when they panic. That's been documented.

The latter of those highways runs RIGHT near me.

They don't even need to use a nuke. LNG tankers come right into Boston Harbor. They're escorted by cutters and sometimes a warship as well, because if one went up, it would quite literally take out Cambridge, South Boston, Charlestown, East Boston and Logan Airport.

Yes, this is Boston.



Yes, that's an LNG tanker. 87600 cubic meters of LNG in that thing. They pass within 1000 feet of buildings, it would be nearly impossible to stop someone from darting out with a skiff of explosives. They come in every ten days and dock at Everett, after going through the inner harbor.

[mtnbkr]

i do have a news footage frame of a guy at 270/beltway/river road face dow & cuffed while they searched his white van

All the pics you posted were shortly after a shooting in the area.

I never noticed any problems in my stomping grounds between the shootings.  Then again, I didn't go into Maryland much, nor did I venture into DC other than for work during that period.  It's completely possible I missed all the hysteria.

Chris

[Werewolf]

i do have a news footage frame of a guy at 270/beltway/river road face dow & cuffed while they searched his white van

The main highway shutdowns were after the Home Depot shooting & the I395 shooting at Fredericksburg


Police officer checks a pickup truck
(AP photo / October 11, 2002)
A Fairfax County, Va. police officer checks a pickup truck stopped on Interstate 395 in Springfield, Va, as police searched for a sniper

Dayum...

That cop looks more like a TERRORIST hisself than he does a cop.

[Perd Hapley]

Gas masks are useless unless you do a fit test with something like banana oil, practice putting it on very quickly, and keep the filters up to date. And doing the fit test necessitates ruining a filter ($30 or so), since you'd want a new, sealed one for actual use. I doubt most people who panic-buy them do any of that.

I was fit-tested a few times in the service.  I don't know if they used banana oil (whatever that may be), but I am pretty sure dead certain the military isn't wasting a canister every time they fit their hundreds of thousands of soldiers, sailors, marines, etc. 

Where do you get your information? 

[Manedwolf]

I was fit-tested a few times in the service.  I don't know if they used banana oil (whatever that may be), but I am pretty sure dead certain the military isn't wasting a canister every time they fit their hundreds of thousands of soldiers, sailors, marines, etc. 

Where do you get your information? 

Am I talking about military training? No. I meant for individual people buying gas masks for protection. And the information...comes from books. Books on industrial safety from my workplace library, how to fit-test a gas mask.

If you're fit-testing your mask, you've unsealed the filter to fit test with, and you're breathing through it, lessening its useful filter life. Therefore, that's no longer a new, sealed filter. Therefore, that's not the one you'll want to have to use if and when you need to use the mask to filter out a noxious chemical, you would want a new, sealed one at that time. You could probably get the cheap surplus filters for testing and practice with, but good new ones like Scott are far more effective for actual use. It's like a parachute, you don't want to be cheap with it. Most all of the industrial masks now on the market use the standard NATO threads for the cannisters.

Banana oil is isoamyl acetate, which comes in a small bottle, and is called that because it smells strongly of bananas and immediately fills a space with banana scent. You put on the mask, tighten and adjust till you think it's fitted right, and open the bottle and wave it around near you. You should smell nothing. If you smell banana, it means the mask isn't fitted right and it has an air gap, and if it were a poison gas, you would be inhaling it.

Smoke testing is also used with an irritant smoke. I don't know which the military uses, but the banana oil is much more practical for single user fit testing.

If someone doesn't want to fit test or practice quickly putting the thing on, it's of no use to them, and they're better off buying an "escape hood" design that is best for just being led out of a building...they'd not be able to perform activities like helping with evacuations as one would with a good-quality ($150-$200) mask from someone like MSA.

[Gewehr98]

I'm scared of space herpes. 

Barring an outbreak of that, it would do well for folks to remember that the Influenza Pandemic of 1918 did some serious damage to the American population...

[French G.]

You can self test a mask with positive and negative pressure pretty well. Of course Maned is right, most people that buy them probably don't do that. I'd use an opened filter for riot control agents and little else.

I used to fit test respirators and repair gas masks in the .mil, getting to where you can breath in the irritant smoke and not gag is a useful and fun skill, especially if you head on out to the smoke pit. 

[Manedwolf]

You can self test a mask with positive and negative pressure pretty well. Of course Maned is right, most people that buy them probably don't do that. I'd use an opened filter for riot control agents and little else.

I used to fit test respirators and repair gas masks in the .mil, getting to where you can breath in the irritant smoke and not gag is a useful and fun skill, especially if you head on out to the smoke pit. 

Yeah, I knew about smoke testing, and it's actually a better method since you can't AVOID noticing if that gets in. It's just that you really can't do that at home or on a factory floor for testing. This stuff:

North Banana Oil Fit Test Ampules
Provides a fast, safe, and easy method to perform qualitative fit check. When activated, the ampules give off a non-irritating odor of banana oil (Iso Amyl Acetate). Intended to be used with organic vapor cartridges on an air fitering respirator. The mask and cartridge system when properly worn should stop the smell, but if banana odor is detected by the wearer, the mask/face seal is not complete.

Because this test is dependent on the sense of smell and cooperation of the wearer, it is considered somewhat less reliable than smoke or Bitrex.
Sold by the box of 10 ampules

is used for fit testing indoors because all it does it make the place smell like a truck of bananas exploded. I've seen an "irritant smoke" kit that apparently makes just a whiff of it in a test tube to hold in someone's face, but it was crazy expensive.

Honestly, most people should just get something like these, as long as it's got a good and not a crappy filter on it.



They're not going to practice, they just need to pull it on and find their way to the first responders. I just studied more as to how to properly use a good-quality mask because I know I'm the sort who is likely to be helping pull collapsed people down the stairs*, and you can't do that with an escape hood, the seal isn't good enough for athletics, and they're very limited use. A good bubble-face industrial mask can be worn for hours, with filters changed, and has a drinking tube that can attach to an NBC-safe CamelBak.

*Edit: If it's obvious the only danger is inhalation. I'm not stupid. If it might be a nerve toxin or blistering agent, I am OUT of there and off to find a decontamination station. That's what the guys in full NBC suits are for.

Of course, that's the other good thing about a proper mask. What if it's an inhaled biological agent, and you have to pass through an area where people are sick to leave where you are? If you take the mask off, you're going to inhale it. They set up decontamination things for that, but what if it's over an hour before you can get to one? An escape hood won't help, but as long as you keep the mask on, and if it's got something like the Scott P100 filter, you're good. Your breathing, your eyes are enclosed.

Seemed like a good idea to me.

[Brad Johnson]

We're lucky out here in west Texas.  We have a relatively sparse population, a lot of wind, and plenty of Nature's Sanitizer (sunlight).  Most biological agents would quickly die if vented into the atmostphere.  Chemical agents, at least ones that are UV stable, would be a problem due to the prevailing winds.

As discussed earlier, the worst problem, by far, would be to make people think that something was happening.  They button themselves up in their homes.  No one goes to work.  Nothing gets done.

The worst, however, would be to take down the electric grid.  If that happened this country would come to a screeching halt.

Brad

[Perd Hapley]

Am I talking about military training? No. I meant for individual people buying gas masks for protection. And the information...comes from books. Books on industrial safety from my workplace library, how to fit-test a gas mask.

If you're fit-testing your mask, you've unsealed the filter to fit test with, and you're breathing through it, lessening its useful filter life. Therefore, that's no longer a new, sealed filter. Therefore, that's not the one you'll want to have to use if and when you need to use the mask to filter out a noxious chemical, you would want a new, sealed one at that time. You could probably get the cheap surplus filters for testing and practice with, but good new ones like Scott are far more effective for actual use. It's like a parachute, you don't want to be cheap with it. Most all of the industrial masks now on the market use the standard NATO threads for the cannisters.

Banana oil is isoamyl acetate, which comes in a small bottle, and is called that because it smells strongly of bananas and immediately fills a space with banana scent. You put on the mask, tighten and adjust till you think it's fitted right, and open the bottle and wave it around near you. You should smell nothing. If you smell banana, it means the mask isn't fitted right and it has an air gap, and if it were a poison gas, you would be inhaling it.

Smoke testing is also used with an irritant smoke. I don't know which the military uses, but the banana oil is much more practical for single user fit testing.

If someone doesn't want to fit test or practice quickly putting the thing on, it's of no use to them, and they're better off buying an "escape hood" design that is best for just being led out of a building...they'd not be able to perform activities like helping with evacuations as one would with a good-quality ($150-$200) mask from someone like MSA.

Thanks, for answering my question, and for all the added snark.  And, for telling me stuff I already knew.     I went ahead and crossed out the unnecessary stuff for you. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

nukes are over rated the casualties in japan woulda been much less except folks didn't know what they were dealing with. they hung out  drank water ate contaminated food etc.

[Gewehr98]

Easy, gents.

I'm sure MW knows there are former and current military online here who are well-versed in the whole NBC mask department, myself included.

I'm betting he's trying to educate the other portion of the APS membership - right? 

[French G.]

Dang, MTP opens a banana flavored can on ol' Maned.  Poor fella    The banana crap is fun too, you just crush a few ampules in your chief's chair just before they are off to the mess for the nightly poker game. 

Gas mask is the least of my worries, going out in the world and interacting to get any needed supplies after an event is the kicker. Which is why bio scares me. I'm 60 miles from anywhere but when the food trucks come to re-supply the stores they bring whatever the world has caught. I'm good here for water, deer, beef, and lamb but that is about it. We don't grow any grain up here save for garden corn. So hopefully the superbug only lasts a few months.

[Bigjake]

EMP strikes, while being a large PITA, would be highly entertaining just watching all of the slobs that now don't have a TV to tell them what to do... 

[Gewehr98]

EMP vs. all my vacuum tube electronics.  Could be interesting.   

[Manedwolf]

Easy, gents.

I'm sure MW knows there are former and current military online here who are well-versed in the whole NBC mask department, myself included.

I'm betting he's trying to educate the other portion of the APS membership - right? 

Actually, that's correct.

People who are or who have been in the military, or who have to deal with factory environments might be well-versed in such things. That, I know.

But I've met a LOT of people who think they can just buy a gas mask, any gas mask like an old surplus one (wrong) and even if it's a good one, just put it on for the first time, it'll go right on with no adjustment (ha!) and will protect them from a noxious gas or biohazard via magic. (could be a very deadly mistake). That's useless. They might as well not waste the money.

I think they're a pretty good idea, myself. If used properly with the correct filter, they could save you from everything from a chlorine tanker spilling nearby to a biological hazard that's transferred via air, that would otherwise get into your lungs and/or eyes.

But if someone doesn't want to take the time to learn how to use it, they should just get a civilian escape hood that requires no training. They're useful, but they're like guns. Owning it doesn't make you instantly able to use it to protect yourself at the second you need to, and might even lead to a dangerous false confidence.

That's all I'm saying. I'm telling people to NOT buy one if they don't care to practice with it, 'cause it's a waste of time.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

they make some escape hood type devices for infants and pets as well. i've got an "in place" plan that covers the chickens and goats. think food supply

[Manedwolf]

they make some escape hood type devices for infants and pets as well. i've got an "in place" plan that covers the chickens and goats. think food supply

Most of those are very silly.

The only pet one I've seen that looks like it'd work is just a thick plastic bubble that seals around a standard pet carrier, and has a modified powered industrial respirator to provide positive pressure. Air goes in through an NBC filter, out through a one-way valve. Simple enough. The one I'd seen has a car power plug and stuff. That, I can see. But no pet is going to tolerate a plastic bag on their head, they'll pull it off.

For infants? Someone had one that looked like a mini version of the old space shuttle rescue ball.

Other products just prey on fear and look like they'd not work at all, or the kid would just pull it off. For example...this is ridiculous.



Sure, a toddler's going to keep that on more than five seconds...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i saw one that was powered and went over their car seat. and the pet ones are like you describe work with a carrier. i hate to think what goats and chickens will do to my hardwood floors

[Manedwolf]

Oh, BTW, for odd lifesaving gear, I found a miner's escape beltpack in a bunch of stuff, and it hasn't expired yet. Inside is a noseclip, mouthpiece, regulator control and some sort of sphere of either oxygen or breathing air, along with an indicator that shows green.

I have no idea how it would be used, and I am not going to try! (Screwing up with gases in your lungs is never wise.) It's just an odd curiosity.

[Perd Hapley]

Dang, MTP opens a banana flavored can on ol' Maned.  Poor fella   

Not really.  I'm not disputing the banana oil-ism.  I actually don't remember oil or smoke being used, but I could just be dis-remembering. 

I was about to edit my post, and add, "Oh, I guess you mean doing it yourself, without the fancy tester machine the military uses."  But too late.  And then the reply was all snarky, so...