Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: SteveS on December 14, 2012, 12:01:32 PM
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http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/fairfield_cty/shooting-newtown-school?hpt=hp_t1#.UMta3eQ8DTp
Anyone live around there? This is seriously messed up.
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Oh God, why? Shooter dead, apparently.
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Crud.
Listening to Fox News, which is reporting five kids and four adult dead. Father of a student may be the shooter, or one of them.
:'(
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"At least 26 dead including 18 children."
"The shooter was wearing a military vest."
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I was listening on the news while driving home a while ago. Parents not able to find their children, how frightening that must be.
This will not end well for proponents of gun freedom.
The push for a hi-cap magazine ban will start immediatley, and have a good chance of passing. When children are killed, emotions will be the overriding factor when making decisions.
bob
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It's times like this I begin to think that there can't possibly be a loving God in this universe
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Yesterday, my wife and I were touring the school where we will likely send our oldest for Kindergarten. I never felt so uneasy as I did when I saw the large "no weapons allowed" signs right at the corner of the premises and at every entrance.
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There's a method to their madness - these scumbags always seem to head for a soft target.
The reaction by the usual suspects will be to call for even more victim disarmament. :facepalm:
Without knowing anything about the shooter, I'd venture to guess there's a good chance he'd been prescribed psycho meds by some pill-pushing quack of a shrink . . .
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Without knowing anything about the shooter, I'd venture to guess there's a good chance he'd been prescribed psycho meds by some pill-pushing quack of a shrink . . .
I think it far more likely he was off any anti-psychotics that had been prescribed.
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Without knowing anything about the shooter, I'd venture to guess there's a good chance he'd been prescribed psycho meds by some pill-pushing quack of a shrink . . .
I think it far more likely he was off any anti-psychotics that had been prescribed.
Or the shrink thought there was a danger but couldn't say anything about it...
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Or the shrink thought there was a danger but couldn't say anything about it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_warn#Clinical_psychology
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I think it is a bit early to start speculating as to why it happened.
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There are some reports that the shooter is a parent of one of the students. ???
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_warn#Clinical_psychology
I stand corrected...
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_warn#Clinical_psychology
Duty to warn only applies to an identifiable threat. So yes, if he goes and tells his therapist he is going to kill a bunch of kids at a school, then there is a duty to warn.
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I was listening on the news while driving home a while ago. Parents not able to find their children, how frightening that must be.
This will not end well for proponents of gun freedom.
The push for a hi-cap magazine ban will start immediatley, and have a good chance of passing. When children are killed, emotions will be the overriding factor when making decisions.
bob
Boss started asking questions. First was "It had to be an automatic gun, right?". Then she wanted to know why you need a gun that can hold "27 bullets"?
Also protested that even an armed teacher or CCW permit holding adult on school grounds wouldn't have been able to stop something like this, because "it happened so fast." And that "they would have to reload, and the gunman didn't"
Normally, I really respect the women I work for, but when it comes to understanding guns or violent crime or SD, damn, they are dumb.
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I'm expecting cries for some sort of weapons ban in 3-2-1....
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I think it is a bit early to start speculating as to why it happened.
Yes.
I'm expecting cries for some sort of weapons ban in 3-2-1....
Also this.
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I'm expecting cries for some sort of weapons ban in 3-2-1....
Also a "military vest" ban.
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That the shooter was only 20, and presumably had a pair of handguns is going to be an interesting twist once the press gets on that angle. Or maybe they won't because the laws in both states the shooter seems to be tied to didn't work or were ignored.
That the shooter at the suburban Milwaukee spa who was out to get his estranged wife bought it in a private sale through Armslist.com while under arms prohibition due to a restraining/protection order is the subject of a lawsuit currently.
AFAIK, NJ does allow private sales between individuals, but they must both have a FID/FOID card. And you can't get one for a pistol if under 21.
In CT, you can do a non-FFL private sale, but it has to be run through the State with forms/checks and both must have ownership permits. Again, under 21 not permitted.
(Ah, now some reports say he was 24 and a relative of a teacher at the school.)
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and presumably had a pair of handguns
And now reporting a .223 caliber rifle.
This is going to get a lot worse for gun owners, and pretty quick I have a feeling. Probably won't hear cries for gun control today, but just wait until tomorrow!!
bob
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I'm not sure which turns my stomach more. This psycho doing this, or the ambulance chasing gun-nazis that are going to use this tragedy to push their agenda.
Who is worse, the person that commits the atrocity, or the person who exploits that atrocity for personal gain?
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There are some reports that the shooter is a parent of one of the students. ???
Now they are saying that the shooter's mother was a Kindergarten teacher at the school.
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I'm not sure which turns my stomach more. This psycho doing this, or the ambulance chasing gun-nazis that are going to use this tragedy to push their agenda.
Who is worse, the person that commits the atrocity, or the person who exploits that atrocity for personal gain?
I say the best defense is a good offense.
Openly advocate for armed teachers/staff, and if that ever actually happens, these school spree shootings will be a memory. The CCW/Shoot Back argument started in earnest during VT and got some traction.
At minimum it might at least push the gun arguments to a "draw".
(edit) https://www.facebook.com/rlanza?fref=ts look while you can.
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I'm not sure which turns my stomach more. This psycho doing this, or the ambulance chasing gun-nazis that are going to use this tragedy to push their agenda.
Who is worse, the person that commits the atrocity, or the person who exploits that atrocity for personal gain?
Thought they are both despicable in different ways, I would have to give the edge to the killer. I am sure there will be no shortage of groups and politicians that will exploit this in a huge variety of ways.
Within the next few days I am sure we will hear about any kind of treatment he underwent, books he read, violent movies he watched, music he listened to, guns he owned, and all sorts of other aspects of his life that 'experts' can pick apart.
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Assuming the facebook page is correct, seems like an urban bohemian/hipster type, the likes seem to revolve around community theater and indie music. The only remotely "militant" or "violent" thing on the page was a like for the Mass Effect sci-fi shooting/combat game.
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Thought they are both despicable in different ways, I would have to give the edge to the killer. I am sure there will be no shortage of groups and politicians that will exploit this in a huge variety of ways.
Within the next few days I am sure we will hear about any kind of treatment he underwent, books he read, violent movies he watched, music he listened to, guns he owned, and all sorts of other aspects of his life that 'experts' can pick apart.
don't forget the "violent video games"...
That one is already being bandied about in our neck of the woods from the mall shooting a few days ago... By that halfwit Jack Thompson.
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The guy the media dug up on facebook as the shooter... is posting right now on facebook... that he isn't the shooter.
Crack (whore) media work, once again.
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FB Page is gone too.
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It's times like this I begin to think that there can't possibly be a loving God in this universe
I don't want to start a big religious discussion in this thread, but while I understand the sentiment, the existence of evil in this world does not negate the existence of a loving God...
If you really want a better explanation, I'd point you here: http://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2012/07/why-does-god-allow-tragedy-and-suffering/ (http://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2012/07/why-does-god-allow-tragedy-and-suffering/)
This is a blog post written shortly after the Aurora shooting, but I feel it applies equally well to this situation
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I don't want to start a big religious discussion in this thread, but while I understand the sentiment, the existence of evil in this world does not negate the existence of a loving God...
Because it's a fundamental in Christianity, that the world as you see it now is broken.
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:facepalm:
http://connecticut.cbslocal.com/2012/12/14/school-shooting-leaves-multiple-injured/
Melissa Makris, 43, said her 10-year-old son, Philip, was in the school gym.
“He said he heard a lot of loud noises and then screaming. Then the gym teachers immediately gathered the children in a corner and kept them safe in a corner,” Makris said.
"Safe in a corner?"
Corners are safe for tornadoes and earthquakes.
There's a colloquialism out there... "Getting cornered." Schools still teach what the word "colloquialism" means, right?
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/corner
back oneself into a corner
Fig. to manage to get oneself into a position where there is limited escape. (Ranging from literal to figurative.) He tells different stories to different people. Finally he backed himself into a corner and had to admit his lies.
have someone or something cornered
1. Lit. to have someone or something trapped as in a corner. We had the wild cat cornered, but it jumped over the wall and got away.
2. Fig. to have someone or something located and under control. I think I have the part you need cornered in a warehouse in Indiana. We'll order it.
See also: have
This above, is the psychology that allows this to happen, again and again.
The shooter is a natural force to their perception, like a tornado or earthquake or hurricane. Something to "weather." Duck and shelter. Not something to combat and overcome and dominate, or hide from if the courage to fight is not present.
Rather than bunched in a corner in the gym, the students would have been far safer, immediately fleeing or dispersed throughout the room, or huddled in the center and prepared to scatter at the first sign of a threat. Cornered, it's like another colloquialism: Fish in a barrel. :'(
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This above, is the psychology that allows this to happen, again and again.
The interesting thing is that a 10 year old has all of the mental capacity and physical ability (speed agility)to survive such a situation on their own even if an adult's mind is muddled up to the point it vapor locks. 10 year olds don't have decades of society pounding false morals and programming into their heads to impede their survival in the jungle.
Turn them loose, tell them to run for an exit. A bunch of running, screaming kids (or even sneaking kids) are going to be hard targets to hit, and they have a lot better chance than huddled in a fatal funnel with a closed end.
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This is why I have never understood lockdowns. I have heard that even other schools in the area went into lockdown. What is it about lock down that makes people think it's a reasonable response to this sort of thing? The better approach would be to throw all the doors open and let people run about.
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Because it's not about resolving the situation. It's about "getting control" of the situation.
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while i am at a loss for words regarding the mental state of someone who would commit this crime, it came as a further surprise to read the following ..
.President Obama was briefed on the shooting by FBI Director Robert Mueller.
does the president now direct the local law enforcement response?
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Police on the tube now giving an update-
20 kids, 18 at the scene 2 more made it to the hospital before being pronounced dead.
6 adults, all at the scene. 1 at secondary scene. Plus the shooter, so 28 total.
One section of the school, two school rooms.
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Striking defenseless kids is all about striking at control mechanisms. Teachers, administrators and teh nooz are the intended audiences.
Massacring kids in a classroom fits an objective in one of these people's minds... massacring kids actively fleeing and shooting them in the back transcends the mental boundaries these people have constructed. They have power in a classroom, they have leverage, they have an audience. When the kids are fleeing, they aren't paying any heed to the shooter other than being immediately revolted by his presence and trying to get away. The shooter loses his enforced "charisma" as a hostage keeper, and has no means to maintain control over his audience.
The kids are FAR safer running through the hallways, running away from an active shooter situation, IMO, than cooped up in classrooms.
The huddle-in-a-corner-with-the-lights-out response sickens and revolts me. It's herd mentality practiced by prey societies. And it's a sick accounting of all the bodies in our litigious world, even if the bodies are room temperature... rather than possibly having kids escape campus and be unaccounted for, for a brief period for the rest of the day as they seek safety elsewhere than on campus.
Gotta have CONTROL above defense and safety.
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while i am at a loss for words regarding the mental state of someone who would commit this crime, it came as a further surprise to read the following ..
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does the president now direct the local law enforcement response?
He does when it's time to push for a gun ban
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The huddle-in-a-corner-with-the-lights-out response sickens and revolts me. It's herd mentality practiced by prey societies. And it's a sick accounting of all the bodies in our litigious world, even if the bodies are room temperature... rather than possibly having kids escape campus and be unaccounted for, for a brief period for the rest of the day as they seek safety elsewhere than on campus.
I have a feeling that it also factors in law enforcement response.
Having the kids herded into corners makes them less likely to be shot by the SWAT team if by some remote chance they show up in time to do any good.
Having kids murdered by a 'gunman' fits the correct idiom that society wants, having a kid shot by accident by a cop or SWAT team doesn't.
Prey societies indeed.
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He does when it's time to push for a gun ban
I heard him speaking and he said "We need to take some kind of meaningful action, regardless of politics".
Here it comes.
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I heard him speaking and he said "We need to take some kind of meaningful action, regardless of politics".
Here it comes.
Yeah, I caught that too. Here it comes indeed.
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He does when it's time to push for a gun ban
Can't be bothered for an Ambassador being murdered half a world away, but when it's something in our backyard that can be exploited.... :mad:
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I heard him speaking and he said "We need to take some kind of meaningful action, regardless of politics".
Here it comes.
Hmm. Obama's gonna push for armed teachers. Despite his party's stance on the issue.
Maybe he is interested in meaningful action, regardless of politics. =|
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This is why I have never understood lockdowns. I have heard that even other schools in the area went into lockdown. What is it about lock down that makes people think it's a reasonable response to this sort of thing? The better approach would be to throw all the doors open and let people run about.
I think the point is that the hallways are about to be full of police, with weapons out.
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I think the point is that the hallways are about to be full of police, with weapons out.
In maybe 3-5 minutes, yeah.
Remember the timed fire drills they used to do in elementary school? Everyone was out of the building in 3-5 minutes. And that's calm and orderly, once the bell starts ringing.
Now, what happens when the bad guy comes into the office first, and kills the people supposed to call 911? Then goes through the rest of the campus, while everyone else is assuming the office called 911?
A 500 student school could be evacuated in 90 seconds or less, if the kids were taught that the sound of gunfire means GTFO, now.
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And then, for the "ERMAHGERD, teh gunnnz!" crowd, there's always this gem . . . from China.
Twenty-two students stabbed (http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/in-china-22-school-students-stabbed_816680.html). And, yes, it's current news.
Any way that we could outlaw government schooling?
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In maybe 3-5 minutes, yeah.
Remember the timed fire drills they used to do in elementary school? Everyone was out of the building in 3-5 minutes. And that's calm and orderly, once the bell starts ringing.
Now, what happens when the bad guy comes into the office first, and kills the people supposed to call 911? Then goes through the rest of the campus, while everyone else is assuming the office called 911?
A 500 student school could be evacuated in 90 seconds or less, if the kids were taught that the sound of gunfire means GTFO, now.
the sound of gunfire? to quote one of the kids." it sounded like cans falling over" evac everytime you hear a loud noise might get awkward
its also about inventory and liability. you let the kids scatter and one gets blasted its the schools fault. and they are all about keeping track of the lil heathens .get to highschool and its hard to tell shooters from students.
scatter at loud noises is a non starter
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Also, don't discount efficiency.
If you herd the kids into corners, it's much easier to count the bodies later.
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you let the kids scatter and one gets blasted its the schools fault.
Excellent point!
OTOH, if a school huddles all of the kids into a kill zone, they can claim they followed procedures and did everything could to keep the kids safe.
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In maybe 3-5 minutes, yeah.
Remember the timed fire drills they used to do in elementary school? Everyone was out of the building in 3-5 minutes. And that's calm and orderly, once the bell starts ringing.
Now, what happens when the bad guy comes into the office first, and kills the people supposed to call 911? Then goes through the rest of the campus, while everyone else is assuming the office called 911?
A 500 student school could be evacuated in 90 seconds or less, if the kids were taught that the sound of gunfire means GTFO, now.
After the Jonesboro shooting more schools went to the lockdown procedure rather than an evacuation procedure.
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Excellent point!
OTOH, if a school huddles all of the kids into a kill zone, they can claim they followed procedures and did everything could to keep the kids safe.
sadly you can bet a legal mind was involved in that decision. and odds are that its safer given most of the "lockdowns" are false alarms
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Gird your loins, they'll be after them after this shooting.
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I've already been hearing calls for banning guns.
Bodies aren't even cold, and the banners are out in force.
Bloody ghouls
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There's a method to their madness - these scumbags always seem to head for a soft target.
The reaction by the usual suspects will be to call for even more victim disarmament. :facepalm:
Without knowing anything about the shooter, I'd venture to guess there's a good chance he'd been prescribed psycho meds by some pill-pushing quack of a shrink . . .
Of course they find a soft target - if they hit a hard one, they might not rack up the high body count they so desire. Hell, they might just BOUNCE.
Everything I've seen so far implies mental issues, though I've seen nothing definitive yet.
Re: the victim-disarmament groups spooling up for their regular assault on the rights of tens of millions who had nothing to do with the attack - http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2012/12/14/after-connecticut-shooting-gun-control-rally-planned-for-white-house/ They had a protest scheduled sometime between 11A and 2P, to take place outside the White House at 4:30P today, as a result of this shooting. They were ready and waiting for the next big shooting.
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I do think we need more crazy people control. It's going to come down to that, or banning guns totally. Either the rights of everyone will be violated, or we agree to violate the rights, if only temporarily, of the unconvicted mentally disturbed people out there.
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I do think we need more crazy people control. It's going to come down to that, or banning guns totally. Either the rights of everyone will be violated, or we agree to violate the rights, if only temporarily, of the unconvicted mentally disturbed people out there.
And how are you going to determine who's "crazy" then? If it means losing your 2A rights no one will ever seek help again.
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And how are you going to determine who's "crazy" then? If it means losing your 2A rights no one will ever seek help again.
It's okay. You can trust me.
I'm a doctor.
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I've already been hearing calls for banning guns.
Bodies aren't even cold, and the banners are out in force.
Bloody ghouls
What we really need is a law setting the lower age limit boundary for pistols to 21 years of age, so that 20-year-olds can't rampage around with a pair of pistols.
Oh, wait . . .
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It's okay. You can trust me.
I'm a doctor. With the government.
FTFY.
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I suppose it's natural in a chaotic situation, but there has been a LOT of misinformation floated about.
- The shooter was a 24 year old named Ryan. Turns out it was Ryan's 20-year old brother, Adam, and Ryan was at work in New Jersey. But ... Adam was carrying Ryan's ID.
- The shooter killed his mother at home before going to the school. But ... he also killed his mother at the school. (She was a teacher.) That means he killed someone else at home -- and it wasn't his father, because his father was in Stamford, where the police found him and were interviewing him
- The shooter used two / three / four firearms. Who the heck knows? Early reports said he used a .223 assault weapon. Later reports said the AR was found in the car he drove to the school. Two firearms were supposedly recovered inside the school, but only one near his body. ???
- The older brother's girlfriend -- and another friend -- are missing from New Jersey. Who knows what that's about. The older brother wasn't the shooter, so it's irrelevant.
- Newton school system had just instituted a new security protocol to "prevent" such incidents. Doors get locked at 9:30. After 9:30 all visitors must be buzzed in and must go to the office to sign in. Worked like a charm, as far as I can tell. The shooter went to the office and shot three people -- the principal was one of the fatalities.
I'm already catching it at home. My wife the anti-gunner is telling me that this is why guns shouldn't be allowed to be owned by anyone but the police, and the Constitution should be scrapped because it's "out of touch with reality."
Stay tuned. I'm sure the police will be investigating around the clock for the first 48 hours or so, so we'll see more/better information filtering in over the next couple of days.
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Disarming teachers is out of touch with reality.
Pretending that laws prevent crime is out of touch with reality.
You know who's in touch with reality regarding school security? Israel, that's who.
Time to bring in the Israelis to teach us how school security is really done.
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What do they do? Micro?
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Not sure how it would be managed, but I'm getting really tired of seeing people who are known by many people, (their own families, fellow coworkers, fellow students, etc.) get access to guns and killing many people. This is not a matter of one doctor saying they are ill.
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I do think we need more crazy people control.
Yeah, but how do we do that?
If I were a "doctor," or some "crazy person specialist," I would be reluctant to sign off on anybody.
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Not sure how it would be managed, but I'm getting really tired of seeing people who are known by many people, (their own families, fellow coworkers, fellow students, etc.) get access to guns and killing many people. This is not a matter of one doctor saying they are ill.
What if you're in Liberalville USA and you're known by many as unstable because you're bitterly clinging to your guns? Because you have an "arsenal" of a couple AR's and a case of ammo?
I also note how stupid it is to try to keep people from getting guns by making it so that they can't buy one at a gun store. Will you also accept "closing the gun show loophole" to make your plan work?
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*twitch-twitch* :mad:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/14/Bloomberg-politicizes-shooting
As stated previously.... damned ghouls, building the foundations of their agendas on the bodies of the innocent dead.
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That's part of my point. Being interested in guns is a tiny part of this, and I think even the general public gets that. These last few shooters have quite a history of mental illness.
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It's okay. You can trust me.
I'm a doctor.
I would certainly trust the typical physician over an Operating Thetan in Sea Org with an E-meter.
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That's part of my point. Being interested in guns is a tiny part of this, and I think even the general public gets that. These last few shooters have quite a history of mental illness.
In this day and age, a lot of people do. We know mental illiness has got to be a factor when people commit crimes like this. The problem is the label "mental illness" covers a LOT of people, plenty of whom arn't going out on shooting spree's.
I've come to the conclusion that such acts can almost never be stopped before they happen without seriously infringing the rights of everyone.
The best method of cutting down on the number of such incidents is to take away the perceived result from the one who commits it. Which means stopping them in the act and not glorifing the tradgidy on the news.
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I would certainly trust the typical physician over an Operating Thetan in Sea Org with an E-meter.
Wow.
Domain error.
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You know, if the media wouldn't make these crazy *expletive deleted*s out to be temporary rock stars then just maybe the next crazy *expletive deleted*ck would find a different outlet for his problems.
Instead we have the media broadcasting every minute detail of every crazy ass *expletive deleted*s life that does something like this. IMO many shootings like this only happen because the lunatic knows he will be immortalized by the media.
Again IMO, I think if we named the perpetrators of events like this similar to how hurricanes are named, we would take away a lot of what attracts people to do things like shoot a room full of kindergartners. These crazy ass son of a bitches are desperate for attention, why else would you do something like this.. Instead the media will repeat his name and his story and basically give him everything he probably wanted bad enough to do this. Recognition.
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In this day and age, a lot of people do. We know mental illiness has got to be a factor when people commit crimes like this. The problem is the label "mental illness" covers a LOT of people, plenty of whom arn't going out on shooting spree's.
Had a fellow earlier today try to tell me about how we need to preempt the insane people better, and then went on to lump in those diagnosed with PTSD. My reply to him...
"You mean like me? I was diagnosed with it. It manifested as depression, anxiety and lethargy. It did not, however, affect my moral or ethical reasoning. You should not conflate all incidences of PTSD to be those showing uncontrolled violent tendencies."
...that put the brakes on him rather quickly.
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Had a fellow earlier today try to tell me about how we need to preempt the insane people better, and then went on to lump in those diagnosed with PTSD. My reply to him...
"You mean like me? I was diagnosed with it. It manifested as depression, anxiety and lethargy. It did not, however, affect my moral or ethical reasoning. You should not conflate all incidences of PTSD to be those showing uncontrolled violent tendencies."
...that put the brakes on him rather quickly.
Exactly.
The thing is, our society has a lot more emphisis on pyshcological health. Which means almost everyone has at least a pysch evaluation collecting dust in a docters office somewhere.
The fact that we specifically know these murderers have recorded mental illnesses and have received treatment for such, either currently or previously, is not a shocking piece of information in a culture that places such emphisis on mental health and diagnosis, because it just doesn't mean anything special anymore. I would guess the majority of people in this country have had some sort of treatment for metal illness.
What should be more intresting is that, despite the prevalence of such assisments and supposed understanding, we seem to have more such incidences of violent attacks like this rather then less. The advances in the feild of psycology don't seem to be relivent at all in the prevention of such crimes.
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read an interview with a mom who was in conference with principle and school shrink when it started. said they left to investigate and were amongst the dead. hats off to them doing the right thing shame they were denied tools needed to suceed
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I do think we need more crazy people control. It's going to come down to that, or banning guns totally. Either the rights of everyone will be violated, or we agree to violate the rights, if only temporarily, of the unconvicted mentally disturbed people out there.
There is some truth to this. I am no suggesting we lock up every mentally ill person, but this is the result of the deinstitutionalization that started in the late 70's. I have had plenty of clients that had frequent psychotic episodes. They would go to the hospital, get loaded up with meds, and get released a few days later.
The reality is that the treatment options for the severely mentally ill are pretty limited.
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read an interview with a mom who was in conference with principle and school shrink when it started. said they left to investigate and were amongst the dead. hats off to them doing the right thing shame they were denied tools needed to suceed
But that can't be! As has been so often discussed on this board, all publik educashion staff are evil Statists who belong to unions, and they all graduated at the bottom of their class, I tell you what! [popcorn]
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The problem of restricting firearms rights for "mentally Ill" persons is that I don think the government can be trusted to draw the line in an appropriate place. Additionally, that does nothing for the folks killed by people who aren't yet over that line
By many many people's standards, I'm mentally ill ... And that worries me when calls for "reasonable" mental health measures to be implemented
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What should be more intresting is that, despite the prevalence of such assisments and supposed understanding, we seem to have more such incidences of violent attacks like this rather then less. The advances in the feild of psycology don't seem to be relivent at all in the prevention of such crimes.
Having worked in the psych field I am going to question the assertion that a lot of people have gotten an extensive assessment.
The problem with psychological treatment is that it requires a lot of work. I had clients hat made progress and I had clients that didn't. The most gifted clinician in the world isn't going to be able to help someone that isn't interested in getting better. AFAIK, there are no treatments for psychopaths.
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Having worked in the psych field I am going to question the assertion that a lot of people have gotten an extensive assessment.
The problem with psychological treatment is that it requires a lot of work. I had clients hat made progress and I had clients that didn't. The most gifted clinician in the world isn't going to be able to help someone that isn't interested in getting better. AFAIK, there are no treatments for psychopaths.
Sure there are. High dose lead treatment to the brain.
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The problem of restricting firearms rights for "mentally Ill" persons is that I don think the government can be trusted to draw the line in an appropriate place. Additionally, that does nothing for the folks killed by people who aren't yet over that line
By many many people's standards, I'm mentally ill ... And that worries me when calls for "reasonable" mental health measures to be implemented
True. Michigan's CPL statute contains overly broad language in dealing with the mentally ill.
I don't know what the answer is. Therapists don't always know if their clients are dangerous. I had a few that said things that required me to warn other people. I also had a client murder one of his friends that completely surprised me. You can be damn sure that I replayed every conversation we had, trying to figure out of I should have predicted his actions.
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Sure there are. High dose lead treatment to the brain.
That'll do it. ;)
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According to the NYT, all three firearms used in the shooting were owned by Mrs. Lanza, killed by her son at her home, before he drove to her school and continued his murderous rampage.
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I would guess the majority of people in this country have had some sort of treatment for metal illness.
Indeed this is true. I and several other people I know who shoot a lot indoors have been treated for high blood lead levels.
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Looks like SyFy channel pulled tonight's episode of Haven. Guide info said it was about murders at a High school reunion.
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Having worked in the psych field I am going to question the assertion that a lot of people have gotten an extensive assessment.
The problem with psychological treatment is that it requires a lot of work. I had clients hat made progress and I had clients that didn't. The most gifted clinician in the world isn't going to be able to help someone that isn't interested in getting better. AFAIK, there are no treatments for psychopaths.
I think my point is similar to yours, sort of.
I'm trying to point out that the emphis on the fact that these people had been under treatment for mental illness is pointless and the resulting arguements for restricting gun ownership based on such treatments and medical history is fruitless.
Yes, we know these murders are nuttier then squirrel poop in a pistacio factory, but the health care workers still can't differenitiate between the nuts who will go on to do these things and the ones that won't.
Trying to anticipate what crazy people will do is, in of itself, crazy. As much as we do try to understand pyschology (and we should try), the practical applications of that knowledge under these circumstances are limited at best.
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Fistul and roo_ster might appreciate this angle:
What is the ratio of active Christian school schooters, versus atheist/agnostic school shooters?
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Fistul and roo_ster might appreciate this angle:
What is the ratio of active Christian school schooters, versus atheist/agnostic school shooters?
I give up, what is the ratio?
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>What is the ratio of active Christian school schooters, versus atheist/agnostic school shooters?<
That would require having a decent definition of "Christian". And I have, at one point or another, heard every sect of Christianity called a "cult".
At the same time, if you use my definition ("Believes in Christ as the Savior and Son of God"), even Manson's Family would qualify...
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It won't be the cults that muddy the waters. It will be the fact that so many of the "shooters" can be tied to some garden-variety religious group, be it ever so loosely. And chances are, this being the United States, that group will be Christian.
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That'll do it. ;)
IIRC, a high dose isn't even that necessary, as long as it is delivered witrh sufficient velocity. ;)
bob
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You know, there's a different approach from the "policing the crazies" idea.
We could try not manufacturing a culture of emo-psycho anti-social dingbats for starters.
'Course, that would mean doing something with the schools. And that would mean changing the curriculum and methodologies.
Nah.
Let's just go get the guns. Well, that, and add three more layers of Nerf and bubble wrap to the process of exercising constitutionally guaranteed rights. And, while we're at it, maybe see if we can just do a blanket disqualification of some huge swathe of the population. Oh, and the Spanish Inquisition. Gotta have that. Nobody expects that.
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The problem of restricting firearms rights for "mentally Ill" persons is that I don think the government can be trusted to draw the line in an appropriate place. Additionally, that does nothing for the folks killed by people who aren't yet over that line
By many many people's standards, I'm mentally ill ... And that worries me when calls for "reasonable" mental health measures to be implemented
Looks like your POV has changed in two years. :)
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You can't prevent evil....you can be prepared for when it comes to your door...
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I was just listening to an "authoritah" on Fox. He says the shooter must have been planning this for a while, since he had so many evil hollow boolits. And it would have taken a while to amass such a number of evil hollow boolits. And the reason those hollow boolits are so evil is because they flower when they penetrate which is really bad for law enforcement peoples like him cuz they'll go right through a boolit proof vest.
The Fox crew was lapping up all this authoritahtive innerformations.
My head hurts like Hell right now!
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'Course, that would mean doing something with the schools. And that would mean changing the curriculum and methodologies.
Nah.
Not that schools couldn't stand to be improved, but I would place the blame on parents for their own children...not schools, the internet, TV, or whatnot. A lot of the disturbed kids I used to work with were dealing with divorce, abuse, and all sorts of other parental antics. The schools aren't equipped to deal with this level of messed up, nor should they have to.
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I was just listening to an "authoritah" on Fox. He says the shooter must have been planning this for a while, since he had so many evil hollow boolits. And it would have taken a while to amass such a number of evil hollow boolits. And the reason those hollow boolits are so evil is because they flower when they penetrate which is really bad for law enforcement peoples like him cuz they'll go right through a boolit proof vest.
The Fox crew was lapping up all this authoritahtive innerformations.
My head hurts like Hell right now!
Thanks; mine hurts now, too.
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According to Fox News the shooting was over in 3 minutes. The police never had a chance to stop the psycho.
For those of you considering restricting firearms for the "mentally ill," are you also considering restricting their other fundamental rights? Would you prevent them from having a computer, radio or TV? Should they be prevented from voting? Can the police enter their home at any time for any reason?
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Looks like your POV has changed in two years. :)
Yep
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According to Fox News the shooting was over in 3 minutes. The police never had a chance to stop the psycho.
For those of you considering restricting firearms for the "mentally ill," are you also considering restricting their other fundamental rights? Would you prevent them from having a computer, radio or TV? Should they be prevented from voting? Can the police enter their home at any time for any reason?
Just like a criminal that's served his time and is safe enough to be out of prison should have all rights restored, mentally ill not sick enough to be committed should have full rights.
I don't trust the government at all with drawing a "reasonable" line.
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According to Fox News the shooting was over in 3 minutes. The police never had a chance to stop the psycho.
Interesting.
In maybe 3-5 minutes, yeah.
Remember the timed fire drills they used to do in elementary school? Everyone was out of the building in 3-5 minutes. And that's calm and orderly, once the bell starts ringing.
Now, what happens when the bad guy comes into the office first, and kills the people supposed to call 911? Then goes through the rest of the campus, while everyone else is assuming the office called 911?
A 500 student school could be evacuated in 90 seconds or less, if the kids were taught that the sound of gunfire means GTFO, now.
:P
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Fistul and roo_ster might appreciate this angle:
What is the ratio of active Christian school schooters, versus atheist/agnostic school shooters?
There are other options. For instance, what's-his-name, the guy who shot Gabrielle Giffords and others, is said to have had a shrine to Santa Muerte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Muerte).
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In maybe 3-5 minutes, yeah.
Remember the timed fire drills they used to do in elementary school? Everyone was out of the building in 3-5 minutes. And that's calm and orderly, once the bell starts ringing.
Now, what happens when the bad guy comes into the office first, and kills the people supposed to call 911? Then goes through the rest of the campus, while everyone else is assuming the office called 911?
A 500 student school could be evacuated in 90 seconds or less, if the kids were taught that the sound of gunfire means GTFO, now.
If 853 people can get out of A PLANE in 78 seconds, from being seated N deep, and narrow aisles, to only a randomly selected and unknown half of the exits, IN COMPLETE DARKNESS, 500 kids can get out of a school damn fast.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=1be26216-5f1f-4dea-a723-ccca4e5a232a
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According to Fox News the shooting was over in 3 minutes. The police never had a chance to stop the psycho.
i bet during those 3 minutes every teacher in the building were wishing they had a gun.
i was watching cnn and pierce morgan was pointing to a picture with two hanguns and an ar-15ish rifle. he kept pointing to the rifle and blathering about it being the reason so many people were killed. i wonder if he will retract his statements now that we know it was in the car?
eta: am i hearing correctly that the police are not allowing the parents to collect their deceased children?
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I've repeatedly told my schoolteacher wife that, in the event of this situation, she needs to lock the door, bust out the outside window, and evacuate her class & herself. She's pooh-poohed that suggestion in the past....I hope she reconsiders that now....
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eta: am i hearing correctly that the police are not allowing the parents to collect their deceased children?
Yes, that is correct. All of the deceased have been taken to the medical examiner's office. That is required for criminal investigations.
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eta: am i hearing correctly that the police are not allowing the parents to collect their deceased children?
Forensics and evidence.
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Also a "military vest" ban.
More piling on. IF the kid was wearing a ballistic vest (and I'll bet he wasn't), Connecticut state law already makes it illegal to wear personal body armor in the commission of a felony. Of course, it's also illegal to possess guns on school grounds, it's illegal to shoot people, it's illegal to kill people, it's illegal to steal guns from your (dead) mother, it's illegal to steal your dead mother's car ...
More laws are not the answer. But I agree, the politicians will inevitably see more draconian anti-gun laws as the answer.
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Yeah, that's a new trend I see coming out since the Aurora shooting. "LBE ='s Body Armor".... ;/
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Yeah, that's a new trend I see coming out since the Aurora shooting. "LBE ='s Body Armor".... ;/
Side effect: maybe idiots will think they have ballistic properties and will thus expose themselves more so CCW folks and cops can more easily take them out? Imagine the north Hollywood robbery and how those perps behaved knowing they had ballistic vests on...now substitute same behavior, but non ballistic vest.
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Side effect: maybe idiots will think they have ballistic properties and will thus expose themselves more so CCW folks and cops can more easily take them out? Imagine the north Hollywood robbery and how those perps behaved knowing they had ballistic vests on...now substitute same behavior, but non ballistic vest.
Darwin will smile, innocent lives may be spared.
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For those of you considering restricting firearms for the "mentally ill," are you also considering restricting their other fundamental rights? Would you prevent them from having a computer, radio or TV? Should they be prevented from voting? Can the police enter their home at any time for any reason?
Sounds good to me. Review the history of the Columbine perps, the Giffords shooter, Colorado theatre shooter, this guy, and many others. They destructive map they lay out in advance of these acts is very often very well known by people who are involved in their daily lives. They are mostly powerless to do anything about it. I wonder how his guy's mom stored her guns? She evidently knew that he was not right in the head. Assuming they can't be helped in any other way, I'd be fine with every freedom they have being taken away. Perhaps forever.
What action would you propose if this were to become a daily occurrence? Let's say a thousand Kindergarden kids are shot to death every year...or five thousand? How long do you think we could continue to keep gun freedoms in the US at that rate? What would you do then? Why would you not do the same if it is 50 a year?
Something WILL happen - I'd prefer that responsible gun owners help drive that action. If it doesn't involve a reasonable effort to keep guns out of the hands of the insane, then it will certainly involve keeping guns away from everyone.
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And you trust the government to draw that line, and not bar me from owning firearms?
What about the shooters who DON'T show any signs?
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Not that schools couldn't stand to be improved, but I would place the blame on parents for their own children...not schools, the internet, TV, or whatnot. A lot of the disturbed kids I used to work with were dealing with divorce, abuse, and all sorts of other parental antics. The schools aren't equipped to deal with this level of messed up, nor should they have to.
And I would disagree.
It wasn't the parents who told my kids that they had special rights, that "grounding" was child abuse, that hollering at them was abuse, threatening to restrict privileges was abuse, and if we "upset" them we could be reported to the school and the authorities.
Big push on "child rights" which amounted to an abridgement of parental authority. Oh, yeah, they wanted parents to be involved, as long as "involved" supported the school's policies and objectives.
The state inserted itself between the kids and parents, and yet they continue to blame the parents.
That's messed up.
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What action would you propose if this were to become a daily occurrence? Let's say 32,000 people die in car crashes every year. How long do you think we could continue to keep car freedoms in the US at that rate? What would you do then? Why would you not do the same if it is 50 a year?
What do you think of the slight change to your question?
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Yeah, that's a new trend I see coming out since the Aurora shooting. "LBE ='s Body Armor".... ;/
That guy in Aurora wasn't wearing body armor? ???
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That guy in Aurora wasn't wearing body armor? ???
No, IIRC. He was wearing a "tactical vest" made out of nylon.
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Yes, that is correct. All of the deceased have been taken to the medical examiner's office. That is required for criminal investigations.
i'm sorry, but i would have a big problem with that if it were my child.
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Sounds good to me. Review the history of the Columbine perps, the Giffords shooter, Colorado theatre shooter, this guy, and many others. They destructive map they lay out in advance of these acts is very often very well known by people who are involved in their daily lives. They are mostly powerless to do anything about it. I wonder how his guy's mom stored her guns? She evidently knew that he was not right in the head. Assuming they can't be helped in any other way, I'd be fine with every freedom they have being taken away. Perhaps forever.
What action would you propose if this were to become a daily occurrence? Let's say a thousand Kindergarden kids are shot to death every year...or five thousand? How long do you think we could continue to keep gun freedoms in the US at that rate? What would you do then? Why would you not do the same if it is 50 a year?
Something WILL happen - I'd prefer that responsible gun owners help drive that action. If it doesn't involve a reasonable effort to keep guns out of the hands of the insane, then it will certainly involve keeping guns away from everyone.
In 2008 ALONE 336 children ages 4-7 were killed in MVAs, nearly THREE times the number killed in homicides in the same year.
If you look at causes of death for ALL <15yr children for 2008, MVAs accounted for nearly twice the deaths as homicide.
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Just now on Fox:
Former NYPD detective John Baeza tells the anchor that his solution to school shootings is to eliminate the gun free zones. :O
The anchor, stunned, asks him if he means there should be armed guards at schools. Baeza says that what he's talking about is letting any school staff or others to carry if they want.
Then the anchor asks if the staff should be allowed to use the evil boolits that allowed so many kids to be killed so quick. Baeza says they should be allowed to use whatever they want. That if the principal had been armed, she may have been able to stop the whole deal right off.
John Baeza for president!
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Yes, that is correct. All of the deceased have been taken to the medical examiner's office. That is required for criminal investigations.
i'm sorry, but i would have a big problem with that if it were my child.
That is a pretty standard procedure in the case of medical examiner cases. I can't tell you how many times in the ER I have had to tell parents they can't see or touch their deceased child because he or she was a "crime scene" and had to be processed through the crime lab first. I think that causes nearly as much grief as the actual loss, not being able to hold their child and say goodbye.
bob
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Just now on Fox:
Former NYPD detective John Baeza tells the anchor that his solution to school shootings is to eliminate the gun free zones. :O
The anchor, stunned, asks him if he means there should be armed guards at schools. Baeza says that what he's talking about is letting any school staff or others to carry if they want.
Then the anchor asks if the staff should be allowed to use the evil boolits that allowed so many kids to be killed so quick. Baeza says they should be allowed to use whatever they want. That if the principal had been armed, she may have been able to stop the whole deal right off.
John Baeza for president!
Jesus.
That was... unexpected.
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Jesus.
That was... unexpected.
No *expletive deleted*it!
I'm looking for a link to a video of the interview. I need to see that I really saw what I thought I saw!
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Did you say NEW YORK PD? :O Maybe this is why he is former. :lol:
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Got it!
http://www.therightscoop.com/nypd-detective-we-need-to-repeal-gun-free-school-zones/
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Did you say NEW YORK PD? :O Maybe this is why he is former. :lol:
He looks "former" because he's about 400 pounds and has no neck. I expected him to say something in Huttese. There's no way he could pass a physical evaluation as an officer, or chase anyone down.
That being said, he's right in this case. School/mall/theater shootings happen because they are guaranteed disarmed zones.
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And I would disagree.
It wasn't the parents who told my kids that they had special rights, that "grounding" was child abuse, that hollering at them was abuse, threatening to restrict privileges was abuse, and if we "upset" them we could be reported to the school and the authorities.
Big push on "child rights" which amounted to an abridgement of parental authority. Oh, yeah, they wanted parents to be involved, as long as "involved" supported the school's policies and objectives.
The state inserted itself between the kids and parents, and yet they continue to blame the parents.
That's messed up.
Oh please. I guess my kids have never heard anything that ridiculous nor do I know anyone whose kids were told about those "rights." That isn't even on the same level as parents actually abusing their kids. I am not talking reasonable discipline, but people having sex with their children or beating them to the point of severe injury. You know, the kinds of things that actually cause people to become messed up.
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Got it!
http://www.therightscoop.com/nypd-detective-we-need-to-repeal-gun-free-school-zones/
Thanks. You do good work.
I've posted it to FB.
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He looks "former" because he's about 400 pounds and has no neck. I expected him to say something in Huttese.
Hilarious!
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Earlier today Fox News had a former NYPD detective who is now a private security consultant and he all but said the same thing about needing armed, plain clothes security at minimum in schools.
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Saw that yesterday.
Actually, seeing a surprising amount of the basic sentiment.
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Yeah, that's a new trend I see coming out since the Aurora shooting. "LBE ='s Body Armor".... ;/
They're STILL slinging that line about the vest the idiot in Aurora was wearing being a "bulletproof vest", despite the fact that the receipt for the shooter's internet order was made freaking public. Any moron capable of clicking a link could see quite plainly that the vest in question was plain black nylon and had lots of pockets - AND THAT'S ALL - but that's not sexy enough for the news, when compared to the lie the media will never admit to.
If they can lie about stuff like this, where does that put us?
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Sure are a lot of We the People petitions being posted in relation to this. Given the administration's propensity for picking and choosing what they respond to, it will be interesting to monitor responses to these:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions
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That guy in Aurora wasn't wearing body armor? ???
Nope. It was proven to be a ~$100 Blackhawk "tactical vest", with no ballistic properties whatsoever. The receipt for the Internet order was published online - can't remember the site now, unfortunately. This naturally got no play whatsoever with the mainstream media, as it made their statements plain as the lies they were.
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Just now on Fox:
Former NYPD detective John Baeza tells the anchor that his solution to school shootings is to eliminate the gun free zones. :O
The anchor, stunned, asks him if he means there should be armed guards at schools. Baeza says that what he's talking about is letting any school staff or others to carry if they want.
Then the anchor asks if the staff should be allowed to use the evil boolits that allowed so many kids to be killed so quick. Baeza says they should be allowed to use whatever they want. That if the principal had been armed, she may have been able to stop the whole deal right off.
John Baeza for president!
Holy cow, someone actually deviated from the Allowable Public Talking-Point line?!? AWESOME!!!
Well done, Mr. Baeza!!
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Holy cow, someone actually deviated from the Allowable Public Talking-Point line?!? AWESOME!!!
Well done, Mr. Baeza!!
Stealth commentary.
Well done, indeed. You could almost see the two grey cells in the reporter's head colliding as he tried to figure out how to unsay what Mr. Baeza had just said.
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i was watching cnn and pierce morgan was pointing to a picture with two hanguns and an ar-15ish rifle. he kept pointing to the rifle and blathering about it being the reason so many people were killed. i wonder if he will retract his statements now that we know it was in the car?
now i am hearing the medical examiner is saying that the kids were killed with multiple rifle rounds. ??? i thought the rifle was left in the car, and only the 2 hanguns were found in the school?
http://news.yahoo.com/conn-school-victims-shot-rifle-multiple-times-205207737.html
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They're STILL slinging that line about the vest the idiot in Aurora was wearing being a "bulletproof vest", despite the fact that the receipt for the shooter's internet order was made freaking public. Any moron capable of clicking a link could see quite plainly that the vest in question was plain black nylon and had lots of pockets - AND THAT'S ALL - but that's not sexy enough for the news, when compared to the lie the media will never admit to.
If they can lie about stuff like this, where does that put us?
Thanks. That's really interesting.
What about the "bullet-resistant leggings" and the other stuff he was supposed to be wearing? Does anyone know what that stuff was? And he was wearing a PASGT helmet, right?
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WTF? I heard the rifle was left in the car.
Were there two rifles, perhaps?
And WTF over the Aurora guy, and the supposed armor? That's good news, I guess. Though it's troublesome that the commentary has been KPOT, groin protector plate, leggings, vest, et cetera. Trying to make CCW seem pointless, though that evidently isn't the case at all.
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Hawkmoon, reply #135, notes that
You could almost see the two grey cells in the reporter's head colliding as he tried to figure out how to unsay what Mr. Baeza had just said.
You put it well. The reporters expression was vastly amusing.
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If you don't approve of Dear Leader you're obviously ill and need to be sent to the
gulag mental hospital until you know the facts.
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And you trust the government to draw that line, and not bar me from owning firearms?
What about the shooters who DON'T show any signs?
Fitz - Almost anything has the potential to be carried to the extreme. One could say that traffic laws lead to gross civil rights violations -and that would be correct sometimes....that doesn't mean that allowing people to drive 100 mph in school zones adds vlaue to our lives, and ensures our freedoms.
I'd say that we need to pick the low hanging fruit, and not ignore those that have the most potential, and means, to do stuff like this. The Aurora shooter is a prime example of this. If a college campus bans a guy because he's a flippin nut job that everyone is afraid of, and is complaining about - chances are, he should get some attention from the guys in white coats.
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Our leaders know no moderation when it comes to guns. You should expect them to vastly overreach and end up prohibiting folks like me
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Thanks. That's really interesting.
What about the "bullet-resistant leggings" and the other stuff he was supposed to be wearing? Does anyone know what that stuff was? And he was wearing a PASGT helmet, right?
I'll have to see if I can find that info again - might be useful to explode some people's ... wrong-headed points of view, by pushing the truth in their faces. I don't have details on the rest of his "armor", because I never looked. Wondering if it was freaking sports gear, frankly, with a paintball "PASGT". I'll post links if I can find it again (or for the first time, as appropriate).
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WTF? I heard the rifle was left in the car.
Were there two rifles, perhaps?
I'm having the same problem. First there were reports that the school was littered with .223 casings, then the medical examiner saying that all the bodies he examined were killed by multiple rifle shots -- but the police clearly indicated that they recovered "the" Bushmaster from his (mother's) car. However, early on there were conflicting reports of three or four weapons, so perhaps there were two rifles.
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Got it!
http://www.therightscoop.com/nypd-detective-we-need-to-repeal-gun-free-school-zones/
Dunno how long the video will remain available, so I made an attempt at transcribing it, if anyone is interested:
Fox News Interview with retired NYPD Detective John Baeza on Saturday, 15 December 2012::
Commentator: But as we take a look at the work that still lies ahead for the investigators, what do they have to do?
Baeza: Well I think what they’re going to try to do is they’re going to try to look for a motive. I mean, that’s what we look for. And there is always a motive. There is always a motive but, if they find one – IF they find one – it may be very, very difficult for anybody to even grasp or to understand. What needs to happen now, and what I really oppose the notion of, is that people want to mourn and I agree with that. I have five children myself. But I also want to be able to take action so that this won’t happen. Three of my children are going to be going to elementary school on Monday. So we need to take some action and, as a police officer, I can tell you that what needs to be done is … these gun-free school zones, that needs to be repealed. We have to have protection there, we have to have the ability for teachers and, you know, people on campuses to be able to defend themselves and to protect these young children.
Commentator: So what you’re talking about is to have someone who is armed and trained inside every school around the country in the event of something like this happening?
Baeza: I’m not talking about, you know, necessarily hiring or having a police state, but I’m talking about allowing teachers and, you know, other personnel that work at the school to have the ability to have a weapon. If that principal – and it’s a very tragic incident – but if that principal had a weapon there may have been a chance to save more children, to save her own life. But we need to take this notion of, you know, not taking action now, we really need to take action now, we need to look at this, take action, and do it, because if you look at the mass murders that we’ve had, most of them – the ones that are on TV all the time – they happen in gun-free zones. And this is something we have to learn and we have to protect our children, and I want to protect my three children that are going to elementary school, so that’s very important to … it should be very important to everybody.
Commentator: Detective, what would you have teachers and educators arm themselves with, and should they have the kind of ammunition that this young man had, that allowed him to kill so many people in three minutes?
Baeza: Sure they should. Sure they should. They should have any ammunition they could want. I mean, ah, the thing here is, the bottom line is when you talk about ammunition or weapons, the bottom line is they need something. And it could be anything – any type of firearm, to save the children. If you were to give me a magic wand and I could change things, I would give that principal or I would have that principal or some of the teachers armed. It could have saved more of the students and staff that were killed, and it’s very important.
Commentator: John Baeza is a former New York City police detective, joining us today with his take on this. Very different from what a lot of people around the country, Sir, are thinking. They might listen to your remedy and scratch their heads a little bit, but you certainly come at this from a career in law enforcement, and we appreciate your coming on and sharing your thoughts with us.
Baeza: Thank you, Rick
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I'm having the same problem. First there were reports that the school was littered with .223 casings, then the medical examiner saying that all the bodies he examined were killed by multiple rifle shots -- but the police clearly indicated that they recovered "the" Bushmaster from his (mother's) car. However, early on there were conflicting reports of three or four weapons, so perhaps there were two rifles.
Update: Just saw a new report that says four HANDGUNS were recovered inside the school, and one AR-15 style "assault weapon" was recovered in the car he drove to the school.
Now I'm REALLY confused.
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Confusion and lack of specifics make it easier to manipulate the situation.
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I've only heard about a Glock and a Sig so far. If there were more pistols maybe one was an AR based one?
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The amount if disinformation put out by the media on this situation is astounding. I saw one outlet call the sig and Glock "revolvers". I got me a good ration of *expletive deleted*it yesterday due to my similar statements on arming and training teachers from some of my "friends" on fB too. Nice to come here and find some common ground. ;)
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Nice to come here and find some common ground. ;)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi6.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy233%2Fbtgoober%2Fposted%2520pix%2Flike_zps268df4e1.png&hash=32fc0b366fe86645b9df7428bb068e571768fa85) Doggy Daddy and a mess of others like this.
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Here's a look at dealing with the kids and how they handle stuff like this. http://shtfschool.com/survival-psychology/traumatized-kids/
The author is some guy who lived through social/political upheaval that involved shooting at your neighbors because they thought the wrong thing. He needs work on overcoming his first language's grammar structure but that does not really detract from the readability. (I apologize for the fact that you are going to be asked to buy his course. He's in the business of making money off of his personal opinions. Good gig if you can get it. =D)
"Grief counseling" is not what folks there need. After losing good employees to PTSD and PTSD-like issues following incidents in the prisons they put together a three-stage mandatory program: 1) go (as soon as possible - no later than 24 hours) as a part of the group (as many as possible of those directly involved - guards, nurses, counselors) to a stress debriefing session - short, sweet, just a place and a chance to hug folks and note that you were glad to still be in one piece and, oh yeah, it sucks that ___ got ___ed. 2) invividual stress debriefing. This was the time and place for folks who never-ever showed emotions to break down and cry. It was allowed, but no pressure was put on anybody to try and force them to "let it all go." 3) formal PTSD counseling - with a bias towards group sessions. Administrative time off was provided for steps 1 and 2, and up to 16 hours was provided for step b3 so people could either come in late or leave early to get to sessions. Step 3 sessions were covered under the agency Employee Assistyance Plan for up to 10 1-hour individual or 20 group sessions.
What are the chances of those kids and teachers getting anything even remotely like that, instead of "You poor victim" therapy? Slim to none, if you ask me.
stay safe.
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I've only heard about a Glock and a Sig so far. If there were more pistols maybe one was an AR based one?
That's my thought....but it might be months before we have a clear picture.
If it was an AR pistol, I wouldn't be surprised if BATFE tries to get all AR/AK- style pistols reclassified as SBR's.....
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Yup, the number of minds pretty much destroyed by this is staggering. Not to mention the whole Christmas stigma and how they will be reminded ever year for the rest of their lives. Sad sad stuff.
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I'm having a discussion on Facebook with another one of my Connecticut relatives. She believes only cops should have guns. So far I've just been working the angle that I'm a well-trained soldier with a carry permit, so what am I worth to her? I think I might be providing too narrow of an argument holding myself up as an example, however.
Normally I don't get involved with discussions like that on Facebook, but I thought I would put a human face on the people she wants to disarm.
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Yes, my two discussions are with friends. Although now they may not like me anymore. :rofl:
No, you're argument is quite valid. There are plenty of vets out there who carry and are quite proficient with their weapons. Probably the majority of the people I know that carry are vets, at my range anyways. If I was a school administrator I'd start looking to hire a few teachers with that kind of background and create somewhat of a quick response type team of 3 or 4 for each of my schools. No safes etc just secretly placed individuals in deep cover.
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That reminds me of some of the combat veterans who were present during the VT massacre. Ready, willing, and able but for a firearm. No reason vets turned teachers should be any different.
Though I recognize the pointlessness of following discussions like this on Reddit, I was surprised by the large number of people who argue against arming teachers with the idea that they're overworked, underpaid, and unstable. ???
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Ready, willing, and able but for a firearm.
Something I never want to be. ;)
No, I mean vets that do recognize the need and are willing to step up to it.
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Update: Just saw a new report that says four HANDGUNS were recovered inside the school, and one AR-15 style "assault weapon" was recovered in the car he drove to the school.
Now I'm REALLY confused.
New article this morning says ONE handgun and two "high powered" rifles.
???
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I'm having a discussion on Facebook with another one of my Connecticut relatives. She believes only cops should have guns. So far I've just been working the angle that I'm a well-trained soldier with a carry permit, so what am I worth to her? I think I might be providing too narrow of an argument holding myself up as an example, however.
Normally I don't get involved with discussions like that on Facebook, but I thought I would put a human face on the people she wants to disarm.
Send her the link to that NYPD cop, and remind her that this school was (literally) a stone's throw from the fire house, so probably also very near the police station. The cops were there in less than five minutes -- and the event was over in less than three. It is illogical to rely on the police, because they cannot assign one officer as a personal bodyguard to each and every citizen. That means, like it or not, we ARE responsible for our own protection.
Teachers with guns could respond in five seconds, not the five minutes it took the police to get there. "Remember, when seconds count the police are only minutes away."
FWIW, I am also a veteran with a carry permit. And I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America from all enemies, foreign and domestic. If she wants to cancel the RKBA, she is a domestic enemy.
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... I got me a good ration of *expletive deleted* yesterday due to my similar statements on arming and training teachers from some of my "friends" on fB too. Nice to come here and find some common ground. ;)
I guess I've got a higher caliber of facebook friends/family :angel: All I'm seeing are expressions of sympathy and pro RKBA slogans.
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Thanks. That's really interesting.
What about the "bullet-resistant leggings" and the other stuff he was supposed to be wearing? Does anyone know what that stuff was? And he was wearing a PASGT helmet, right?
Reminds me of a time awhile back where some college kids I think sold "bullet-resistant" T-shirts. They bought a bunch of plain T-shirts and stenciled bullet-resistant on them. Truth is that all things resist bullets, just some things resist them better than others.
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"Grief counseling" is not what folks there need. After losing good employees to PTSD and PTSD-like issues following incidents in the prisons they put together a three-stage mandatory program: 1) go (as soon as possible - no later than 24 hours) as a part of the group (as many as possible of those directly involved - guards, nurses, counselors) to a stress debriefing session - short, sweet, just a place and a chance to hug folks and note that you were glad to still be in one piece and, oh yeah, it sucks that ___ got ___ed. 2) invividual stress debriefing. This was the time and place for folks who never-ever showed emotions to break down and cry. It was allowed, but no pressure was put on anybody to try and force them to "let it all go." 3) formal PTSD counseling - with a bias towards group sessions. Administrative time off was provided for steps 1 and 2, and up to 16 hours was provided for step b3 so people could either come in late or leave early to get to sessions. Step 3 sessions were covered under the agency Employee Assistyance Plan for up to 10 1-hour individual or 20 group sessions.
What are the chances of those kids and teachers getting anything even remotely like that, instead of "You poor victim" therapy? Slim to none, if you ask me.
stay safe.
This sounds like a good program, at least a good starting point. Some may need more, but I think it makes sense.
Are you a therapist or have you ever been in therapy? I can't speak for what is in CT., but not all therapists dole out tissues, hugs, and meaningless sympathy. In this day and age of limited funds and cost-cutting insurance companies, the emphasis is on 'brief, solution-focused therapy."
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It's times like this I begin to think that there can't possibly be a loving God in this universe
But also, at times like this, we understand the doctrine of hell.
The following words were penned by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, after learning that his son had been wounded in the Civil War. They are, of course, now sung each Christmas.
I heard the bells on Christmas Day
Their old familiar carols play,
And wild and sweet
The words repeat
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!
And thought how, as the day had come,
The belfries of all Christendom
Had rolled along
The unbroken song
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!
It was as if an earthquake rent
The hearth-stones of a continent,
And made forlorn
The households born
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!
And in despair I bowed my head;
"There is no peace on earth," I said,
"For hate is strong,
And mocks the song
Of peace on earth, good will to men!"
Then pealed the bells more loud and deep;
God is not dead; nor doth he sleep!
The Wrong shall fail,
The Right prevail,
With peace on earth, good-will to men!
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Thanks fistful
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/daniel-zimmerman/clackamas-shooter-confronted-by-ccw-holder/
You know why we're not hearing about the Clackamas Mall shooting along with this one in the news?
Because the Clackamas Mall shooter was confronted by a CCW holder and offed himself once confronted.
And the CT shooter kept going until he ran out, because no one confronted him.
Stark truth, for all to see, a week apart from one another. Armed response by lay folks results in far fewer deaths, than "gun free" zones.
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And just like that the WBC sideshow injects themselves where they are neither needed nor wanted.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57559468-93/hackers-target-westboro-baptist-church-after-newtown-threat/?=fbwl (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57559468-93/hackers-target-westboro-baptist-church-after-newtown-threat/?=fbwl)
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And just like that the WBC sideshow injects themselves where they are neither needed nor wanted.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57559468-93/hackers-target-westboro-baptist-church-after-newtown-threat/?=fbwl (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57559468-93/hackers-target-westboro-baptist-church-after-newtown-threat/?=fbwl)
Anyone want to take bets on whether or not there will be an epic beatdown? I think if anything is going to earn them an ass whoopin', it's this. =|
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Anyone want to take bets on whether or not there will be an epic beatdown? I think if anything is going to earn them an ass whoopin', it's this. =|
God hates gamblers I'm not a betting man, but if such did occur, there would at least be one bright spot in all of this.
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post article says he used bushmaster only had 2 pistols and left a shotgun in car. he only used pistol on himself.
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yup, still conflicting info. This is the first I've heard of a SG. First it was two pistols BM in the car. Now the BM is the primary weapon. Who da eff knows. meanwhile 'bama is here. yay. ;/
I will resist the urge to pay the WBC people a visit seeing how's they're so close and convenient.
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/daniel-zimmerman/clackamas-shooter-confronted-by-ccw-holder/
You know why we're not hearing about the Clackamas Mall shooting along with this one in the news?
Because the Clackamas Mall shooter was confronted by a CCW holder and offed himself once confronted.
And the CT shooter kept going until he ran out, because no one confronted him.
Stark truth, for all to see, a week apart from one another. Armed response by lay folks results in far fewer deaths, than "gun free" zones.
It does sound like the CT psycho shot himself when the responders were coming in. If he had met some armed resistance earlier on (private citizen or otherwise) this may have ended with a lot less loss of life.
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/daniel-zimmerman/clackamas-shooter-confronted-by-ccw-holder/
You know why we're not hearing about the Clackamas Mall shooting along with this one in the news?
Because the Clackamas Mall shooter was confronted by a CCW holder and offed himself once confronted.
And the CT shooter kept going until he ran out, because no one confronted him.
Stark truth, for all to see, a week apart from one another. Armed response by lay folks results in far fewer deaths, than "gun free" zones.
That CCW holder does us all proud. Very calm and well spoken in the interview, and it sounds like he did all the right things given the situation at the mall as he saw it. I don't expect to see much about this in the MSM. The video deserves wide distribution, especially given current events.
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/daniel-zimmerman/clackamas-shooter-confronted-by-ccw-holder/
You know why we're not hearing about the Clackamas Mall shooting along with this one in the news?
Because the Clackamas Mall shooter was confronted by a CCW holder and offed himself once confronted.
And the CT shooter kept going until he ran out, because no one confronted him.
Stark truth, for all to see, a week apart from one another. Armed response by lay folks results in far fewer deaths, than "gun free" zones.
He didn't run out. Latest reports indicate that he fired about 100 rounds, and that he was carrying a LOT of ammunition. It now appears that he shot himself when he heard the police cars arriving. (How typical.)
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yup, still conflicting info. This is the first I've heard of a SG. First it was two pistols BM in the car. Now the BM is the primary weapon. Who da eff knows. meanwhile 'bama is here. yay. ;/
I will resist the urge to pay the WBC people a visit seeing how's they're so close and convenient.
This doesn't look like an AR in the trunk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLrxSgkqJQc
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This doesn't look like an AR in the trunk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLrxSgkqJQc
Looks vaguely like a CX Storm.
styay safe.
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This sounds like a good program, at least a good starting point. Some may need more, but I think it makes sense.
Are you a therapist or have you ever been in therapy? I can't speak for what is in CT., but not all therapists dole out tissues, hugs, and meaningless sympathy. In this day and age of limited funds and cost-cutting insurance companies, the emphasis is on 'brief, solution-focused therapy."
Steve,
I am a social worker - of the old-school Settlement House variety. I have been doing "brief, solution-focused therapy" since I was about 4 years old. =D I am now retired from gainful employment but still consider myself a social worker - it's a calling, not a job.
I have been "in therapy" a few times - because I needed assistance in seeing the trees for the forest. Some of that therapy was in offices with comfy chairs (nobody uses a couch any more) and some of it was across a bar, a kitchen table, or the front seat of a car. The only things that tissue-doling, hand-holding, hug-giving "therapy" do are provide a long chain of medical insurance reimbursement and promote a sense of victimhood. Victims are what the newspapers call those that did not make it - the ones that did are called survivors. 'That wich does not kill me has failed in its mission. It also needs to watch its back from now on.'
Stuff happens. Most of the time stuff is not "good stuff". Most of that is not "bad stuff" - merely neutral stuff. When bad stuff happens you have two choices: get over it and get past it, or let it stop you in your tracks and control you for the rest of your days. Getting "over" something like this school shooting is going to be difficult and will depend a lot on how you define "getting over." Getting past it is easier, although not a walk in the sun. (Folks like Collin Goddard and his father Andrew have not gotten over or gotten past the Va Tech shooting - it's all and eveything in and about their lives now. Gabreiel Giffords and her husband have certainly gotten past her shooting, and may even have gotten over it.)
stay safe.
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He didn't run out. Latest reports indicate that he fired about 100 rounds, and that he was carrying a LOT of ammunition. It now appears that he shot himself when he heard the police cars arriving. (How typical.)
And so much for hoping I can get even slightly unbiased news out of FoxNews anymore:
Authorities said Lanza was carrying an arsenal of hundreds of rounds of deadly ammunition -- enough to kill nearly every student in the school if given enough time, raising the chilling notion that the bloodbath could have been even worse. Lanza shot himself in the head when he heard police approaching the classroom where he was gunning down helpless children.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/17/president-obama-leads-interfaith-prayer-vigil-in-newtown-conn/#ixzz2FJpBcbx3
He was carrying the special "deadly" ammunition.
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Looks vaguely like a CX Storm.
styay safe.
Saiga-12.
At about 0:01 they pull the mag out, and a few seconds later, a big fat 12ga shell comes out the ejection port.
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This doesn't look like an AR in the trunk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLrxSgkqJQc
AK or SKS from cycling it via a left right side handle. Probably some other possibilities too.
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And so much for hoping I can get even slightly unbiased news out of FoxNews anymore:
He was carrying the special "deadly" ammunition.
Does anyone know what the "deadly" ammo was? Was it ball? HP? SS109? SP? Frangible?
For some reason, given the fact the mother bought it, I have a sneaking suspicion it was standard 55gr ball...which is hard to call especially "deadly" compared to other types.
Ironic that frangible ammunition, if that's what it was, is REQUIRED by many places for SAFETY
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Uh oh,
Reports that the mother was a "survivalist"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249185/Nancy-Lanza-Did-paranoid-gun-crazed-mother-trigger-Sandy-Hook-Connecticut-killing-spree.html
There goes the next straw.
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Steve,
I am a social worker - of the old-school Settlement House variety. I have been doing "brief, solution-focused therapy" since I was about 4 years old. =D I am now retired from gainful employment but still consider myself a social worker - it's a calling, not a job.
I have been "in therapy" a few times - because I needed assistance in seeing the trees for the forest. Some of that therapy was in offices with comfy chairs (nobody uses a couch any more) and some of it was across a bar, a kitchen table, or the front seat of a car. The only things that tissue-doling, hand-holding, hug-giving "therapy" do are provide a long chain of medical insurance reimbursement and promote a sense of victimhood. Victims are what the newspapers call those that did not make it - the ones that did are called survivors. 'That wich does not kill me has failed in its mission. It also needs to watch its back from now on.'
Stuff happens. Most of the time stuff is not "good stuff". Most of that is not "bad stuff" - merely neutral stuff. When bad stuff happens you have two choices: get over it and get past it, or let it stop you in your tracks and control you for the rest of your days. Getting "over" something like this school shooting is going to be difficult and will depend a lot on how you define "getting over." Getting past it is easier, although not a walk in the sun. (Folks like Collin Goddard and his father Andrew have not gotten over or gotten past the Va Tech shooting - it's all and eveything in and about their lives now. Gabreiel Giffords and her husband have certainly gotten past her shooting, and may even have gotten over it.)
stay safe.
Thanks. I apologize if I came off as a smart ass. That was not my intent.
I no longer work in that field, though I still hold my license. Unfortunately, there probably are some clinicians that would encourage people to remain a victim. In some cases, victims make a career out of being a victim and don't even try to point this out.
I hope these people do get through this. I can't imagine losing a child.
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And so much for hoping I can get even slightly unbiased news out of FoxNews anymore:
He was carrying the special "deadly" ammunition.
The commentator in that interview with NYDP Detective Baeza intimated that. After his head exploded over the notion of arming teachers, he asked Baeza if the teachers should have the same kind of ammunition "that allowed this young man to kill so many people so quickly." As if three or four rounds of any kind of .223 isn't enough to take out a first grader.
Another voice of reason, crying out in the wilderness:
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2012/12/17/county-police-chief-recommends-arming-school-personnel/
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Gabreiel Giffords and her husband have certainly gotten past her shooting, and may even have gotten over it.)
Her husband hasn't. He has become a hard-core gun grabber.
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I no longer work in that field, though I still hold my license. Unfortunately, there probably are some clinicians that would encourage people to remain a victim. In some cases, victims survivors make a career out of being a victim and don't even try to point this out.
FIFY
I think you missed the point that vaskidmark was trying to make. The victims are dead. Those who remain are either survivors (those who were there) or bystanders (those who were somewhere else).
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FIFY
I think you missed the point that vaskidmark was trying to make. The victims are dead. Those who remain are either survivors (those who were there) or bystanders (those who were somewhere else).
I understand the difference. One can be the victim of a crime and still be alive.
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I think LTC Dave Grossman is right on the mark:
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/
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My thoughts and prayers go to the families of the murdered dead, and for the souls of same.
I have a question that might be rhetorical, or might try to bite off more than this topic can chew. It seems that most of the commentary I've seen outside of my own echo chamber focuses on the lethality of an inanimate object, with very little discussion of the monster who wielded said object. While I haven't read a lot about the monster, and it's likely that we won't know much more soon (or at all), how much do you think his actions are related to the current state of our institutions in this country?
I'll preface this with two statements: I haven't read much of anything about his or his family's history; also, I realize that asking these questions probably expose my own confirmation bias to look for the solutions that I can more easily internalize. Regardless:
We don't know what sort of family life he had growing up. In a nature vs. nurture argument, and considering my perception that the core family unit is weaker today than it has been in the past, how might his upbringing have contributed to or prevented this tragedy? His family had guns; was he taught to respect their power and use them properly? Were his family responsible gun owners, in that they taught their children well, and did they take appropriate gun security measures when it was clear that the murderer was a potential threat to himself, or to others?
Similarly, if his family had been involved in a church or similar community organization, could that have reduced the likelihood of this occurring? Was there an opportunity for a group like this to reinforce (or expose him to) concepts of grace, morality, evil? Or was he simply evil to begin with? Does evil simply exist, making it more difficult for most people to accept the senselessness of this happening?
With regard to school, did his education play a part? Did his teachers notice problems, but not report them, either due to legal considerations or apathy? Did the target school have responses in place to prevent the scale of this tragedy that weren't carried out, or did they have a "victim mentality"? In general, do our schools today, through their omission of things like God, guns, morality, etc. provide fertile ground to young minds for this sort of behavior?
In general, I guess the current state of society has been bugging me, and the above are meant to put this tragedy into those terms. If the people in our country, in general, have fewer marriages, weaker families, less faith, and poorer educations, can our country continue to be a beacon to the world? If people here, in general, don't know the difference between a natural human right and a governmental permission, do any of our rights, 2nd Amendment included, have a hope of persisting, or will we slide into serfdom? Bummer, I know, but that's my rosy view of the world these days.
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Uh oh,
Reports that the mother was a "survivalist"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249185/Nancy-Lanza-Did-paranoid-gun-crazed-mother-trigger-Sandy-Hook-Connecticut-killing-spree.html
And a homeschooler. Some talk radio twit was ranting about that aspect, suggesting that it somehow contributed to Adam's state of mind.
The media is in full-blown witchhunt mode.
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And a homeschooler. Some talk radio twit was ranting about that aspect, suggesting that it somehow contributed to Adam's state of mind.
The media is in full-blown witchhunt mode.
Most of the reports I have seen are unconfirmed. We just don't know enough, nor will we for quite some time. As much as I would like to know why, I am willing to accept the fact that there are some people capable of extreme evil and leave it at that.
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I think LTC Dave Grossman is right on the mark:
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/
Key (IMHO) quote:
Pointing around the room as he spoke, Grossman continued, “But you’ve still got those fire sprinklers, those fire exit signs, fire hydrants outside, and fire trucks nearby! Are these fire guys crazy? Are these fire guys paranoid? NO! This fire guy is our A+ student! Because this fire guy has redundant, overlapping layers of protection, not a single kid has been killed by school fire in the last 50 years!
Obviously, a buzzer at the front door with no way to stop an armed aggressor from shooting out the GLASS sidelight and opening the door is not redundant layers of security. That's putting all your eggs in one basket, and assuming that the nice mass murderer will politely press the button, and leave quietly when the person on the inside tells him he can't come in. Putting a metal detector inside that glass door doesn't add anything. Yeah, it helps spot the kid trying to sneak in a knife, but it doesn't do anything against a gunman armed with multiple firearms.
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B238,
Here's what I found Re: his home life, mother and her guns.
http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-mother-kept-trials-home-life-hidden-010414000.html
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Hawk: You and I know that... and so does the rest of the country.
The problem lies in the extreme dichotomy between the two directions possible to go to solve these problems.
1. Individual protection. Teacher/janitor/principal/secretary/visiting adults. All can carry guns.
2. Militarization. Harden the school, one or more armed law enforcement staff, micromanagement of all entrance/egress points.
One side vehemently hates #1, one side vehemently hates #2.
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Hawk: You and I know that... and so does the rest of the country.
The problem lies in the extreme dichotomy between the two directions possible to go to solve these problems.
1. Individual protection. Teacher/janitor/principal/secretary/visiting adults. All can carry guns.
2. Militarization. Harden the school, one or more armed law enforcement staff, micromanagement of all entrance/egress points.
One side vehemently hates #1, one side vehemently hates #2.
Not to mention the cost. 1 costs the taxpayers nothing. 2 would cost billions.
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Not to mention the cost. 1 costs the taxpayers nothing. 2 would cost billions.
Doing #2 would also truly introduce a situation where MANY more parents would pull their kids out of school.
I'd never let my kids attend a school that is set up like a prison ward. I'll shop for a school that reflects my values. And that angers everyone that wants militarization of schools, because those same people want to have a monopoly on the education system of this country.
Frankly... fine. Keep the lowest-common-denominator public schools as prison wards. Militarize the heck out of them.
And watch as the number of people who home school, church school, and private school goes from the sub-5% range to the 25% range.
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B238,
Here's what I found Re: his home life, mother and her guns.
http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-mother-kept-trials-home-life-hidden-010414000.html
Thanks very much for that, scout, although reading it has raised more questions for me. It seems like, while he was withdrawn, socially awkward, etc., there's nothing in that piece that points to a dramatic or violent psychological or personality disorder. I'm a layman when it comes to psychology, though, and while I know a couple of people with high-functioning autism and Asperger's, I'm not familiar enough with them to know if 1) they can progress along a spectrum to manifest as violent, or 2) if having autism/Asperger's makes it more difficult to diagnose and/or treat a violent mental problem.
Is there anyone with experience in the above who could enlighten me?
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Steve,
I am a social worker - of the old-school Settlement House variety. I have been doing "brief, solution-focused therapy" since I was about 4 years old. =D I am now retired from gainful employment but still consider myself a social worker - it's a calling, not a job.
I have been "in therapy" a few times - because I needed assistance in seeing the trees for the forest. Some of that therapy was in offices with comfy chairs (nobody uses a couch any more) and some of it was across a bar, a kitchen table, or the front seat of a car. The only things that tissue-doling, hand-holding, hug-giving "therapy" do are provide a long chain of medical insurance reimbursement and promote a sense of victimhood. Victims are what the newspapers call those that did not make it - the ones that did are called survivors. 'That which does not kill me has failed in its mission. It also needs to watch its back from now on.'
Stuff happens. Most of the time stuff is not "good stuff". Most of that is not "bad stuff" - merely neutral stuff. When bad stuff happens you have two choices: get over it and get past it, or let it stop you in your tracks and control you for the rest of your days. Getting "over" something like this school shooting is going to be difficult and will depend a lot on how you define "getting over." Getting past it is easier, although not a walk in the sun. (Folks like Collin Goddard and his father Andrew have not gotten over or gotten past the Va Tech shooting - it's all and everything in and about their lives now. Gabreiel Giffords and her husband have certainly gotten past her shooting, and may even have gotten over it.)
stay safe.
I am neither a social worker nor a licensed therapist. Moreover, I have no formal training in the psych fields.
I have, however, spent ten years in the field as a volunteer, working with rehab cases, educational cases (both advanced and remedial), and personal enhancement. This does not include the additional five years working as an actual teacher.
Steve responded to one of my posts in another thread using the term "anti-psychiatry."
I will cop to that.
I'll spare you the anecdotes, of which there are many, but I will assert that the "science" is fundamentally flawed. They (the psych professions) have had five decades of unfettered access to the educational system, even unto state/federal funding for their initiatives. The foundation philosophy behind the psych sciences is broken, using nothing more than their work product as a measuring stick. I'm not talking anecdotal "hey, therapy helped me, my family, or my friend," I'm talking broadly, across the entire educational spectrum. With the access they've had to the institution and to the curriculum, the US educational system ought to be their crown jewel. If that's their best effort -- and it bloody well ought to be -- then I deem them a comprehensive failure.
I realize that this is essentially spitting into the wind.
They have a foothold, institutionalized state acceptance and funding, and have attained a position of unquestioned authority -- to the point where questioning their validity is grounds for being labeled crazy -- so to call them incompetent or to hint that they might, as a branch of medicine, be considered charlatans, is to court ridicule and shunning.
And yet, in spite of that, and in spite of the risk to what little credibility I might have, I assert that they are making it up as they go, have no provable universal methodology, and are still experimenting on humans.
Place your faith in them if you will; heck, you may even find one that's good at helping and has a grasp of how to improve a person's condition, but I can't look upon the cultural impact of the psych fields and bring myself to have any truck with them.
For some reason though, despite their repeated failures to predict, anticipate, or even interdict violence in their patients, the government and the public at large seem to have no problem with repeated catastrophic failures. "Guns" are the problem. "Culture" is the problem. "Parents" are the problem. "Home schooling" is the problem. "Survivalist mentality" is the problem. "Video games" are the problem. However, the quality and nature of their "treatment" is never considered or contemplated as having any contributory influence.
I would submit that there's more than a correlation.
So, yes, you may consider me numbered among the "anti-psychiatry" camp.
Think what you will of me, I can't endorse, support, or recommend them.
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the following is purely speculation........what if the shooters mindset was such that he wanted to save his mother and the little children the pain and suffering of living through the 2012 apocolypse? if his mother was a 2012 prepper, she may have indoctrinated him with irrational fears such that he may have had concerns for the well being of the ones he shot. is that any crazier than saying he is just psychotic?
on another note, does CT already have a high cap ban like NY? i haven't seen any difinititive write up about the size of the magazines he was using. the only mention i have read was a reporter stating that his gun could have up to a 30 round mag.
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No mag cap restrictions after the fed AWB expired. We do have a Baby AWB , no tech nines, no uzis etc
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Thanks very much for that, scout, although reading it has raised more questions for me. It seems like, while he was withdrawn, socially awkward, etc., there's nothing in that piece that points to a dramatic or violent psychological or personality disorder. I'm a layman when it comes to psychology, though, and while I know a couple of people with high-functioning autism and Asperger's, I'm not familiar enough with them to know if 1) they can progress along a spectrum to manifest as violent, or 2) if having autism/Asperger's makes it more difficult to diagnose and/or treat a violent mental problem.
Is there anyone with experience in the above who could enlighten me?
To the best of my knowledge (and personal experience) autistics, if violent at all, do so not consciously, and mainly to themselves (banging head, etc for the bad cases). Diagnosis of other issues...hmm... Well given that high functioning types are extremely logical, and don't really hide anything, I would say it probably makes it easier to see if they are violent. But in general, to the best of my knowledge, there is minimal correlation between true autism and violent acts against others, they don't think that way.
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Thanks very much for that, scout, although reading it has raised more questions for me. It seems like, while he was withdrawn, socially awkward, etc., there's nothing in that piece that points to a dramatic or violent psychological or personality disorder. I'm a layman when it comes to psychology, though, and while I know a couple of people with high-functioning autism and Asperger's, I'm not familiar enough with them to know if 1) they can progress along a spectrum to manifest as violent, or 2) if having autism/Asperger's makes it more difficult to diagnose and/or treat a violent mental problem.
Is there anyone with experience in the above who could enlighten me?
From what I have seen, the answer to both your questions is yes.
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From what I have seen, the answer to both your questions is yes.
From what I've seen, I don't agree.
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From what I have seen in the research (some of it conflicting) is that there are issues with violence in people with violence, including some studies that show higher levels of domestic violence. One of the problems is an inability of some people with aspergers to understand and appreciate the feelings of others. I guess a better answer would be no to 1 and Yes to 2. They can be very hard to treat, IMO, though I will admit that developmental delays was not my specialty.
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From my own observations, people with Asperger's tend to be impulsive in their rare instances of violent behavior and are not well-organized enough to plan & carry out something like this incident. I'm wondering if he had another diagnosis (paranoid schitzophrenia, for example) that may have contributed.
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From what I have seen in the research (some of it conflicting) is that there are issues with violence in people with violence, including some studies that show higher levels of domestic violence. One of the problems is an inability of some people with aspergers to understand and appreciate the feelings of others. I guess a better answer would be no to 1 and Yes to 2. They can be very hard to treat, IMO, though I will admit that developmental delays was not my specialty.
Treat for THEIR problems, but the question was does it make it difficult to diagnose OTHER problems.
Or, to out a slightly different spin on this, and put in perspective why I'm touchy about this one, ill rephrase the above:
Treat for OUR problems. Tread lightly please.
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I see no reason why one problem (autism) couldn't act as "camouflage" for another (violent tendencies), if the first problem is severe enough.
Obviously I'm not a mental-health professional. But it's fairly easy to see the possibility.
Also: we don't know what other circumstances existed. There could have been other factors (say, illegal drugs*) that caused an unforeseen shift in personality...
* not to say I think he was doing such. Just remembering my brother when he'd smoke pot, which everyone claims "just mellows people out". He would get belligerent and violent
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* not to say I think he was doing such. Just remembering my brother when he'd smoke pot, which everyone claims "just mellows people out". He would get belligerent and violent
It's the reefer madness!
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*shrug*
It's a well-known fact that not every person is going to react the same way to a drug (legal or illegal).
If the perp had a known psychological issue, then it;s entirely possible he was on some form of drug, if not several. Could VERY easily have created a time bomb, if you will.
How do you address that issue? You really can't, since there's no way of predicting the problem
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Treat for THEIR problems, but the question was does it make it difficult to diagnose OTHER problems.
Or, to out a slightly different spin on this, and put in perspective why I'm touchy about this one, ill rephrase the above:
Treat for OUR problems. Tread lightly please.
What do you mean?
I would say that a person with Aspergers and some other disorder could be difficult to treat, but it would depend entirely on what it was and the individual in question.
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What do you mean?
I assume he means he has Asperger's (or a different high-functioning form of autism), or PTSD, or some other "mental defect", and doesn't like being lumped in the same group as homicidal maniacs, or a target for having any of his civil rights revoked without due process.
I don't think it'd be hard to find a psychiatrist somewhere who would claim that anyone who wants to purchase a firearm is delusional at best ad probably crazy, and disqualified from owning one. That's one of the slippery slopes we are on; make everybody a prohibited person (except high-ranking government employees and their cronies, of course.) Guns are perfectly legal, you just can't have one.
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I assume he means he has Asperger's (or a different high-functioning form of autism), or PTSD, or some other "mental defect", and doesn't like being lumped in the same group as homicidal maniacs, or a target for having any of his civil rights revoked without due process.
I don't think it'd be hard to find a psychiatrist somewhere who would claim that anyone who wants to purchase a firearm is delusional at best ad probably crazy, and disqualified from owning one. That's one of the slippery slopes we are on; make everybody a prohibited person (except high-ranking government employees and their cronies, of course.) Guns are perfectly legal, you just can't have one.
Periodically, over the last five or six years, I've warned of the "mental health" gambit.
And now I'm watching as one pundit after another offers "better mental health monitoring" as an "alternative" to more gun control.
Fabulous. Complete finesse of constitutional protections. No accountability. Doesn't matter how much you spend on an attorney, you can't argue "medicine" with a doctor.
Whatever you do regarding the Second Amendment, don't fall for the "mental health" gambit.
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A common thread among most, but not all of the spree shooters is a feeling of being an outsider, and having a very low social status in the microcosm of school. Often the people are so bad off that they can't even get membership or become important in the lowest status groups, goths, geeks, the AV squad... whatever.
They are usually trying to lash out at communities or institutions, not so much at particular individuals. Underneath the superficial motivations, or the ideological trappings the shooters may give, if any, it's the planning of the attack and keeping the secret from the rest of us becomes the only empowering thing in their life. And carrying it out becomes all they have. Actual execution of their plans often are unsatisfying, and that's why most mass shooters have several weapons and large supplies of ammo they never even wind up using. Despite how far gone they are, most of these shooters still need to create barrier mechanisms, masks, disguises, costumes, even earplugs to try and distance themselves from personal interactions. And as noted, most commit suicide as soon as any significant opposition presents itself.
Aspergers could certainly be the nucleus of that, creating insurmountable social interaction problems that lead to the downward spiral, however, just as millions of other introverted people, outcast people, unpopular people didn't commit a mass killing and never will, so did the vast 99.999% majority of people with Aspergers or other spectrum disorders.
Mass killings/attacks actually seem to happen with about the same frequency per-capita in Europe, and parts of Asia (like the large number of Chinese school-knifings...) and America with it's RKBA is not really an outlier, in frequency of mass killings, or average number of victims at all.
The biggest factor in preventing mass shootings/spree killings is like many things, often unsatisfyingly simple, but difficult to execute at the same time. It's a matter of friends (if any) family, and mental health workers catching these people in the internalized hidden planning stage and intervening. Trying to catch these people at the NICS portion of "the process" is way too late. And will victimize thousands, maybe millions of people who are a threat to no one. And of course, someone could bypass NICS completely by theft or legal/illegal private sales.
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Periodically, over the last five or six years, I've warned of the "mental health" gambit.
And now I'm watching as one pundit after another offers "better mental health monitoring" as an "alternative" to more gun control.
Fabulous. Complete finesse of constitutional protections. No accountability. Doesn't matter how much you spend on an attorney, you can't argue "medicine" with a doctor.
Whatever you do regarding the Second Amendment, don't fall for the "mental health" gambit.
I agree. We should be wary of this. The problem is that the people that are likely to write these bills are not going to know much about mental illness and will likely be way to broad.
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I changed one little thing but best take ever. I'm going to share this with a few people.
A common thread among most, but not all of the spree shooters is a feeling of being an outsider, and having a very low social status in the microcosm of school. Often the people are so bad off that they can't even get membership or become important in the lowest status groups, goths, geeks, the AV squad... whatever.
They are usually trying to lash out at communities or institutions, not so much at particular individuals. Underneath the superficial motivations, or the ideological trappings the shooters may give, if any, it's the planning of the attack and keeping the secret from the rest of us becomes the only empowering thing in their life. And carrying it out becomes all they have. Actual execution of their plans often are unsatisfying, and that's why most mass shooters have several weapons and large supplies of ammo they never even wind up using. Despite how far gone they are, most of these shooters still need to create barrier mechanisms, masks, disguises, costumes, even earplugs to try and distance themselves from personal interactions. And as noted, most commit suicide as soon as any significant opposition presents itself.
Aspergers could certainly be the nucleus of that, creating insurmountable social interaction problems that lead to the downward spiral, however, just as millions of other introverted people, outcast people, unpopular people didn't commit a mass killing and never will, so did the vast 99.999% majority of people with Aspergers or other spectrum disorders.
Mass killings/attacks actually seem to happen with about the same frequency per-capita in Europe, and parts of Asia (like the large number of Chinese school-knifings...) and America with it's RKBA is not really an outlier, in frequency of mass killings, or average number of victims at all.
The biggest factor in preventing mass shootings/spree killings is like many things, often unsatisfyingly simple, but difficult to execute at the same time. It's a matter of friends (if any) family, and mental health workers catching these people in the internalized hidden planning stage and intervening. Trying to catch these people at the NICS portion of "the process" is way too late. And will victimize thousands, maybe millions of people who are a threat to no one. And of course, someone could bypass NICS completely by theft or legal/illegal private sales.
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What do you mean?
I would say that a person with Aspergers and some other disorder could be difficult to treat, but it would depend entirely on what it was and the individual in question.
What I mean is that people who have forms of HFA or aspergers, while potentially difficult to treat FOR THE ISSUES OF THAT DISORDER (since it isn't technically a problem of the psyche like depression, but rather an physical neurological issue like brain chemistry or wiring) tend to be extremely logical, and in nearly all cases effectively incapable of hiding feelings or behaviors...most typically, these people are seen as having virtually no tact, are "too open" about their own feelings, etc.
So what I mean is since the original second question that you said "yes" to was if HFA or aspergers could make it difficult to diagnose or treat OTHER problems that are psychological, I believe the answer to be "no", as if anything, other issues (depression, psychosis, etc) are likely to be MORE obvious.
The same thing that makes those folks seemingly incapable of reliably recognizing emotions in others also makes their own emotions difficult to hide, "they wear their emotions on their sleeve" is a common thread--hiding ones emotions or feelings requires the person to have the ability to instinctively recognize emotions in others.
Now, truly autistic (NOT HFA or aspergers) is a different story, given the severe communication difficulties that are the fundamental outward symptom, it is difficult to diagnose other issues, but not because they are hiding them, but because they can't communicate anything. There the outward signs of anger, sadness, etc. are extremely magnified, but present as an uncoordinated physical response (near catatonic states, head banging, screaming, etc.) not as planned conscious activities like attacking others--it's more personal fight or flight.
The root issue is that it is in fact a spectrum, but at both ends of the spectrum, while the issues are difficult to treat, they either prevent the type of coordinated attack others behavior people are attempting to associate here, or make the internal emotions VERY apparent, so recognition of psychological disorders is likely easier, (for HFA) not harder.
It's kind of like lying...in order to effectively lie, you also need to be somewhat capable of recognizing lying. It's why people with sociopathic tendencies are also extremely good at both hiding those tendencies, and recognizing them in others. You need to be empathetic in order to hide ones own feelings, and it is quite well recognized that the dominant symptom that can present in most spectrum disorders is an apparent lack of empathy.
My points remain:
1. Violence of the type of concern here in spectrum disorders is either impossible or extremely unlikely unless coupled with other psychological disorders, and if it is represented in severe autistic cases, it effectively never takes the form of coordinated assault, but rather a physical "get away from me" defensive or self-destructive action. Most folks tend to be very introverted because they feel that it is impossible to interact without "hurting" the FEELINGS of others (eg being tactless, and then analytically realizing that their words created negative feelings in others), so they tend to withdraw rather than be seen as broken.
2. Because of the inability to recognize emotion, it is usually easy to see it in these folks, as they are unlikely to be able to hide it, thus in HFA cases, it is not more difficult to recognize other psychological problems. In severe autistic cases, it IS more difficult to recognize them verbally, but again that's rooted in a communication problem, and any emotions are EASY to see in actual behavior. So what I mean is its likely harder to diagnose psychological problems in NORMAL people than in HFA people, because normal people know how to hide it.
In any case, the obsessive aspects of HFA make concealment of anything extremely difficult...if an HFA person is obsessed with causing harm, they will be VERY obsessed, and likely (without their knowledge) be VERY open about their feelings or intentions. Remember, these are people who "talk without listening or caring if you are listening".
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I assume he means he has Asperger's (or a different high-functioning form of autism), or PTSD, or some other "mental defect", and doesn't like being lumped in the same group as homicidal maniacs, or a target for having any of his civil rights revoked without due process.
I don't think it'd be hard to find a psychiatrist somewhere who would claim that anyone who wants to purchase a firearm is delusional at best ad probably crazy, and disqualified from owning one. That's one of the slippery slopes we are on; make everybody a prohibited person (except high-ranking government employees and their cronies, of course.) Guns are perfectly legal, you just can't have one.
What I mean is EVERYONE has at some point, however brief, due to interaction or life events exhibited psychosocial traits that point to any number of "disqualifying" disorders. Seven stages of grief anyone? Isn't one of them anger?
Take a person who had a friend murdered or raped, and examine them at their worst moment of anger.
The problem with this isn't just the slippery slope, the problem is that EVERYONE exhibits negative psychosocial traits at some point, and so people need to be really careful about how "diagnoses" are applied. The brain and psyche are plastic, and always changing.
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I have a plastic brain. That explains everything! Thanks birdman!. ;)
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The problem with this isn't just the slippery slope, the problem is that EVERYONE exhibits negative psychosocial traits at some point, and so people need to be really careful about how "diagnoses" are applied. The brain and psyche are plastic, and always changing.
I agree. If you look at most diagnostic criteria, you will find that many people don't satisfy the requirements. Depression requires a significant duration. Many people that claim to be depressed may be said, but they are not "depressed."
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Mass killings/attacks actually seem to happen with about the same frequency per-capita in Europe, and parts of Asia (like the large number of Chinese school-knifings...) and America with it's RKBA is not really an outlier, in frequency of mass killings, or average number of victims at all.
Can you point me to documentation to support that.
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I have a plastic brain. That explains everything! Thanks birdman!. ;)
Is it recyclable?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.all-recycling-facts.com%2Fimages%2FPP5.jpg&hash=5a4164e62f1dc2a1090c8eb96ae7473ba353280a)
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/police-find-no-evidence-connecticut-gunman-was-on-medication/?intcmp=trending
We have had some comments about the merits and demerits of psychology and psychotropic medications as they relate to this case. Of note, a search of the home did not reveal that Mr. Lanza was taking any medication. I am sure that toxicology tests are also being done, and it will be interesting to see if those results are released.
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Is it recyclable?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.all-recycling-facts.com%2Fimages%2FPP5.jpg&hash=5a4164e62f1dc2a1090c8eb96ae7473ba353280a)
Wow, I don't know. One can only hope! :cool:
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Musing . . .
What about NORMAL people?
Hmmm. Probably should be its own thread.
Whenever I see a discussion of psychiatry or psychology, the word "diagnose" (or "diagnosis") inevitably joins the stream.
Why is it I never see discussions of application for normal people?
Kids, most of them anyway, are pretty much normal people, and yet teachers have to take [n] credits of psych sciences as part of their curriculum for certification.
Are they supposed to "diagnose" something? Or is it that they are supposed to have some sort of manipulative advantage over their charges?
Are they using the subject(s) to improve children's ability to think or study? Is that why the overwhelming trend for SAT scores is a rising graph? ;/
What's the psych sciences strategy for normal people? Or is the assumption that, if you're involved on the "client" side you're pretty much no longer classified as "normal?"
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psych studies, in terms of teaching, pertain more to you understanding what's going on in the minds of the avg kid in the grade group you teach. Can that aid you in manipulating them. Possibly. But the bigger question becomes, will you use this power for good or evil? :O
[popcorn]
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Does the answer lie in the SAT scores trend?
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psych studies, in terms of teaching, pertain more to you understanding what's going on in the minds of the avg kid in the grade group you teach. Can that aid you in manipulating them. Possibly. But the bigger question becomes, will you use this power for good or evil? :O
[popcorn]
Oh great. Now the secret is out. Just don tell him about the secret handshake.
Seriously, IIRC, teachers took developmental psych and maybe one other class. They mostly learned about how children process information and learn. They didn't take anything about diagnosing. Those classes are graduate level.
I can't say that I ever learned anything that would seriously help me in manipulating people.
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I can't say that I ever learned anything that would seriously help me in manipulating people.
You saying that makes me feel better. ;/
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You saying that makes me feel better. ;/
All part of my plan.
>:D
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New information suggests (as in ... not yet confirmed) that Mrs. Lanza had reached the end of her ability to handle her son, and had applied to a court (probate, presumably) for a writ of conservatorship preparatory to having him involuntarily institutionalized. The son/shooter apparently found out about this. The theory is that he decided his mother cared more about the kids in the school than she did about him, and so he set out to get revenge.
It is, at this stage, only a theory, but IMHO it's probably a good one if it can be confirmed that Nancy had applied for conservatorship (or that her son might have had reason to believe she had). From his perspective, he would have felt betrayed by his mother. He would have (probably) felt he had no way out. If he did nothing, he would be institutionalized. If he acted out in some angry but insignificant way ... he would still be institutionalized. He was (in his mind) looking at a dead-end street no matter what he did, so why NOT take out his betraying mother and as many of the kids he felt had replaced him in her affections ... and then just off himself once the game reached checkmate?
I'm thinking it makes sense.
And IF it holds up, it means all this talk about gun regulation doesn't mean diddly. What do we have here? We have a freakin' genius who wants to destroy the kids in the school. Let's remember that Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris set two 20-pound propane bombs at Columbine. Miraculously, they didn't go off, or (according to the investigators at the scene) the death toll would have been in the hundreds rather than in the teens. So if Adam Lanza, boy genius who hates his mother and the school, can't use a gun to extract his revenge ... he's certainly smart enough to construct a bomb that WILL detonate on command.
Once again -- the problem is not the guns, the problem is the people who would attack a school and kill small children. If this theory holds up, I would say the problem is that Nancy Lanza waited too long to do something about Adam, and didn't act decisively (or circumspectly) enough when she did finally decide to do something.
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It can be exceedingly difficult to get help for some people and most states don't make it easy to institutionalize people (which is a good thing). While she may have waited too long, it is also possible that she was doing the best she could under the circumstances.
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http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/18/15994142-family-newtown-boys-favorite-teacher-died-cradling-him-in-her-arms?lite
I just about wept upon reading this.
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It can be exceedingly difficult to get help for some people and most states don't make it easy to institutionalize people (which is a good thing). While she may have waited too long, it is also possible that she was doing the best she could under the circumstances.
This.....when seconds count, effective mental health treatment is months away....
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This.....when seconds count, effective mental health treatment is months away....
I worked for the county back in the early 2000's and after a decade of budget cuts, we had 2 clinicians in the children and families unit. Two. For the entire county. There were a few other private providers, but if you didn't have the cash (or insurance with mental health coverage), you were SOL.
I don't know what it is like in CT, but here there are fewer and fewer facilities that do long term in-patient mental health care.
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I worked for the county back in the early 2000's and after a decade of budget cuts, we had 2 clinicians in the children and families unit. Two. For the entire county. There were a few other private providers, but if you didn't have the cash (or insurance with mental health coverage), you were SOL.
I don't know what it is like in CT, but here there are fewer and fewer facilities that do long term in-patient mental health care.
Connecticut has enough private facilities that a family with an income at the Lanza's level would be able to find a facility. The problem seems to be (again, if that story proves to be correct) that Mrs. Lanza didn't institutionalize Adam while he was a minor. Once he hit eighteen it became a totally different ball game.
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Connecticut has enough private facilities that a family with an income at the Lanza's level would be able to find a facility. The problem seems to be (again, if that story proves to be correct) that Mrs. Lanza didn't institutionalize Adam while he was a minor. Once he hit eighteen it became a totally different ball game.
I agree, but it is easy to say what she should have done, after the fact.
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Connecticut has enough private facilities that a family with an income at the Lanza's level would be able to find a facility. The problem seems to be (again, if that story proves to be correct) that Mrs. Lanza didn't institutionalize Adam while he was a minor. Once he hit eighteen it became a totally different ball game.
Kids tend to develop (or display) a whole bunch of new problems between age 18-22 =(
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Yes.
That's why we don't let them vote until they're 25.
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Yes.
That's why we don't let them vote until they're 25.
Just speaking from experience ... :(
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Just speaking from experience ... :(
Just so.
And now you understand the real reason for lowering the voting age to 18. The whole "old enough to die for our country, should be old enough to vote" crap was nothing more than an emotional smokescreen.
When you're courting the emotional vote, you want your electorate to be as young as you can possibly get away with.
You will recall that there have been occasional efforts to bring the voting age down even more -- to 16, or even 14.
I, personally, would be fine with raising the voting age to 25. Or even 30.
Now that I think on it, I recall that I even wrote this up over on the C2 wiki more than ten years ago.
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I agree, but it is easy to say what she should have done, after the fact.
Absolutely. It has been said that hindsight is 20/20. Sadly, Mrs. Lanza doesn't get a Mulligan.
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Kids tend to develop (or display) a whole bunch of new problems between age 18-22 =(
Yeah, but it has already been reported by people who babysat for this kid when he was younger that Mrs. Lanza told the sitters to never turn their back on him -- to not even go to the bathroom.
The kid had more issues than just Asperger's. It is laudable on one level that the mother tried to deal with it, but on another level it's tragic that she couldn't deal with it, and waited a couple of years too long to acknowledge that.
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The whole "old enough to die for our country, should be old enough to vote" crap was nothing more than an emotional smokescreen.
Not to thread drift, because that is not what we are about here on APS :angel:, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that.
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Yeah, but it has already been reported by people who babysat for this kid when he was younger that Mrs. Lanza told the sitters to never turn their back on him -- to not even go to the bathroom.
The kid had more issues than just Asperger's. It is laudable on one level that the mother tried to deal with it, but on another level it's tragic that she couldn't deal with it, and waited a couple of years too long to acknowledge that.
Where is/was Mr Lanza?
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^^^ The Lanzas divorced back in 2008, and I believe he is a corporate executive in the NYC area. The divorce mediator in their case commented on how united they were in caring for their son. Mr. Lanza was paying something like $ 13,000 per month in alimony, which allowed Mrs. Lanza to stay home full time and care for their son.
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Where is/was Mr Lanza?
Divorced from Mrs. Lanza since 2008 (or was it 2009?), remarried and living down-state in Stamford.
Reason given for the divorce was "irreconcilable differences," which is boilerplate for no-fault divorces in Connecticut. The reporter who first informed Mr. Lanza that his son had been involved in a school shooting described Mr. Lanza's reaction as shocked. I don't recall the exact words used, but it struck me that he did NOT seem to be indicating "surprise." Having said in a previous post that I should stop engaging in speculation, I will now go on to speculate that son Adam and what to do with son Adam may well have been the driving force behind the divorce. Three or four years ago Adam would have been 16 or 17 -- rapidly approaching the age beyond which the parents could not -- as parents -- have him institutionalized without a court order. Remember, we're talking about a kid for whom babysitters were told "Never turn your back on him." (Gotta wonder how they ever found babysitters.) What would YOU have done?
So perhaps the break-up of the marriage was an irreconcilable difference of opinion as to what to do and how to deal with Adam. Mommy insisted she didn't want him institutionalized, so Daddy finally said, "Okay, if that's the way you want it ... you deal with it. I'm out of here."
Purely speculation.
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Divorced from Mrs. Lanza since 2008 (or was it 2009?), remarried and living down-state in Stamford.
Reason given for the divorce was "irreconcilable differences," which is boilerplate for no-fault divorces in Connecticut. The reporter who first informed Mr. Lanza that his son had been involved in a school shooting described Mr. Lanza's reaction as shocked. I don't recall the exact words used, but it struck me that he did NOT seem to be indicating "surprise." Having said in a previous post that I should stop engaging in speculation, I will now go on to speculate that son Adam and what to do with son Adam may well have been the driving force behind the divorce. Three or four years ago Adam would have been 16 or 17 -- rapidly approaching the age beyond which the parents could not -- as parents -- have him institutionalized without a court order. Remember, we're talking about a kid for whom babysitters were told "Never turn your back on him." (Gotta wonder how they ever found babysitters.) What would YOU have done?
So perhaps the break-up of the marriage was an irreconcilable difference of opinion as to what to do and how to deal with Adam. Mommy insisted she didn't want him institutionalized, so Daddy finally said, "Okay, if that's the way you want it ... you deal with it. I'm out of here."
Purely speculation.
Now you put that with the speculation that Mommy was getting ready to have sonny boy committed.
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Just so.
And now you understand the real reason for lowering the voting age to 18. The whole "old enough to die for our country, should be old enough to vote" crap was nothing more than an emotional smokescreen.
When you're courting the emotional vote, you want your electorate to be as young as you can possibly get away with.
You will recall that there have been occasional efforts to bring the voting age down even more -- to 16, or even 14.
I, personally, would be fine with raising the voting age to 25. Or even 30.
Now that I think on it, I recall that I even wrote this up over on the C2 wiki more than ten years ago.
Well I, for one, would have been real gorram pissed off if folks wouldn't let me vote after soaking up IEDs and taking AK fire from jihadis for 18 months
>:-(
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Well I, for one, would have been real gorram pissed off if folks wouldn't let me vote after soaking up IEDs and taking AK fire from jihadis for 18 months
>:-(
Apparently responsible enough to be behind the wheel of 1.5 billion dollars worth of ship and responsible for the safety of 3000 people, but not responsible enough to have a beer. ;/ That's a whole 'nother can of worms though.
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Well I, for one, would have been real gorram pissed off if folks wouldn't let me vote after soaking up IEDs and taking AK fire from jihadis for 18 months
>:-(
OK.....voting age at 25 unless you are active-duty or honorably discharged military....
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OK.....voting age at 25 unless you are active-duty or honorably discharged military....
Sweet! Then 18-24 year shouldn't have to pay taxes either.
It might be incredibly shocking to some people, but there are still a lot of 18-24 year olds in the trades, family businesses, or in business for themselves who are making good money, starting families, buying homes, and being productive contributors to society.
Those who join the Military are forced to grow up quickly on a normal expected timeline or on that track already, there are plenty of others who do it without the military.
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OK.....voting age at 25 unless you are active-duty or honorably discharged military....
I don't think so. At age 16, I was already serving as a volunteer firefighter and EMT, saving lives. I was in paramedic training by the time I was 18 and saving more lives on a daily basis. By age 20, I was a hazmat training officer for the state fire administration. Was my service any less than Private Snuffy in the motor pool?
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You people need to quit bringing facts into a purely emotional, knee-jerk reactionary discussion..... ;/
If you want stats, then we should abolish women's suffrage for the sake of world peace....the US has been involved in more military actions since women started voting....
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You people need to quit bringing facts into a purely emotional, knee-jerk reactionary discussion..... ;/
If you want stats, then we should abolish women's suffrage for the sake of world peace....the US has been involved in more military actions since women started voting....
yes
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It's always the women... :facepalm:
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Suffrage hell... we should have never given them shoes!
*ducks for cover*
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Suffrage hell... we should have never given them shoes!
*ducks for cover*
Shoes? We should have stopped at fig leaves
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Shoes? We should have stopped at fig leaves
Fig leaves!? Prude! :angel:
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Whoa, larry correia hit a home run with his blog post on this
Once again, I agree with him.
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/
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Whoa, larry correia hit a home run with his blog post on this
Once again, I agree with him.
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/
This is one of the most cogently-written pieces on the subject that it has been my pleasure to read. I especially respected how he stated up front that he was not a mental health expert, and would therefore not be commenting on that.
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Whoa, larry correia hit a home run with his blog post on this
Once again, I agree with him.
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/
I had one individual tell me that these types of guns are designed to slaughter the maximum number of people possible as quickly as possible… Uh huh… Which is why every single police department in America uses them, because of all that slaughtering cops do daily. Cops use them for the same reason we do, they are handy, versatile, and can stop an attacker quickly in a variety of circumstances.
Exactly what I've been thinking the last few days.
Spare me the whole, “You won’t be happy until everybody has nuclear weapons” reductio ad absurdum. It says arms, as in things that were man portable. And as for the founding fathers not being able to see foresee our modern arms, you forget that many of them were inventors, and multi shot weapons were already in service. Not to mention that in that day, arms included cannon, since most of the original artillery of the Continental Army was privately owned.
Isn't he contradicting himself there?
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Isn't he contradicting himself there?
The cannon of the day were man portable, to an extent. A few burly fellows could pick up the tongue of a gun carriage and move it around as needed, and the cannons on ships would also moved into position by hand (albeit using the mechanical advantage of block and tackle). I suppose in that way they were all "man portable."
In modern terms a Russian ZPU-1 towed 14.5mm anti-aircraft heavy machine gun can be stripped down in 5 minutes and transported by 10 men on foot. We've encountered them in the mountains of Afghanistan where the Taliban strips them down, doesn't bother to bring the road wheels and other unnecessary towing parts, and hikes them up to a mountain top from which to shoot at FOB's and helicopters.
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Exactly what I've been thinking the last few days.
Isn't he contradicting himself there?
Kind of, but he may be saying if the FFs were ok with people having cannons, then we should be ok with machine guns, "assault rifles", and other similar weapons.
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Kind of, but he may be saying if the FFs were ok with people having cannons, then we should be ok with machine guns, "assault rifles", and other similar weapons.
Tench Coxe of Pennsylvania, an anti-Federalist:
The power of the sword, say the minority..., is in the hands of Congress. My friends and countrymen, it is not so, for The powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from sixteen to sixty. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every terrible implement of the soldier are the birthright of Americans. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but where, I trust in God, it will always remain, in the hands of the people.
The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.
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First he says that "arms" refers to things that are "man portable." Then he says that it includes cannon. Cannon aren't any more man-portable than some of the smaller nukes, are they? =|
Mainly, I just don't see how "arms" has any limitations. When "arms" refers to weapons, it means weapons - no qualifications.
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First he says that "arms" refers to things that are "man portable." Then he says that it includes cannon. Cannon aren't any more man-portable than some of the smaller nukes, are they? =|
Mainly, I just don't see how "arms" has any limitations. When "arms" refers to weapons, it means weapons - no qualifications.
With basically a few (count on one hand) exceptions, nukes are not single-man portable, or really even separable into pieces that are.
Even the little baby ones are still unit loads of 70-100lbs or more,
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First he says that "arms" refers to things that are "man portable." Then he says that it includes cannon. Cannon aren't any more man-portable than some of the smaller nukes, are they? =|
Mainly, I just don't see how "arms" has any limitations. When "arms" refers to weapons, it means weapons - no qualifications.
As we edge towards an old and thread consuming in house libertarian argument.
("Why shouldn't I have a nuke, if it's clean and only used against agressors and for earthmoving?")
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As we edge towards an old and thread consuming in house libertarian argument.
("Why shouldn't I have a nuke, if it's clean and only used against agressors and for earthmoving?")
We'll compromise. No nukes. Hell, I'll even throw in biological and chemical weapons. Happy? ;)
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With basically a few (count on one hand) exceptions, nukes are not single-man portable, or really even separable into pieces that are.
Even the little baby ones are still unit loads of 70-100lbs or more,
So, like a cannon then? =)
Lee,
I'm not saying that the 2A protects a right to own nukes, just that "arms" means a whole lot more than small arms.
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So, like a cannon then? =)
Lee,
I'm not saying that the 2A protects a right to own nukes, just that "arms" means a whole lot more than small arms.
Eh, I will. You just wont ever be able to afford one, and not due to government intervention. The parts are just damned expensive to refine and make.
I could fashion a crude Hiroshima yield (20KT) device with 50-60kg of of Oralloy (80% enriched U235). No neutron reflectors, no pit enrichment with deuterium and tritium, etc. (which would all allow me to make it far smaller and with less material), but damned if I could ever afford that much HEU on my salary. It just would never happen.
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Just go around looking for donations. Start with Iran. ;)
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Just go around looking for donations. Start with Iran. ;)
I think the answer would be "nuke insurance" assuming one lived in such an an-cap/libertarian place.
You pay your premiums, call in a strike if needed, company verifies the need through satellites/drones, and if approved, theyr send a missile, off, or maybe the drone on scene drops it.
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I think the answer would be "nuke insurance" assuming one lived in such an an-cap/libertarian place.
You pay your premiums, call in a strike if needed, company verifies the need through satellites/drones, and if approved, theyr send a missile, off, or maybe the drone on scene drops it.
I like how you think.
Since the navies of the world have co-opted us on piracy insurance, maybe you've identified a new market segment for APS to explore.
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http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_106_665 (http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_106_665)
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Does anyone know where to find statistics for gun sales by model? I am trying to figure out how common the AR15 platform is compared to other rifles.
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Suffrage hell... we should have never given them shoes!
*ducks for cover*
HEY!!!! That's my line !!!
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"A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping; Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more." --Jeremiah 31:15 (also Matthew 2:18)
Ran across this verse again this morning in the Christmas story. :'( That is all.
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More proof that the Bible is a myth. No way they could have killed all those children without assault weapons and high capacity magazine clips.
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More proof that the Bible is a myth. No way they could have killed all those children without assault weapons and high capacity magazine clips.
What we need is sword control. Only the Babylonian government should be allowed to have swords.
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What we need is sword control. Only the Babylonian government should be allowed to have swords.
What about ark of the covenant control? Man portable WMD's? Those can be stolen and sold on the black market!
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What about ark of the covenant control? Man portable WMD's? Those can be stolen and sold on the black market!
Ask the Philistines how stealing the ark worked out for them. Not pretty.
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Ask the Philistines how stealing the ark worked out for them. Not pretty.
That just proves the need for more Ark control!!!!
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That just proves the need for more Ark control!!!!
Agreed....just look at how peaceful the world has been since arks were banned....
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I think I'll go write an article on "modern musketry."
I dunno how I'll structure it, but I find it hopelessly ironic that in a "thoroughly modern" society, where communications, news, and entertainment ride the very latest technologies, where the movement and markets have jet-age transportation, where the our movements, whereabouts, and conversations are now "public," privacy having been trumped by "conveniences" built into the high-tech things we buy, from cars to cell phones, the business of self defense, personal security, and resistance to tyranny are somehow supposed to be constrained to primitive devices from two centuries ago.
There's this premise that seems to have coalesced around the concept that somehow "assault weapons" are this über-modern latter day invention and just happened in the last decade or two, and that's why we've seen this sudden rash of spree shootings in gun-free zones. "Automatic" weapons are just "too modern" and nobody "needs" anything that advanced for "legitimate" purposes.
Our "über-modern" plus-five machines of doom are based on designs that are, in most cases, over a hundred years old, with some of the more recent ones based on designs that are merely 50 and 60 years old, enhanced only by advances in metallurgy, high-strength polymers, ergonomics, and optics. The really modern stuff is solely in the hands of the military, and costs staggering sums to build and maintain.
No, our small arms are not excessively modern and, despite the protestations that, notwithstanding that the word "musket" never once appears in the CONUS or in the BoR, the framers somehow meant for that specific piece of technology to remain frozen in time, the primitive arms permitted the common man today fall short of the original intent: that "every terrible implement of the soldier" is "the birthright of Americans."
It is not the terrible implement which is new.
What is new is mass school/mall/church shootings.
It must be late. My mind is starting to wander again, and I find myself reviewing the "talking points" being chanted by the usual suspects. There is so much wrong with each of the assertions, that the only possible response to them in general is "mu" (see here (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?UnaskTheQuestion) for clarification on mu (http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/M/mu.html), or "unask (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)#.22Unasking.22_the_question)").
"Why does anyone NEED a machine gun for self defense?" --> "Mu!" ("I reject your premise, your question is not answerable as stated." Alternatively, "your question is broken.")
Go sleepy bye now. Come back and read tomorrow. Maybe rewrite, maybe expand. Maybe delete.
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The anti-gun folks have glorified what they call "assault weapons" to the point that yes they are the first choice of violent nutcases :facepalm:
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The anti-gun folks have glorified what they call "assault weapons" to the point that yes they are the first choice of violent nutcases :facepalm:
So are Glock pistols. Maybe we should just simplify the new AWB and ban Glocks.
[exit, stage left]
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The anti-gun folks have glorified what they call "assault weapons" to the point that yes they are the first choice of violent nutcases :facepalm:
This.
And a ban will just make it worse, elevating military-styled semi-automatic rifles as a talisman of power to these disaffected people, and the "forbidden fruit" factor many times over.
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It's always the women... :facepalm:
The world would be a much safer place if they just banned men.
I leave it up to y'all to decide whether I'm joking or not.
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I leave it up to y'all to decide whether I'm joking or not.
"Y'all" individually, or do you want us to vote?
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The world would be a much safer place if they just banned men.
I leave it up to y'all to decide whether I'm joking or not.
;)
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It must be late. My mind is starting to wander again, and I find myself reviewing the "talking points" being chanted by the usual suspects. There is so much wrong with each of the assertions, that the only possible response to them in general is "mu" (see here for clarification on mu, or "unask").
I like it! It seems to be related to my response, ""What does your question really mean?"
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Newtown parents don't want the police to leave. They must be as crazy as Wayne LaPierre.
http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Newtown-parents-demand-police-presence-at-schools-4180701.php
I didn't know the Glock he had with him was a 10 mm. Probably not a cartridge that shows up in the evidence locker very often.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/us/connecticut-lanza-guns/index.html
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From fisty's article:
Leidlein emphasized that what the teachers and staff at Sandy Hook Elementary did on that harrowing day was nothing less than a "heroic" act.
What did the teachers and staff do that was heroic? I know they got shot... did they get shot attempting to combat Lanza? Or did they just get shot?
I'm very skeptical of anyone labeling a dead person a "hero" any more in our media agenda driven world. 90% or more of those that receive this title, do not deserve it.
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From fisty's article:
What did the teachers and staff do that was heroic? I know they got shot... did they get shot attempting to combat Lanza? Or did they just get shot?
I'm very skeptical of anyone labeling a dead person a "hero" any more in our media agenda driven world. 90% or more of those that receive this title, do not deserve it.
The principal and the school psychologist, who were the first two people killed, did try to intercept the shooter as he entered the school. Heroic, perhaps, but also dumb -- two unarmed women against a guy armed with a semi-automatic rifle. The results were predictable.
Some of the teachers did try to put themselves between the kids and the shooter. It didn't make any difference.
IMHO the hero at Sandy Hook was a janitor. I watched an interview with one of the teachers' aides. She said when she and her teacher realized they should lock the classroom door, they discovered that neither of them had the key. A custodian came through, locked the doors in that corridor, and (she said) stood guard in the corridor. He was not named, I haven't seen any reference to it other than that interview, but -- if true -- that man deserves a medal.
Found it -- it wasn't easy: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/2012/12/19/tales-heroism-sandy-hook-all-i-was-hearing-was-pop-pop-pop-pop-and-it-wasnt-stopping
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According to what's been reported, some teachers and staff did attempt to confront Lanza, or physically shielded their students.
Of course, they were not terribly successful, being unarmed.
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The world would be a much safer place if they just banned men.
I leave it up to y'all to decide whether I'm joking or not.
Well, that idea has the benefit that it would actually work. If all men are banned, in 100 years or so all man-made violence, crime, and murder would end, along with everything else man-made. Enacting that sort of ban might be even more difficult than banning guns.
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The conspiracy nuts are are out in force. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx9GxXYKx_8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx9GxXYKx_8)
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One of my best friends, someone I have always considered quite rational, made the suggestion that SH was staged by the govt as a stepping stone to more gun control. It was all I could do to keep my jaw from dropping. ;/
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One of my best friends, someone I have always considered quite rational, made the suggestion that SH was staged by the govt as a stepping stone to more gun control. It was all I could do to keep my jaw from dropping. ;/
Well...if anyone had suggested back in say 2000 that the US government would facilitate the smuggling of weapons to Mexican drug cartels in order to attack the Second Amendment, what do you think your reaction would've been then? =|
Edit; forgot this: [tinfoil]
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My govt smuggling weapons? yea, I can sure as hell believe that. But I'm not clear on how it was an attack on the 2nd amendment.
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Was supposed to have given them political ammunition, so to speak. Atleast that's what I believe. I don't believe they did it just for teh Evulz.
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Fast & Furious was simple in concept.
There had been several "reports" (assertions) that "more than 90% of the guns" used in the drug cartel violence came from the US. This was supposed to establish the meme that "the Second Amendment is killing babies in Mexico."
On actual investigation by people trying to verify this "statistic" it was found that guns of US origin accounted for a small fraction of a percent of the actual evil-violence-guns.
The FedGov, not wishing to lose traction on this, decided to "salt the mine" so to speak, by actively channeling guns into Mexico through known straw buyers. They monitored the purchases, and when FFLs called in to report suspicious buys, FedGov told them "go ahead and make the sale." Once the sale was made, no further tracking was done of those weapons.
It was to be only a matter of time before "American Gunz!!!" started showing up at murder scenes in quantities that would support the "90% of guns used in violence ..." meme.
What went wrong? US Border Patrol agent gets killed with one of those guns.
BATFE whistle blowers step forward. FFLs involved in the F&F buys step forward.
FedGov resorts to covering its butt. Internal documents and leaks make it clear they were not only willing to have kids die for this to work, they were counting on it -- kids had to die to achieve the objective.
Imagine their surprise and joy when Sandy Hook fell into their laps.
Or is that just a little too convenient?
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Imagine their surprise and joy when Sandy Hook fell into their laps.
Or is that just a little too convenient?
At the very least, sandyhook is the hotttest of Obama's wet dreams come true.
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I'm digging in and refusing to even allow the debate to be framed by the gun grabbers.
Right off the bat I refuse to even grant that the proliferation of firearms are related to our violent crime at all.
I transition to who is committing the violent crimes and where are the preponderance of violent crimes taking place?
Violent criminals don't need guns to be violent, the public should have access to guns to protect themselves from these violent criminals.
I frame the second amendment as the human right to self defense.
Generally I stay away from the "I can have my toys because the constitution says so" or the "I need my guns to protect me from our government" line of reasoning.
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I'm digging in and refusing to even allow the debate to be framed by the gun grabbers.
Right off the bat I refuse to even grant that the proliferation of firearms are related to our violent crime at all.
You'd think that particular argument would be a non-starter for them, what with guns up and crimes down, for the past twenty-some years. :facepalm: Of course, that would matter, if people paid attention.