Author Topic: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd  (Read 8884 times)

Ben

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Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« on: March 17, 2011, 11:45:54 AM »
This may explain his recent interest in writing Op-Eds. We should probably wait to hear from more sources than the Huffington Post, but this does not bode well (or perhaps it does if he overplays his hand). It was interesting to note that the majority of "stakeholders" seemed to be anti-gun.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/15/obama-gun-laws-congress_n_836138.html
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2011, 12:01:33 PM »
That sound you heard was my hand breaking the sound barrier in its travel to my forehead. Shades of EO 9066 here. Any odds that by "agency action" they will be trying to revoke the FFL of any dealer or manufacturer that sells to civilians? I seem to recall a culling of FFL's during the 90's.

ETA: Adding a ban on private transfers with the onus of proving that you purchased it "pre-ban" seems like it would go hand-in-hand with pulling FFL's. Worst case scenario is obviously a total ban, but I'm trying to think of "most probable worst case."
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 12:09:41 PM by kgbsquirrel »

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2011, 12:05:59 PM »
This scares me. But, part of me wants to see the shitstorm* that Obama will open up if he pursues the Executive Order or other route.

* By shitstorm, I mean the backlash that will happen, the true colors of his Admin will be shown without any doubt. I DO NOT MEAN violence.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2011, 12:31:44 PM »
This is unpossible.  We were assured that Obama posed no threat to our gun rights, that the Dems learned their lesson back in '94, and that we had the most pro-gun government in the history of mankind.

HankB

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2011, 12:40:14 PM »
. . . ETA: Adding a ban on private transfers with the onus of proving that you purchased it "pre-ban" seems like it would go hand-in-hand with pulling FFL's.
Yes, he COULD do damage from a regulatory/FFL license standpoint - but Executive Orders are only binding on the executive branch; without enabling legislation, the executive orders that POTUS can impose on YOU, personally, are nil, unless you're in the import/export business or have some Federal license of your own. (Even FDR had to get enabling legislation from the Congress when he banned private ownership of gold by the general public in 1933.)

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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2011, 01:34:37 PM »
Yes, he COULD do damage from a regulatory/FFL license standpoint - but Executive Orders are only binding on the executive branch; without enabling legislation, the executive orders that POTUS can impose on YOU, personally, are nil, unless you're in the import/export business or have some Federal license of your own. (Even FDR had to get enabling legislation from the Congress when he banned private ownership of gold by the general public in 1933.)


FDR did not get permission from Congress before signing an executive order that allowed the imprisonment of 110,000 people without charge or trial, and in 1944 the SCOTUS upheld his executive order taking exception only to the racial bias. This ruling has not been overturned. Here is Executive Order 9066. Now replace the word  "persons" in the second paragraph with "weapons."





EDIT: Since the government archives website does not seem to have the rest of the order (just that first page) here's the whole of it pulled from another source...





« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 01:45:02 PM by kgbsquirrel »

PTK

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2011, 01:38:10 PM »
You took the example I was about to post. :)
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Ben

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2011, 01:45:05 PM »
I seem to recall a culling of FFL's during the 90's.

You recall correctly. I can't remember what the popular media phrase was at the time for small-time individual FFLs, but it was something analogous to "shadetree mechanic", only more derogatory.

I remember working with a guy who had an FFL just because he collected a lot of guns, and also sold a bit to people he knew. We all used to get some good deals from him. He got hit by the new regs in the 90's and it just became too expensive and bureaucratic for him to continue renewing the license.

I recall that many brick and mortar gun shops at the time were either for the regs or quiet about them. Brings to mind the phrase, "They came for the "    " but I did nothing...
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Tallpine

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2011, 01:55:24 PM »
The term was "kitchen table" dealer IIRC
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French G.

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2011, 04:53:40 PM »
Oh, 90% of the brick and mortar gunshops were jumping for joy when they regulated the kitchen table guys out. I think it is doable again now because of the internet, but if I ever do it will be brick and mortar even if I sell 90% of my guns through online advertising. Keeps what can be searched limited to not my house.
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HankB

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2011, 04:59:55 PM »

FDR did not get permission from Congress before signing an executive order that allowed the imprisonment of 110,000 people without charge or trial, and in 1944 the SCOTUS upheld his executive order taking exception only to the racial bias. This ruling has not been overturned. Here is Executive Order 9066. Now replace the word  "persons" in the second paragraph with "weapons." 
That was war and everyone was afraid of the Yellow Peril. And overturning a ruling becomes moot once the people are released. However, the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 granted restitution to surviving internees. Reagan signed the law which also apologized to internees.

I think this sort of thing would be more difficult to enact today, and still more difficult to enforce.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

MillCreek

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2011, 05:06:54 PM »
I was one of those kitchen table FFLs that got culled. 
_____________
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KD5NRH

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2011, 05:57:11 PM »
I remember working with a guy who had an FFL just because he collected a lot of guns, and also sold a bit to people he knew. We all used to get some good deals from him. He got hit by the new regs in the 90's and it just became too expensive and bureaucratic for him to continue renewing the license.

I'm concerned about how much hassle they'll be adding to my C&RFFL.

PTK

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2011, 06:00:33 PM »
No kidding... =|
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Ben

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2011, 06:15:58 PM »
I'm concerned about how much hassle they'll be adding to my C&RFFL.

Yeah, I'm wondering that too. I haven't found the killer deals on milsurps that I used to, and mostly just use it for discounts at Midway, etc. nowadays. If it becomes too great an expense or infringement on my privacy, I'll likely let it go.
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erictank

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2011, 07:50:55 PM »
You recall correctly. I can't remember what the popular media phrase was at the time for small-time individual FFLs, but it was something analogous to "shadetree mechanic", only more derogatory.

"Kitchen-table dealers", they were called.

KD5NRH

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2011, 11:10:40 PM »
Yeah, I'm wondering that too. I haven't found the killer deals on milsurps that I used to, and mostly just use it for discounts at Midway, etc. nowadays. If it becomes too great an expense or infringement on my privacy, I'll likely let it go.

Exactly; my bound book is still dead empty, but at $30/3years, it pays for itself in Midway/Brownells/Graf discounts within the first year each time.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2011, 07:07:34 AM »
That was war and everyone was afraid of the Yellow Peril.

War on Drugs, War on Terror, War in Iraq, War in Afghanistan, and drug war in Mexico edging across our southern border.  To top it all off, Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Latin/South American drug cartels (which American civi gunshops have wrongly been portrayed as supplying) have been well groomed by the media as the new "Yellow Peril."

Quote from: HankB
And overturning a ruling becomes moot once the people are released. However, the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 granted restitution to surviving internees. Reagan signed the law which also apologized to internees.

How does the release of the Japanese, monetary restitution and apology make moot the current existence of intact case law and precedent that says the President can imprison innocent U.S. citizens and foreign nationals?

Quote from: HankB
I think this sort of thing would be more difficult to enact today, and still more difficult to enforce.

All it takes is a sitting president being willing to only have one term (or is already in their second term) to sign such an Executive Order, and the approximately one quarter of the U.S. military (by sampling) willing to execute such an order. You may not have meant it in such a way, but your posting strikes me as sticking ones head in the sand saying "no, it's different now, they would never be able or want to do that." As it sits, there is no current legal obstacle to another 9066 being put into effect so long as it doesn't single out a Protected Class(c).

mtnbkr

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2011, 07:16:39 AM »
Yeah, I'm wondering that too. I haven't found the killer deals on milsurps that I used to, and mostly just use it for discounts at Midway, etc. nowadays. If it becomes too great an expense or infringement on my privacy, I'll likely let it go.

I mainly have mine for the discounts, but have used it to buy a couple older S&W revolvers.  There are lots of nice pre-WWII revolvers out there...

Remember, if it's more than 50yrs old, it counts as C&R.

Q: What is a firearm curio or relic?

    Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.  Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
2.  Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
3. Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Chris
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 07:27:27 AM by mtnbkr »

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2011, 09:21:20 AM »


All it takes is a sitting president being willing to only have one term (or is already in their second term) to sign such an Executive Order, and the approximately one quarter of the U.S. military (by sampling) willing to execute such an order. You may not have meant it in such a way, but your posting strikes me as sticking ones head in the sand saying "no, it's different now, they would never be able or want to do that." As it sits, there is no current legal obstacle to another 9066 being put into effect so long as it doesn't single out a Protected Class(c).

http://www.hulu.com/watch/123047/abc-nightline-one-term-president
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Ben

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2011, 10:27:01 AM »
I mainly have mine for the discounts, but have used it to buy a couple older S&W revolvers.  There are lots of nice pre-WWII revolvers out there...

Remember, if it's more than 50yrs old, it counts as C&R.

Chris

Yeah, but you're lucky and live in America. I live in CA. :P

The paperwork to get a C&R handgun into CA adds a good 30-50% to their cost. I think the cheapest way to do it is to by one out of state in person, then pay the DROS fees to register it in-state.

CMP lets you use them as one of your purchase requirements, so I did use it for my Garand a couple of years ago. I've seen some nice non-milsurp stuff out there like side by side shotguns, but most of what I see is pretty expensive.
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Levant

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2011, 04:28:06 PM »
This is not a problem at all.  If Obama bans guns and we protest in the streets, isn't he obligated to step down or face military attack by the rest of the world?
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RaspberrySurprise

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2011, 08:17:09 PM »
This is not a problem at all.  If Obama bans guns and we protest in the streets, isn't he obligated to step down or face military attack by the rest of the world?

Obama and Qadaffi are not even remotely comparable, thank you for playing though.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Obama Exploring Executive Orders to Bypass 2nd
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2011, 09:55:07 AM »
This is not a problem at all.  If Obama bans guns and we protest in the streets, isn't he obligated to step down or face military attack by the rest of the world?

The hell? Um, the rest of the world would be itching to offer their assistance to quell the protesters. Get this clue: most of the rest of the world (especially Europe) has been pushing the US to ban guns. Note the UN's desire to have it done. They absolutely hate us, don't expect any assistance from anyone else.

And if it gets to the point where he bans guns and we protest, well, I don't think he's going to have a problem with ordering us protestors to be gunned down in the streets.

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