Author Topic: School Shooting at CT Elementary School  (Read 54316 times)

vaskidmark

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #175 on: December 17, 2012, 06:05:38 AM »
This doesn't look like an AR in the trunk: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLrxSgkqJQc



Looks vaguely like a CX Storm.

styay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

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They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

vaskidmark

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #176 on: December 17, 2012, 06:26:57 AM »
This sounds like a good program, at least a good starting point.  Some may need more, but I think it makes sense.

Are you a therapist or have you ever been in therapy?  I can't speak for what is in CT., but not all therapists dole out tissues, hugs, and meaningless sympathy.  In this day and age of limited funds and cost-cutting insurance companies, the emphasis is on 'brief, solution-focused therapy."

Steve,

I am a social worker - of the old-school Settlement House variety.  I have been doing "brief, solution-focused therapy" since I was about 4 years old. =D  I am now retired from gainful employment but still consider myself a social worker - it's a calling, not a job.

I have been "in therapy" a few times - because  I needed assistance in seeing the trees for the forest.  Some of that therapy was in offices with comfy chairs (nobody uses a couch any more) and some of it was across a bar, a kitchen table, or the front seat of a car.  The only things that tissue-doling, hand-holding, hug-giving "therapy" do are provide a long chain of medical insurance reimbursement and promote a sense of victimhood.  Victims are what the newspapers call those that did not make it - the ones that did are called survivors.  'That wich does not kill me has failed in its mission.  It also needs to watch its back from now on.'

Stuff happens.  Most of the time stuff is not "good stuff".  Most of that is not "bad stuff" - merely neutral stuff.  When bad stuff happens you have two choices: get over it and get past it, or let it stop you in your tracks and control you for the rest of your days.  Getting "over" something like this school shooting is going to be difficult and will depend a lot on how you define "getting over."  Getting past it is easier, although not a walk in the sun.  (Folks like Collin Goddard and his father Andrew have not gotten over or gotten past the Va Tech shooting - it's all and eveything in and about their lives now.  Gabreiel Giffords and her husband have certainly gotten past her shooting, and may even have gotten over it.)

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Ben

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #177 on: December 17, 2012, 09:21:18 AM »
He didn't run out. Latest reports indicate that he fired about 100 rounds, and that he was carrying a LOT of ammunition. It now appears that he shot himself when he heard the police cars arriving. (How typical.)

And so much for hoping I can get even slightly unbiased news out of FoxNews anymore:

Quote
Authorities said Lanza was carrying an arsenal of hundreds of rounds of deadly ammunition -- enough to kill nearly every student in the school if given enough time, raising the chilling notion that the bloodbath could have been even worse. Lanza shot himself in the head when he heard police approaching the classroom where he was gunning down helpless children.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/17/president-obama-leads-interfaith-prayer-vigil-in-newtown-conn/#ixzz2FJpBcbx3

He was carrying the special "deadly" ammunition.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #178 on: December 17, 2012, 09:30:22 AM »
Looks vaguely like a CX Storm.

styay safe.

Saiga-12.

At about 0:01 they pull the mag out, and a few seconds later, a big fat 12ga shell comes out the ejection port.
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lee n. field

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #179 on: December 17, 2012, 09:35:50 AM »
This doesn't look like an AR in the trunk:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLrxSgkqJQc



AK or SKS from cycling it via a left right side handle.  Probably some other possibilities too.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 10:35:44 PM by lee n. field »
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birdman

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #180 on: December 17, 2012, 09:52:27 AM »
And so much for hoping I can get even slightly unbiased news out of FoxNews anymore:

He was carrying the special "deadly" ammunition.

Does anyone know what the "deadly" ammo was?  Was it ball? HP? SS109? SP? Frangible?
For some reason, given the fact the mother bought it, I have a sneaking suspicion it was standard 55gr ball...which is hard to call especially "deadly" compared to other types.

Ironic that frangible ammunition, if that's what it was, is REQUIRED by many places for SAFETY

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #181 on: December 17, 2012, 09:57:14 AM »

SteveS

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #182 on: December 17, 2012, 10:09:59 AM »
Steve,

I am a social worker - of the old-school Settlement House variety.  I have been doing "brief, solution-focused therapy" since I was about 4 years old. =D  I am now retired from gainful employment but still consider myself a social worker - it's a calling, not a job.

I have been "in therapy" a few times - because  I needed assistance in seeing the trees for the forest.  Some of that therapy was in offices with comfy chairs (nobody uses a couch any more) and some of it was across a bar, a kitchen table, or the front seat of a car.  The only things that tissue-doling, hand-holding, hug-giving "therapy" do are provide a long chain of medical insurance reimbursement and promote a sense of victimhood.  Victims are what the newspapers call those that did not make it - the ones that did are called survivors.  'That wich does not kill me has failed in its mission.  It also needs to watch its back from now on.'

Stuff happens.  Most of the time stuff is not "good stuff".  Most of that is not "bad stuff" - merely neutral stuff.  When bad stuff happens you have two choices: get over it and get past it, or let it stop you in your tracks and control you for the rest of your days.  Getting "over" something like this school shooting is going to be difficult and will depend a lot on how you define "getting over."  Getting past it is easier, although not a walk in the sun.  (Folks like Collin Goddard and his father Andrew have not gotten over or gotten past the Va Tech shooting - it's all and eveything in and about their lives now.  Gabreiel Giffords and her husband have certainly gotten past her shooting, and may even have gotten over it.)

stay safe.

Thanks.  I apologize if I came off as a smart ass.  That was not my intent. 

I no longer work in that field, though I still hold my license.  Unfortunately, there probably are some clinicians that would encourage people to remain a victim.  In some cases, victims make a career out of being a victim and don't even try to point this out.

I hope these people do get through this.  I can't imagine losing a child.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #183 on: December 17, 2012, 10:51:31 AM »
And so much for hoping I can get even slightly unbiased news out of FoxNews anymore:

He was carrying the special "deadly" ammunition.

The commentator in that interview with NYDP Detective Baeza intimated that. After his head exploded over the notion of arming teachers, he asked Baeza if the teachers should have the same kind of ammunition "that allowed this young man to kill so many people so quickly." As if three or four rounds of any kind of .223 isn't enough to take out a first grader.

Another voice of reason, crying out in the wilderness:

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2012/12/17/county-police-chief-recommends-arming-school-personnel/
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 04:45:49 PM by Hawkmoon »
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Hawkmoon

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #184 on: December 17, 2012, 10:54:53 AM »
Gabreiel Giffords and her husband have certainly gotten past her shooting, and may even have gotten over it.)

Her husband hasn't. He has become a hard-core gun grabber.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #185 on: December 17, 2012, 10:58:47 AM »
I no longer work in that field, though I still hold my license.  Unfortunately, there probably are some clinicians that would encourage people to remain a victim.  In some cases, victims survivors make a career out of being a victim and don't even try to point this out.

FIFY

I think you missed the point that vaskidmark was trying to make. The victims are dead. Those who remain are either survivors (those who were there) or bystanders (those who were somewhere else).
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SteveS

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #186 on: December 17, 2012, 11:35:26 AM »
FIFY

I think you missed the point that vaskidmark was trying to make. The victims are dead. Those who remain are either survivors (those who were there) or bystanders (those who were somewhere else).

I understand the difference.  One can be the victim of a crime and still be alive. 
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Scout26

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #187 on: December 17, 2012, 01:43:27 PM »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
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Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
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Bolonium238

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #188 on: December 17, 2012, 02:42:51 PM »
My thoughts and prayers go to the families of the murdered dead, and for the souls of same. 

I have a question that might be rhetorical, or might try to bite off more than this topic can chew.  It seems that most of the commentary I've seen outside of my own echo chamber focuses on the lethality of an inanimate object, with very little discussion of the monster who wielded said object.  While I haven't read a lot about the monster, and it's likely that we won't know much more soon (or at all), how much do you think his actions are related to the current state of our institutions in this country?

I'll preface this with two statements:  I haven't read much of anything about his or his family's history; also, I realize that asking these questions probably expose my own confirmation bias to look for the solutions that I can more easily internalize.  Regardless:

We don't know what sort of family life he had growing up.  In a nature vs. nurture argument, and considering my perception that the core family unit is weaker today than it has been in the past, how might his upbringing have contributed to or prevented this tragedy?  His family had guns; was he taught to respect their power and use them properly?  Were his family responsible gun owners, in that they taught their children well, and did they take appropriate gun security measures when it was clear that the murderer was a potential threat to himself, or to others?

Similarly, if his family had been involved in a church or similar community organization, could that have reduced the likelihood of this occurring?  Was there an opportunity for a group like this to reinforce (or expose him to) concepts of grace, morality, evil?  Or was he simply evil to begin with?  Does evil simply exist, making it more difficult for most people to accept the senselessness of this happening?

With regard to school, did his education play a part?  Did his teachers notice problems, but not report them, either due to legal considerations or apathy?  Did the target school have responses in place to prevent the scale of this tragedy that weren't carried out, or did they have a "victim mentality"?  In general, do our schools today, through their omission of things like God, guns, morality, etc. provide fertile ground to young minds for this sort of behavior?

In general, I guess the current state of society has been bugging me, and the above are meant to put this tragedy into those terms.  If the people in our country, in general, have fewer marriages, weaker families, less faith, and poorer educations, can our country continue to be a beacon to the world?  If people here, in general, don't know the difference between a natural human right and a governmental permission, do any of our rights, 2nd Amendment included, have a hope of persisting, or will we slide into serfdom?  Bummer, I know, but that's my rosy view of the world these days.

Angel Eyes

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #189 on: December 17, 2012, 02:58:50 PM »
Uh oh,
Reports that the mother was a "survivalist"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249185/Nancy-Lanza-Did-paranoid-gun-crazed-mother-trigger-Sandy-Hook-Connecticut-killing-spree.html

And a homeschooler.  Some talk radio twit was ranting about that aspect, suggesting that it somehow contributed to Adam's state of mind.

The media is in full-blown witchhunt mode.

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SteveS

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #190 on: December 17, 2012, 03:09:56 PM »
And a homeschooler.  Some talk radio twit was ranting about that aspect, suggesting that it somehow contributed to Adam's state of mind.

The media is in full-blown witchhunt mode.


Most of the reports I have seen are unconfirmed.  We just don't know enough, nor will we for quite some time.  As much as I would like to know why, I am willing to accept the fact that there are some people capable of extreme evil and leave it at that.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #191 on: December 17, 2012, 04:56:07 PM »
I think LTC Dave Grossman is right on the mark:

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/

Key (IMHO) quote:

Quote from: LTC Grossman
Pointing around the room as he spoke, Grossman continued, “But you’ve still got those fire sprinklers, those fire exit signs, fire hydrants outside, and fire trucks nearby! Are these fire guys crazy? Are these fire guys paranoid? NO! This fire guy is our A+ student! Because this fire guy has redundant, overlapping layers of protection, not a single kid has been killed by school fire in the last 50 years!

Obviously, a buzzer at the front door with no way to stop an armed aggressor from shooting out the GLASS sidelight and opening the door is not redundant layers of security. That's putting all your eggs in one basket, and assuming that the nice mass murderer will politely press the button, and leave quietly when the person on the inside tells him he can't come in. Putting a metal detector inside that glass door doesn't add anything. Yeah, it helps spot the kid trying to sneak in a knife, but it doesn't do anything against a gunman armed with multiple firearms.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 04:59:17 PM by Hawkmoon »
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Scout26

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #192 on: December 17, 2012, 05:01:39 PM »
B238,

Here's what I found Re: his home life, mother and her guns.

http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-mother-kept-trials-home-life-hidden-010414000.html
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #193 on: December 17, 2012, 05:05:30 PM »
Hawk:  You and I know that... and so does the rest of the country.

The problem lies in the extreme dichotomy between the two directions possible to go to solve these problems.

1. Individual protection.  Teacher/janitor/principal/secretary/visiting adults.  All can carry guns.
2. Militarization.  Harden the school, one or more armed law enforcement staff, micromanagement of all entrance/egress points.


One side vehemently hates #1, one side vehemently hates #2.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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SteveS

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #194 on: December 17, 2012, 05:17:35 PM »
Hawk:  You and I know that... and so does the rest of the country.

The problem lies in the extreme dichotomy between the two directions possible to go to solve these problems.

1. Individual protection.  Teacher/janitor/principal/secretary/visiting adults.  All can carry guns.
2. Militarization.  Harden the school, one or more armed law enforcement staff, micromanagement of all entrance/egress points.


One side vehemently hates #1, one side vehemently hates #2.

Not to mention the cost.  1 costs the taxpayers nothing.  2 would cost billions. 
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #195 on: December 17, 2012, 05:26:33 PM »
Not to mention the cost.  1 costs the taxpayers nothing.  2 would cost billions. 

Doing #2 would also truly introduce a situation where MANY more parents would pull their kids out of school.

I'd never let my kids attend a school that is set up like a prison ward.  I'll shop for a school that reflects my values.  And that angers everyone that wants militarization of schools, because those same people want to have a monopoly on the education system of this country.


Frankly... fine.  Keep the lowest-common-denominator public schools as prison wards.  Militarize the heck out of them. 

And watch as the number of people who home school, church school, and private school goes from the sub-5% range to the 25% range.
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Bolonium238

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #196 on: December 17, 2012, 05:29:28 PM »
B238,

Here's what I found Re: his home life, mother and her guns.

http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-mother-kept-trials-home-life-hidden-010414000.html

Thanks very much for that, scout, although reading it has raised more questions for me.  It seems like, while he was withdrawn, socially awkward, etc., there's nothing in that piece that points to a dramatic or violent psychological or personality disorder.  I'm a layman when it comes to psychology, though, and while I know a couple of people with high-functioning autism and Asperger's, I'm not familiar enough with them to know if 1) they can progress along a spectrum to manifest as violent, or 2) if having autism/Asperger's makes it more difficult to diagnose and/or treat a violent mental problem.

Is there anyone with experience in the above who could enlighten me?

ArfinGreebly

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #197 on: December 17, 2012, 05:31:20 PM »
Steve,

I am a social worker - of the old-school Settlement House variety.  I have been doing "brief, solution-focused therapy" since I was about 4 years old. =D  I am now retired from gainful employment but still consider myself a social worker - it's a calling, not a job.

I have been "in therapy" a few times - because  I needed assistance in seeing the trees for the forest.  Some of that therapy was in offices with comfy chairs (nobody uses a couch any more) and some of it was across a bar, a kitchen table, or the front seat of a car.  The only things that tissue-doling, hand-holding, hug-giving "therapy" do are provide a long chain of medical insurance reimbursement and promote a sense of victimhood.  Victims are what the newspapers call those that did not make it - the ones that did are called survivors.  'That which does not kill me has failed in its mission.  It also needs to watch its back from now on.'

Stuff happens.  Most of the time stuff is not "good stuff".  Most of that is not "bad stuff" - merely neutral stuff.  When bad stuff happens you have two choices: get over it and get past it, or let it stop you in your tracks and control you for the rest of your days.  Getting "over" something like this school shooting is going to be difficult and will depend a lot on how you define "getting over."  Getting past it is easier, although not a walk in the sun.  (Folks like Collin Goddard and his father Andrew have not gotten over or gotten past the Va Tech shooting - it's all and everything in and about their lives now.  Gabreiel Giffords and her husband have certainly gotten past her shooting, and may even have gotten over it.)

stay safe.

I am neither a social worker nor a licensed therapist.  Moreover, I have no formal training in the psych fields.

I have, however, spent ten years in the field as a volunteer, working with rehab cases, educational cases (both advanced and remedial), and personal enhancement.  This does not include the additional five years working as an actual teacher.

Steve responded to one of my posts in another thread using the term "anti-psychiatry."

I will cop to that. 

I'll spare you the anecdotes, of which there are many, but I will assert that the "science" is fundamentally flawed.  They (the psych professions) have had five decades of unfettered access to the educational system, even unto state/federal funding for their initiatives.  The foundation philosophy behind the psych sciences is broken, using nothing more than their work product as a measuring stick.  I'm not talking anecdotal "hey, therapy helped me, my family, or my friend," I'm talking broadly, across the entire educational spectrum.  With the access they've had to the institution and to the curriculum, the US educational system ought to be their crown jewel.  If that's their best effort -- and it bloody well ought to be -- then I deem them a comprehensive failure.

I realize that this is essentially spitting into the wind.

They have a foothold, institutionalized state acceptance and funding, and have attained a position of unquestioned authority -- to the point where questioning their validity is grounds for being labeled crazy -- so to call them incompetent or to hint that they might, as a branch of medicine, be considered charlatans, is to court ridicule and shunning.

And yet, in spite of that, and in spite of the risk to what little credibility I might have, I assert that they are making it up as they go, have no provable universal methodology, and are still experimenting on humans.

Place your faith in them if you will; heck, you may even find one that's good at helping and has a grasp of how to improve a person's condition, but I can't look upon the cultural impact of the psych fields and bring myself to have any truck with them.

For some reason though, despite their repeated failures to predict, anticipate, or even interdict violence in their patients, the government and the public at large seem to have no problem with repeated catastrophic failures.  "Guns" are the problem.  "Culture" is the problem.  "Parents" are the problem.  "Home schooling" is the problem.  "Survivalist mentality" is the problem.  "Video games" are the problem.  However, the quality and nature of their "treatment" is never considered or contemplated as having any contributory influence.

I would submit that there's more than a correlation.

So, yes, you may consider me numbered among the "anti-psychiatry" camp.

Think what you will of me, I can't endorse, support, or recommend them.
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geronimotwo

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #198 on: December 17, 2012, 06:15:18 PM »
the following is purely speculation........what if the shooters mindset was such that he wanted to save his mother and the little children the pain and suffering of living through the 2012 apocolypse?  if his mother was a 2012 prepper, she may have indoctrinated him with irrational fears such that he may have had concerns for the well being of the ones he shot.  is that any crazier than saying he is just psychotic?

on another note, does CT already have a high cap ban like NY?  i haven't seen any difinititive write up about the size of the magazines he was using.  the only mention i have read was a reporter stating that his gun could have up to a 30 round mag.
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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #199 on: December 17, 2012, 08:07:11 PM »
No mag cap restrictions after the fed AWB expired. We do have a Baby AWB , no tech nines, no uzis etc
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