Plastic gun ban bills about to move

[DustinD]

Several sources, examiner.com Is NRA throwing printed guns under the bus?, a National Shooting Sports Foundation email that I received*, and a few others have stated that the undetectable firearms act renewal bills will start moving again after Thanksgiving. The current law will sunset on Dec 9th.

A new bill, S1774 was introduced Nov 21st. Its text is not yet available, but it is likely a strait renewal with a one year sunset.

Gabrielle Giffords'/Mark Kelly's "American's for Responsible Solutions." reports that the NRA has agreed not to oppose the bill. They are not a trustworthy source, and it is not clear which bills they are referring to.

Everyone please contact your reps and the NRA, as well as every other gun organisation and forum to get the word out to oppose this renewal effort. This issue has been in the news heavily for the last two weeks. I was hoping it would expire quietly, but that clearly will not happen.

* Here is the reply I received from the NSSF:

Dustin,
Thanks for contacting us regarding the Undetectable Firearms Act. For the record, the National Shooting Sports Foundation supports a clean reauthorization of existing law specific to undetectable firearms. We strongly oppose The Undetectable Firearm Modernization Act, S. 1149 and H.R. 1474, which as you correctly note in your email would ban existing magazines and other accessories that do not meet the requirement of containing an arbitrary amount of stainless steel.

Neither the House nor the Senate has given either version of that bill much consideration, but we do anticipate some action on our preferred approach, which is to reauthorize existing law without making any other changes.

Patrick J. Rothwell
Director, Government Relations - Federal Affairs
National Shooting Sports Foundation, Inc.

Edit: defdist.tumblr.com/on-undetectable-firearms-act-renewal has a good post on this topic.

[geronimotwo]

if this is true, then it would seem the nra is more concerned about gun manufacturers rights than the individuals.

[DustinD]

Interestingly enough, many anti gun persons have commented on exactly that. www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/plastic-guns-will-reveal-real-nra for an example.

[Matthew Carberry]

The examiner folks have a habit of demonizing tne NRA at every opportunity and never printing retractions or apologies when their preemptive criticism turns out to be bullshit.

Their link to "evidence" of NRA "negotiating" cites only Rahm's folks, as this one cites only the Giffords.

They practically wrote the book on "I'm just asking questions" smear method.

Even when they are right on the issues, which they are frequently, they combine the worst overstated alarmism of the GOA morons with the most negative presentation possible. One guaranteed to turn off the non-ideological folks we need on our side.

They fail to see that being right is not enough, you also have to be non-threatening and non-strident.

[Balog]

For the record, the National Shooting Sports Foundation supports a clean reauthorization of existing law specific to undetectable firearms.

[Matthew Carberry]

I would bet their mindset is:

Option 1 - No renewal. Immediately followed by executive orders going further than existing restrictions, public probably buys it as "reasonable"

Option 2 - Clean renewal, current law doesn't really negatively impact current or foreseeable future licensed R&D of manufacturing and they are a manufacturer's trade group

Option 3 - One of the Dem bills passes somehow, they do actually contain restrictions beyond current law that -will- have negative repercussions

Based on that pragmatic outlook, it makes sense for a trade group to support the status quo given the current administration.  Saying "sure, clean renewal is okay" makes the -other- guy the extremist and unreasonable for pushing for more. Defensive holding the line until circumstances favor attack.

[DustinD]

The NSSF also supports requiring states to use NICS and submit crime information to the feds as part of their www.FixNICS.org campaign under penalty of withholding federal funds. They cite drunk driving standards and highway funds as an example and precedent. This is an attempt to stop universal registration.

I replied and asked:

Thank you for getting back to me. With a Kel-Tec P-32 weighing in at only 6.6 oz. total, 3.7 oz. of steel is rapidly becoming a design constraint. Is it possible to push for a lower metal requirement. Note that 18 U.S.C. § 922(p)(2)(C)(ii) says in part:

(ii) ...which contains 3.7 ounces of material type 17-4 PH stainless steel,
in a shape resembling a handgun, or such lesser amount as is detectable in view
of advances in state-of-the-art developments in weapons detection technology.

The Attorney General has never in the 25 year history of this law lowered the requirement.

and received:

I understand your concerns, but with this senate and this president, we are fortunate just to be in a position for a straight reauthorization.
If they had their way, they would be passing the version that bans magazines.

We'll continue to look for ways to address our members' concerns when it comes to R&D using new technology. That's why the manufacturer's exemption language was so important to us to retain.

Also note their dated and um "optimistic" view of 3D printing. www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/3D_Printing.pdf‎

[DustinD]

From TTAG (The Truth About Guns):House of Representatives Could Vote on “Undetectable Firearms Act” As Soon As This Afternoon
They clearly didn't today but it is likely to happen this week. Spread the word near and far. Contact your reps, the pro gun groups that haven't come out against this, and everyone else you know.

http://mashable.com/2013/12/02/3d-printed-guns-law-renew this is a pretty good article about the subject. They may vote on the issue tomorrow.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/02/house-votes-on-3d-plastic-gun-weapons-bill-monday also has a decent read. GOA president Larry Pratt should have used a better argument then "3D printers are not too common yet". That is almost throwing the debate, he could have raised a few good points about home manufacture, or the magazine expansion.

[Balog]

Any news on if this has been voted on today?

[TommyGunn]

Any news on if this has been voted on today?

I think it passed. 

[dogmush]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/12/03/as-plastic-firearm-ban-passes-house-3d-printed-guns-fair-game-for-now/

It passed the house, but just a straight extension.

As I read that article and specifically the quotes from Rep. Israel I was struck by a thought.  I am a [pretty much] law abiding guy.  I don't engage in long term criminal activity, and I have plenty of manufactured firearms so a plastic gun would be more of a "Can I do It?" exercise to me.  And from that viewpoint I was reading that article about banning 3D printed guns and thought to myself "Or what?".  If I make one I won't YouTube it.  If I need it for something nefarious the deed'll be done before anyone knows the scary plastic gun exists.  And I'm generally mainstream.

I wonder if our Reps realize how far off the reservation they are venturing, or will they be truly perplexed when the ground gives way beneath them?

[DustinD]

http://www.examiner.com/article/house-extends-undetectable-firearms-act-as-rep-massie-claims-sole-opposition

It seems like it was a strait renewal. Hopefully they won't try for an expansion of the law in the Senate. Edit: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c113:H.R.3626: The only change was the expiration date was moved back another ten years.

I am a bit disappointed in a few pro gun groups. They could have at least tried to make some public comment about the expansion bills being bad, and pointed out that the current law isn't helping to reduce crime or assassinations. The GOA president Larry Pratt made a silly comment about how we don't have to renew the law because not too many people have plastic printers yet, and the guns only fire one shot. That is not a convincing argument, or a solid reason.

Edit: From the NRA:

With the expiration of the so-called Undetectable Firearms Act (UFA) rapidly approaching on December 9th, misinformation over this issue and NRA’s position on it has unfortunately reached a heightened level.

We would like to make our position clear.  The NRA strongly opposes ANY expansion of the Undetectable Firearms Act, including applying the UFA to magazines, gun parts, or the development of new technologies.  The NRA has been working for months to thwart expansion of the UFA by Senator Chuck Schumer and others.  We will continue to aggressively fight any expansion of the UFA or any other proposal that would infringe on our Second Amendment rights.

Unlike the Schumer proposal, the vote today in the U.S. House of Representatives on H.R. 3626, sponsored by Rep. Howard Coble, is a simple 10-year reauthorization -- NOT an expansion -- of current law.  Other than extending the sunset date, H.R. 3626 makes no changes whatsoever to the underlying act.

Some groups have been circulating misinformation in order to create confusion over today’s House vote.  To be clear, Rep. Coble’s bill DOES NOT expand current law in any way, as Sen. Schumer’s proposal would do.

Again, the NRA strongly opposes any expansion of the Undetectable Firearms Act.  By simply reauthorizing current law, however, H.R. 3626 does not expand the UFA in any way.

Which is almost the best we could hope for. It would have been nice for them to say that publicly before the bill was voted on in the House. Someone should probably call foul on them publicly taking a position after the battle is over.

[Balog]

What the hell good are the Republicans if they hold the House and can't even stop this?

[dogmush]

What the hell good are the Republicans if they hold the House and can't even stop this?

I think you'd find that the vast majority of Republican voters don't have a problem with this law.  They remember Die Hard 2 and 3D printers are something the neighbor's creepy kid might have in the basement.

[Scout26]

And Schumer is promising to filibuster/hold this in the Senate.  So with luck, Schumer's "My Way or the Highway" may allow the law to expire. 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/3/house-dems-give-grudging-support-gun-ban-extension/

Sen. Charles E. Schumer, New York Democrat, vowed to force that fight next week when the Senate returns from a two-week Thanksgiving vacation, on the day the plastic gun ban expires. He has signaled that he is prepared to let the ban expire as he fights for tougher legislation.

“I’d rather have one day where you don’t have a law and then they pass the tougher law on Tuesday than just have a 10-year extension and nothing else,” Mr. Schumer said Tuesday. “The House passing this bill was a small first step, but it’s certainly not enough.

Fight Chuckie, Fight !!!!!   

[zxcvbob]

I read somewhere (TFL?) that it passed on a voice vote with only 10 reps present.  WTF ever happened to requiring a quorum?

[brimic]

What the hell good are the Republicans if they hold the House and can't even stop this?

Was that a rhetorical question?

[Scout26]

I read somewhere (TFL?) that it passed on a voice vote with only 10 reps present.  WTF ever happened to requiring a quorum?

It ain't Mr. Smith goes to Washington where they are sit in their chairs and listen to the debate.  They've already figured out how they are going to vote on each bill (aides read them and give them "Cheat sheets").  While one or two stand on the floor and make impassioned speeches for and against (to get their comments in the Federal Register and their smiling puss on C-SPAN) the rest are in their offices having their picture taken with Mrs. Guernsey Cow 2013 and Mr. Hometown Special Interest.  Then when it's time to vote the head over into the chamber and put in their electronic card to vote.  After that, they head back to a committee meeting or shake -n- grin session.  

And then sometimes, it just a voice vote, usually when everyone knows it's going to pass and they want to avoid the delays of voting to move onto other business.  Other times it used to "Deemed Passed" to ram through unpopular legislation.  

[Matthew Carberry]

There is zero constituency to repeal this. Why waste political capital and give the Dems a distraction going into 2014.

A straight extension is effectively harmless, now is not the time to commit suicide for no purpose whatsoever on a mere anthill.

[roo_ster]

Gop did not need to pass this in the house and NRA could have made it much harder to pass.  it is just this sort of easily rolled back issue that undermines confidence in both orgs to roll back other odious laws.  Both orgs deserve a good slapping.

[roo_ster]

Looking through the mail that we got while we were gone.  Included was my wife's renewal.  Instead of cash I sent them a note that we did not appreciate the knife in the back.

[JN01]

The bill doesn't go far enough.  It also needs to include invisible guns.  Currently, a terrorist could walk into any sensitive area with an invisible gun taped to his head (with invisible tape, of course) and no one would detect it.  Stop the madness before it is too late.

[AZRedhawk44]

I think you'd find that the vast majority of Republican voters don't have a problem with this law.  They remember Die Hard 2 and 3D printers are something the neighbor's creepy kid might have in the basement.

Glock 7's are ceramic.  Not ABS plastic.   

And Schumer is promising to filibuster/hold this in the Senate.  So with luck, Schumer's "My Way or the Highway" may allow the law to expire. 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/3/house-dems-give-grudging-support-gun-ban-extension/


Fight Chuckie, Fight !!!!!   

Oh, please!  Let there be a window of non-prohibition in there, and just watch what crawls out of the woodwork.

[Matthew Carberry]

Gop did not need to pass this in the house and NRA could have made it much harder to pass.  it is just this sort of easily rolled back issue that undermines confidence in both orgs to roll back other odious laws.  Both orgs deserve a good slapping.

Here's what is said if they refused to pass it.

Them - "Why, those eeeeeevil Republicans are refusing to even just extend a law that bans guns that can be snuck past metal detectors."

Us - "Well, we have an absolute right to guns, um, even ones that can go through metal detectors and that no one has any plans to legally make."

Ma and Pa Kettle, who don't -care- about gun rights per se but who we -must- have voting with us or at least not against us on gun rights - "Wait, what?  Why on earth do you need invisible guns?  Maybe you -are- the loonies."

Them - "(snort) Those idiots had us on the run but they chose to hand us the rope to hang them in the media -and- kicked themselves in the nuts over what is objectively an absolute non-issue in the big picture, given current politics."

There is zero upside to fighting a clean extension this go-round. By passing it, the Dems will look like the extremists for asking for idiotic expansions, which will put their vulnerable on gun members in danger for supporting them, and look like the unreasonable ones for not "compromising" by accepting an extension.

It's possible to win -and- be right, there's no point doing things the stupid way for no possible actual gain.

[DustinD]

This issue is focused on home manufacture, all of the expansions of the law are addressing that. Many politicians even forget to mention the undetectable part.

The 3.7 oz. of 17-4 steel lower limit is becoming a design constraint. The Kel-Tec P-32 weighs only 6.6 oz. total. There are newer plastics that could replace much of its metal if it was legal.

Matthew: I agree that this issue isn't the most important, but you are basically admitting that the Republicans can't get their message out, which is certainly true.