Author Topic: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.  (Read 8736 times)

Perd Hapley

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Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« on: February 07, 2009, 05:25:40 PM »
Just heard this from a guy named Colin Smith on the radio.  Quite well stated.  Without objective truth, the law of the jungle applies.
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digitalandanalog

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 11:09:07 PM »
Rhetoric is a very powerful thing indeed. History has proven this. There are many examples for all of us.

Chuck Dye

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 11:19:30 PM »
The most powerful opinion, or the opinion of the most powerful?
Gee, I'd love to see your data!

Bogie

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 11:23:58 PM »
The one which you are bombarded with, over and over and over, until you come to believe it yourself.
 
For instance, invading Iraq was completely Bush's fault, regardless of the fact that pretty much all of the congresscritters supported it.
 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 11:27:09 PM »
Yes, the opinion of the powerful.  He probably stated it a tad better than did I.
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Strings

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2009, 12:25:05 AM »
The question then becomes, "Powerful defined how?". Example: the gun rights struggle...

You could argue, quite easily, that we're the more powerful side: "our" groups raise more money, have more members, etc. However, the anti side, with allies in media (which we seem to lack), is able to keep pushing their agenda (despite our "power").

 So... how do we define this "power"?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 01:39:53 AM »
Whoever wins has the most power.   =)  I would say we've been winning in the past couple of decades.  Maybe the other side had more members and money in previous decades. 

Of course, free marketing (supplied by a friendly media) is a power in itself.  That can overcome the power of noses and nickels, if we're not careful. 
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Strings

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 01:54:15 AM »
Oh, I understand that. I'm just pointing it out. Let's look at it another way...

Christianity* (in all it's various guises) is, arguably, the most popular religion in the US. And yet, there are plenty of "attacks" against it (there's even a thread about such right now). But how does that work, since Christianity has the "power" of such numbers? Unless, of course, the "power" is something else?

 Not looking for a theological debate, just pointing out that "power" (as in the original post) can mean many different things. And isn't always obvious...
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 02:21:58 AM »
Sure.  For example, you pagans have those powerful demonic spells and the like.   :laugh:
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Strings

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 02:37:56 AM »
Cute... :P
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2009, 06:24:21 PM »
Power that's spread out amongst a great number of people isn't power unless they're organized and use their numbers to their advantage.

The NRA is powerful because its 3-4 million members are active politically. If there were a National Church Association and a membership as vigilant, there would be no bans on nativity scenes or Ten Commandments tablets, and Barak Obama would probably not be president now.

Teknoid

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2009, 07:02:33 PM »
Sounds familiar. Kind of like propaganda.

Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2009, 07:05:12 PM »
Just heard this from a guy named Colin Smith on the radio.  Quite well stated.  Without objective truth, the law of the jungle applies.

So, what's the alternative?

Don't get me wrong. I am a believer in objective morality.

But some systems work best if you play pretend, temporarily, that all opinions are equally valid. Democracy is one of them. (And yes, I know America is not a democracy).
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2009, 07:18:13 PM »
I don't believe Mr. Smith was speaking primarily of politics.  His is a religious program. 

If I read you correctly, you're saying that democracy rejects the notion of objective truth.  I'm inclined to disagree.  Any system of laws seems pretty objective to me. 
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drewtam

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2009, 10:03:58 PM »
So, what's the alternative?

Don't get me wrong. I am a believer in objective morality.

But some systems work best if you play pretend, temporarily, that all opinions are equally valid. Democracy is one of them. (And yes, I know America is not a democracy).

Interesting you bring that up. I've been thinking lately that democratic systems require participants/supporters to hold two opposing ideas at the same time:

1. That majority decisions are good ways to make decisions.
2. That the majority made a bad decision when I hold a minority opinion.

Of course, this is only a part of democratic style systems... the other being that they divide power and that is why its a good way to make decisions.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2009, 10:18:14 PM »
Quote
If I read you correctly, you're saying that democracy rejects the notion of objective truth.  I'm inclined to disagree.  Any system of laws seems pretty objective to me. 

I do not mean this.

Let's review what democracy requires (a republic as we understand it imposes additional requirements):

At the bare minimum, we require a system where competing ideas are discussed openly, and then the public picks the ideas it likes best to be implemented.

For this to work, at the bare minimum we must have an environment, secured by law, where people are free to express their opinions to be reviewed by the public.

In any environment where you have two competing ideas, one of them (at the minimum) is wrong. Yet, for democracy to exist, you must secure an environment (by free speech laws and other legal protection) where the people who propose these ideas are free to do so equally. Your right to express your opinion is equal, regardless of whether you're objectively right. If you persuade the majority of the public, your opinion is usually implemented, even if it is wrong (though in a Republic there are limitations to that).

In fact, even when an idea is rejected by the general public as wrong, its proponents are still free to try and swing the pendulum back again. But the mechanism by which it is done is not rigged to favor some pre-selected notion. (In a Republic, you limit the democracy by various laws that limit the ability of the majority to enforce its will, but that's not the point here.)

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De Selby

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2009, 07:27:10 AM »
The problem is that usually the people who demand that others recognise "the objective truth" end up playing by the laws of the jungle to accomplish that end.

Feel free to call whatever you like the objective truth-but unless you're out there forcing people to agree, it doesn't make any difference, as competing opinions (including from people who don't believe there is an 'objective truth') will be out there trying to "win" influence.

He might have more accurately said "the most powerful opinion dubs itself objective truth, and then directs the resources of mankind to proving that all competing opinions are objectively false."


"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2009, 01:43:48 PM »
The problem is that usually the people who demand that others recognise "the objective truth" end up playing by the laws of the jungle to accomplish that end.

Wow, that's pretty lame. 
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De Selby

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 06:32:59 AM »
Wow, that's pretty lame. 

I think everyone since Nietzsche would agree that it's pretty lame indeed.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2009, 01:44:00 PM »
They would agree that your post was lame? 
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roo_ster

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2009, 01:58:58 PM »
They would agree that your post was lame? 

A consensus of philosophers over time?  Unprecedented.
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De Selby

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 03:43:14 AM »
They would agree that your post was lame? 

No, they would agree that it's lame that "objective truth" is still masquerading as something other than a thoroughly debunked concept in philosophy.


"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2009, 03:48:17 AM »
A consensus of philosophers over time?  Unprecedented.

It is...all the more amazing that the concept persists in pop-theories.

America was at the leading edge of this movement to destroy the idea.  It's where we get the term "pragmatism" from.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 06:38:09 AM by shootinstudent »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2009, 12:23:52 PM »

America was at the leading edge of this movement to destroy the idea.  It's where we get the term "pragmatism" from.

Yeah, I observe how the world became a wonderful, peachy place since we made objective truth unpopular.

How much more freedom we have... wait, we actually don't.
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Rudy Kohn

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2009, 01:02:11 PM »
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