Author Topic: That's a bad shoot right there... (Read 13453 times)

Balog · « **on:** December 21, 2009, 01:39:04 AM »

You're a young pastor. You drop a troubled congregant off at a gas station, then goto the atm and get some money. As you get in your car to leave, a black truck comes screeching to a halt and men jump out with guns drawn screaming unintelligibly. You reverse to try to get clear, striking one of the gunmen (who was in your blindspot). As you put it in drive to run away, you are shot in the back and die shortly thereafter. Just another glorious victory in the war on drugs. The article below includes link to the video.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/04/georgia.pastor.shot/index.html

Cops were, of course, cleared. All six of the witnesses who testified were cops. From the sound of the ruling, they only considered whether it was reasonable for ole Agent Billy Shane to be in fear of his life. Not whether the cops started it. They'd already bought drugs off the woman the pastor gave a ride to twice, she wasn't with him, they could've stopped the pastor as he walked into the store or as he walked out, they could've blocked him in and approached without guns drawn, called in a uniformed officer etc etc etc. No damn reason to make the stop, and no damn reason to do it all "high risk felony" style. Either overly militarized cops wanting to play ninja, or corrupt cops looking to do a little asset forfeiture. Georgia seems to have a problem with that...

http://www.thetoccoarecord.com/articles/2009/12/18/news/breaking_news/doc4b2bc6fe5ffd4104383173.txt

jackdanson · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:53:17 AM »

That's all really.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2009, 07:53:19 AM »

Nothing to see here. Move along.

It's just going to get worse. Police Intelligence has surpased Military Intelligence on the oxymoronic chart.

AZRedhawk44 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2009, 09:04:27 AM »

The first thing that comes to mind in a gut-visceral way:
-All pigs are created equal and some are more equal than others

After that... imagining myself in such a situation as the pastor here. My brother doesn't keep with the best company and if I were picking him up some time "asset forfeiture" fits my truck pretty well from a departmental greed perspective.

The only defenses I see to this, aside from madly mowing over the random and loud screaming people that are armed and trying to block me from leaving, is to not be there in the first place.

It's sad that the leading defense to government abuse is to abstain from charitable behavior.

I think this officer needed to be made an example of for this. He had a radio, probably a remote computer system from which he could do a plate-check of the vehicle. He elected to not use this tool and instead went swat-ninja on someone who KNEW he was doing no wrong.

That's guaranteed to produce bad results.

HankB · « **Reply #4 on:** December 21, 2009, 10:21:16 AM »

You know, one of these days the deceased innocent is going to have a hotheaded relative who is not willing to let it go, and won't accept the legal whitewash.

And the aftermath of the trigger-happy officer's eventual demise is not going to be good for anyone.

Standing Wolf · « **Reply #5 on:** December 21, 2009, 10:30:37 AM »

Aw, c'mon, folks. Everybody can see it was a

Great Victory

in the famous war against selected drugs.

Tallpine · « **Reply #6 on:** December 21, 2009, 10:49:24 AM »

Quote

Georgia seems to have a problem with that

Apparently not

(grand jury "approved"

)

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #7 on:** December 21, 2009, 11:20:56 AM »

The police slogan "To protect and serve" has been officially replaced all across the land by "Officer safety Ã¼ber alles."

roo_ster · « **Reply #8 on:** December 21, 2009, 11:23:31 AM »

After pastors, I guess the next step is to shoot up old grandmas and...whoops, I guess my speculation is a day late & a dead granny short.

This sort of thing (as well as granny's killing) pretty much leaves every citizen open to being killed "justifiably" by ninjified LEOs.

Quote

It's sad that the leading defense to government abuse is to abstain from charitable behavior.

How many people, who are solid citizens their own selves, have a family member that is not so solid? Anyone ever do charity work such as help out at a church in the hood? Any interaction, no matter how innocent, can be twisted into a justification to consider one a suspect and to kill them if they don;t immediately go fetal.

BlueStarLizzard · « **Reply #9 on:** December 21, 2009, 11:38:03 AM »

Quote

he undercover officers wanted to question Ayers about what they had just seen, he said. "They approached the vehicle. They were in plain clothes. They identified themselves as police officers, which civilian witnesses say happened. They also had badges around their necks."

you can't really see anything in that video.

he ran a car into a police officer. so they shot at him. admittedly, plain clothes officers with guns drawn is frighting, but apparently they identified themselves clear enough for the bystanders.

CAnnoneer · « **Reply #10 on:** December 21, 2009, 11:41:38 AM »

More control inevitably results in more "accidents" like that. The culprit is a culture of intolerance to alternative lifestyles, e.g. preferring the benefits and drawbacks of one type of recreational drug (e.g. pot) vs anther (e.g. alcohol, caffeine, and nicotine). That culture makes it politically acceptable to treat people like criminals for choosing lifestyles that the majority disagrees with. Then gov steps in with the usual heavy-handedness and puts both LEOs and the "criminals" in high-risk situations that are bound to get out of hand from time to time, as in the described episode.

So, the solution is to de-stigmatize alternative lifestyles to undermine the political support for the lifestyle laws that fill up a third of our prisons, costs the taxpayers a fortune each year, and gets people killed for nothing.

BlueStarLizzard · « **Reply #11 on:** December 21, 2009, 11:44:55 AM »

Quote from: CAnnoneer on December 21, 2009, 11:41:38 AM

More control inevitably results in more "accidents" like that. The culprit is a culture of intolerance to alternative lifestyles, e.g. preferring the benefits and drawbacks of one type of recreational drug (e.g. pot) vs anther (e.g. alcohol, caffeine, and nicotine). That culture makes it politically acceptable to treat people like criminals for choosing lifestyles that the majority disagrees with. Then gov steps in with the usual heavy-handedness and puts both LEOs and the "criminals" in high-risk situations that are bound to get out of hand from time to time, as in the described episode.

So, the solution is to de-stigmatize alternative lifestyles to undermine the political support for the lifestyle laws that fill up a third of our prisons, costs the taxpayers a fortune each year, and gets people killed for nothing.

which i would see as blame the system, not the cops that are merely the instruments of the system.

Balog · « **Reply #12 on:** December 21, 2009, 12:10:33 PM »

Quote from: bluestarlizzard on December 21, 2009, 11:38:03 AM

you can't really see anything in that video.

he ran a car into a police officer. so they shot at him. admittedly, plain clothes officers with guns drawn is frighting, but apparently they identified themselves clear enough for the bystanders.

If an unmarked truck screeched to a halt abehind your car right after you withdrew money from an atm, and a bunch of men with drawn guns hop out screaming something at you... you're gonna assume cop and just sit there? I doubt it.

BlueStarLizzard · « **Reply #13 on:** December 21, 2009, 12:19:23 PM »

Quote from: Balog on December 21, 2009, 12:10:33 PM

If an unmarked truck screeched to a halt abehind your car right after you withdrew money from an atm, and a bunch of men with drawn guns hop out screaming something at you... you're gonna assume cop and just sit there? I doubt it.

if they've got badges hanging around their necks, their screaming 'police' and i just had a person in my car who i knew was perhaps on police radar? i probably would have stopped and found out what was going on. if its a robbery, well, its in a well lighted area, lots of witnesses and, because i don't withdraw more then $50 (if that) out of an ATM, i think i'll chance it.

roo_ster · « **Reply #14 on:** December 21, 2009, 12:27:08 PM »

Quote from: bluestarlizzard on December 21, 2009, 11:38:03 AM

you can't really see anything in that video.

he ran a car into a police officer. so they shot at him. admittedly, plain clothes officers with guns drawn is frighting, but apparently they identified themselves clear enough for the bystanders.

Were these bystanders all in automobiles like the dead pastor? I find that even the cheapest autos block a whole lot of sound and bits of the auto itself blocks line of sight.

In some of the nicer autos, there can be a riot of sound outside the auto and you won't hear enough inside to note it.

Balog · « **Reply #15 on:** December 21, 2009, 12:40:44 PM »

Hard to hear over the car noise, radio etc.

And if you think you can see (in the cars mirror) exactly what is hanging around their neck as they come running (with it flipping and flopping around) well... I don't think that's very realistic.

Regardless, if they hadn't tried to take him down like he was Bin Laden running across the border this would've been avoided.

Seenterman · « **Reply #16 on:** December 21, 2009, 12:50:42 PM »

Since were playing the hypothetical game I guess I'll join in!

Quote

if they've got badges hanging around their necks, their screaming 'police' and i just had a person in my car who i knew was perhaps on police radar? i probably would have stopped and found out what was going on. if its a robbery, well, its in a well lighted area, lots of witnesses and, because i don't withdraw more then $50 (if that) out of an ATM, i think i'll chance it.

Your sitting in your car with the windows up about to pull away from the store which you just withdrew money from. A truck roars up (because pulls up does not display the urgency and speed with which this truck came up on Ayers) men with guns jump out, start surrounding your car while screaming unintelligible things at you. You don't see the badges behind the gun, you just see guns pointed at you. So you flee, and in return you get shot and killed by the police.

The police created the situation which caused a man lost his life, I don't know whats worse the lack of media outrage or the fact that a grand jury actually cleared these officers. You pull this situation on any other citizen, men with guns jump out of a very aggressively driven car, with little badges hanging off their necks that anyone fake and I'd bet about half try to escape and half think their about to get robbed.

And to people really saying that those badge hangers on their necks were enough to identify them as police officers have never had a gun pointed and been in fear of their lives. I've had a gun pointed at me once when I was robbed, the entire situation lasted maybe 45 seconds, alot long than Ayers had, and all I could do was stare at the gun. Afterwards I couldn't recall any significant information about the robber other than, big black semiauto, possibly a glock, and black guy, tall, deep voice.

Basically if you think you'll be cool, calm, and collected when you unexpectedly have a gun pointed at you in anger, you've probably never had a gun pointed at you.

MillCreek · « **Reply #17 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:01:48 PM »

I see these scenarios and one thing in particularly worries me a lot: my wife and I both have a significant hearing loss. It is entirely within the realm of possibility that I may not hear or understand commands or identification by LEOs, especially in a noisy environment.

Some years ago up here, we had an officer shooting a young male who ignored commands to stop and was reaching inside his jacket. It turned out that the young male kept a laminated card in his shirt pocket that said he was deaf, and could you please speak up close and slowly so he could lip read what you were saying. He was approaching the officer to show him the card. It occurred during a dark and rainy night so the young male may well not have seen the officer pointing a gun at him. Interestingly enough, the young male survived being shot twice and later forgave the officer. The situation caused the officer to leave police work.

BryanP · « **Reply #18 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:28:29 PM »

Quote from: jfruser on December 21, 2009, 11:23:31 AM

How many people, who are solid citizens their own selves, have a family member that is not so solid?

Everyone has that one relative. You know, the one when you get the call from the police at 2 in the morning it's not a surprise.

(if you don't have one, you're probably that relative)

CAnnoneer · « **Reply #19 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:31:53 PM »

Quote from: bluestarlizzard on December 21, 2009, 11:44:55 AM

which i would see as blame the system, not the cops that are merely the instruments of the system.

Yes.

While some cops could be more careful in some situations, I believe it is unjustified to blame cops for worrying about their safety first. Most have families, etc., and just like anybody else, they don't want to die or get injured. When placed in a high-risk situation, they understandably might act in a heavy-handed way. And I cannot blame them, especially taking into account they live in a very different world than the rest of us. When you spend most of your professional life with criminals and "criminals" of any stripe, you naturally gauge your defenses for worst-case scenario.

I also think it is ironic that there are so many supporters of IIA rights that seem to deny the cops in their line of duty the same measures of perceived threat and justifiable response that the former firmly assert to have in their own self-defense scenarios.

But, in the end, the real problem is cultural mentality. A society of wise people governed by wise laws would be EXTREMELY careful what they choose to outlaw and why. The reason is because once something becomes illegal, the blind machinery of law-and-order will do its work with all the concomitant unintended consequences.

AZRedhawk44 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:53:18 PM »

Quote from: bluestarlizzard on December 21, 2009, 11:44:55 AM

which i would see as blame the system, not the cops that are merely the instruments of the system.

Disagree.

"The system" gives cops radios, computers, information networks, unaccountable man-hours on stakeouts, vests they can quickly put on that say POLICE on them when initiating an arrest, backup units that can tail a vehicle or make a routine traffic stop on and a whole slew of other options.

Making an aggressive, undercover felony arrest after your surveillance interest has withdrawn money from the ATM is a guaranteed way to increase defensive response by the person of interest.

"The system" gave them plenty of rope to hang themselves. They did it.

Why do I never get asked to be on these grand juries?

Firethorn · « **Reply #21 on:** December 21, 2009, 03:03:00 PM »

Personally, I'm irked at how often the cops put away their uniforms today. There's a number of reasons *WHY* police wore them in the first place. A uniform can be recognized far faster and easier than a mere t-shirt with 'POLICE' on it, and is harder to get ahold of.

Daniel964 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 21, 2009, 04:01:09 PM »

Tallpine · « **Reply #23 on:** December 21, 2009, 04:48:33 PM »

Quote

if you don't have one, you're probably that relative

Not - only because we moved several states away

Battle Monkey of Zardoz · « **Reply #24 on:** December 21, 2009, 05:05:59 PM »

Quote

You know, one of these days the deceased innocent is going to have a hotheaded relative who is not willing to let it go, and won't accept the legal whitewash.

And the aftermath of the trigger-happy officer's eventual demise is not going to be good for anyone.

This is not a call for the killing of police officers. This is something that will eventually happen. Maybe not tomorrow or even in the next 5 years, but it's bound to happen.

News:

Author Topic: That's a bad shoot right there... (Read 13453 times)