Author Topic: Socialist ends by capitalist means  (Read 8912 times)

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,428
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2016, 07:04:49 PM »
  How does government regulation of health force them to increase prices?


 :rofl:
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,625
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2016, 09:16:04 PM »
How does government regulation of health force them to increase prices?

Seriously, you even have to ask this question?
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2016, 10:52:57 PM »
Seriously, you even have to ask this question?

Yes.  It's reasonable to ask when literally no government healthcare system in the world is more expensive than the US system.  If regulations increase price how come more regulated versions aren't more expensive?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,772
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2016, 11:07:29 PM »
Yes.  It's reasonable to ask when literally no government healthcare system in the world is more expensive than the US system.  If regulations increase price how come more regulated versions aren't more expensive?
Do you have any data to back that up which is normalized for level of care and speed of care provided?   You keep saying all this stuff and asking others to back up their assertions.  Back at ya.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2016, 11:12:01 PM »
Do you have any data to back that up which is normalized for level of care and speed of care provided?   You keep saying all this stuff and asking others to back up their assertions.  Back at ya.

Yes, that's exactly what I posted. There's an extensive set of comparisons.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,772
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2016, 11:22:47 PM »
This discussions sounds like a lot of the past discussions.  Too many people just love more govt. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,625
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2016, 12:25:25 AM »
Yes.  It's reasonable to ask when literally no government healthcare system in the world is more expensive than the US system.  If regulations increase price how come more regulated versions aren't more expensive?

You come across as one who takes pride in ignorance.  Or you're just trolling.  It's hard to tell.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2016, 06:30:39 AM »
You come across as one who takes pride in ignorance.  Or you're just trolling.  It's hard to tell.

And yet no data or facts get supplied to make out the "it's the government!!!! Rahhhhhh!!!" Hysteria.

I posted sources for what I said.  I haven't seen any data that even purport to refute it, and yet I'm trolling?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2016, 07:24:53 AM »
Maybe the answer then is to study how other governments pulled it off and try to do the same.  That seems a reasonable way to approach it.
Which model would you emulate

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,772
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2016, 11:09:43 AM »
And yet no data or facts get supplied to make out the "it's the government!!!! Rahhhhhh!!!" Hysteria.

I posted sources for what I said.  I haven't seen any data that even purport to refute it, and yet I'm trolling?
Link battles are not discussion and you aren't communicating your side very well IMO. 

Honestly, I don't care to waste my time on it.  This subject just doesn't interest me enough to go chasing your links.  I have done so before and never found them to be all that great.  As I said above, this health care discussion is heading the same direction as they have before. 

I want to go shoot a White Oak Armory upper and a 10/22 with a new KIDD barrel on it today.  You have fun.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,772
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2016, 08:03:32 PM »
It is nice to put rounds down range on Independence Day!

Thinking of this topic some more, I think I agree with what bluestarlizard said earlier.  A Govt run system just isn't going to work in the US.  There are too many politicians, bureaucrats, and freeloaders who will screw it up on purpose or with idiotic good intentions.  I am sure the lawyers will make sure the liability issues are not resolved also.  Even if the law creating the system was set up very well, it would still end up a flawed system.  IMO, the high cost De Selby mentioned are largely caused by govt trying to make part of it public and some private.  IMO, the only way we would have an efficient system in this country is to take the government out of it and make sure the consumer is getting the bill. 

There are some other issues that need to be dealt with such as requiring hospitals/emergency room to give free care and the ever present liability issues.  I think they can be dealt with in one way or another, but I bet many would not like the solution.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2016, 12:19:52 AM »
Which model would you emulate

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

France.  They seem to have the best combination of efficient funding and private choice.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,428
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2016, 11:37:09 AM »
Yes.  It's reasonable to ask when literally no government healthcare system in the world is more expensive than the US system.  If regulations increase price how come more regulated versions aren't more expensive?

Which nations have more highly-regulated healthcare systems than ours, and what are their costs like?

According to the Atlantic, "it has often been said that the United States has the most heavily regulated health care system in the world." They don't give their source, and so far I've not seen anyone else saying that. There are a lot of sources calling healthcare the most regulated industry in the United States, for what that's worth.


For those interested, here's a write-up on the French system.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1504547#t=article


edited for clarity
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 06:49:03 PM by fistful »
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #63 on: July 05, 2016, 12:28:48 PM »
FYI, wife has worked the trauma floor (and some other floors, too) of the metro county Level 1 trauma hospital as well as pool/temp/agency/whatever nurse for several of the hospital systems in the metro area.  She has made a few observations and come to a couple of conclusions.

1. County hospital, where most of the funding comes from county sales tax, has been the most cost-conscious and focused on getting the patient out of bed, well, and out the door so they can get on with their life.  Private hospitals, not so much.

2. Quality of care was highest at the county hospital and she would rather be treated there for just about anything (save pregnancy).  Despite the much less pretty and less comfy physical plant.

3. Patient-contact personnel (nurses, docs, techs) were of higher quality at the county hospital, despite lower pay relative to private hospitals. Admin were worse, however, as they were political graft jobs for the local dominant NAM.

============================

We discussed this a bit. 

A. In the case of trauma, it is no great mystery.  Most traumas are NAMs doing stupid NAM tricks: GSW, knifings, beatings, driving while drunk/high/stupid and similar dumbassery.  Many of these are rather catastrophic and Medicaid will cover only a fraction of what it truly costs to get Ghetto Joe out the door on crutches with a colostomy bag after a rival crack dealer gut shoots him...after 6-12mo of intense and costly treatment.  Private hospitals want no part of these.

B. In many of the other cases we speculate it is a function of who pays the bills.  For the county hospital, local folks who live and buy in the county pay a large proportion and put pressure on the hospital to be efficient.  Medicaid and insurance companies are smaller players.

C. CMS is of the Devil.  The private hospitals worship CMS and the patient satisfaction surveys.  Those surveys have an impact on Medicaid reimbursement.  A drug-seeking patient at the county hospital is dealing with nurses and docs who know the score and will keep him out of pain, but will not get him high out of his mind.  Nurses and docs will also risk patient ire in order to get them out of bed and moving, so they recover faster.  The same patient at the private hospital will be catered to and kept in a state of drooling bliss for fear of negative CMS survey results.  These patients are generally not particularly severe and taxing, med problem-wise.  They can be costly PITA to the personnel but cost the hospital less than the severe trauma cases.  Risk patient ire by calling them on their drug-seeking and insisting they get out of bed to walk?  Heh.

D. Private hospitals cut costs on quality of personnel.  LOTS of foreign-born and taught docs.  The typical case is the Indian woman who could not give a damn about her patients and pretty much hates doctoring altogether.  But family back in BFI and the ticket to America required a MD and a job as a doc.  Then there is the female doc from the USA who realizes she would rather be doing almost anything else...but has student loans to pay, pay, pay.  My wife is of the mind that she wants no female, foreign, or NAM doctor treating her or those she loves.  [Nursing & techs are another matter.]

E. County hospital can have a sense of mission the private hospitals lack.  The former top dog of the county hospital was a big name in the oldest S Baptist church around town.  He liked getting paid, but he burned with a sense of mission that pay can not provide.  That permeated management through to the docs & nurses.  [After he retired and was replaced with a typical health care mgt professional from back east, that sense of mission has suffered.  Especially as racial cliques were allowed to develop for fear of race-grievance allegations.  The old guy would have none of that crap and had a ZFG attitude WRT race-hustling in the patient-contact personnel.]

F. American-born docs and doc students working in a team.  Greater proportion of docs were American-born and the local med schools had them train at the county hospital.  Each patient had several docs, ranging from baby-docs to ancient docs who had to ride scooters to/from surgery to patient bed.  When patients had difficulties, there were several docs who knew the score, not just one foreign-born doc who went to med school in Lower FGM-istan who doesn't really like doctoring or patients.

============================

I think cost-pressure is at the heart of the issue when it comes to health care spending.  The county hospital has pressure imposed on it from local folks, whereas the private hospitals have pressure imposed only from insurance companies and more distant gov't entities.  Neither has pressure from patients, as the better-off have insurance and the indigent live their lives subsidized from cradle to grave by fed.gov and its more diffuse taxpayers.  Even disregarding the massive web of regulations, there is now no real market pressure to bear from the end-user of health care to keep costs down.

============================

And as far as cost & outcomes vs other first-world countries, get back to me when Australia has 30%+ NAM patient population with the attendant violence and poor lifestyle habits. 




Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2016, 06:14:18 PM »
You should tell me how you derive "MURICA!" from me stating that different countries gather & correlate statistics differently.
Your arguments would be better.   ;)

Your argument: "All the available data says X. But I don't trust that data, and believe we don't have any reliable data on X vs Y. Therefore, Y is true."

Tell me if you see the logical flaw here.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2016, 06:15:09 PM »
If you cherry pick the right stats, you can look good no matter what reality is.  It is pretty silly to discount one version of cherry picking with more cherry picking.  This entire thread as full of it.  IMO, especially from those who seem to hate any free market solution no matter what topic.

I love the free market. But I don't pretend it's a magical fairy wand that you can wave at any problem and it will instantly make everything better.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2016, 06:39:17 PM »
Your argument: "All the available data says X. But I don't trust that data, and believe we don't have any reliable data on X vs Y. Therefore, Y is true."

Tell me if you see the logical flaw here.

The flaw is your statement does not reflect what I said.
I said that different countries compile statistics differently, thus making comparisons either very difficult or even impossible.

I don't understand why it should be so hard to understand......did my autocorrect change it into Yiddish?
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2016, 07:17:45 PM »
The flaw is your statement does not reflect what I said.
I said that different countries compile statistics differently, thus making comparisons either very difficult or even impossible.

I don't understand why it should be so hard to understand......did my autocorrect change it into Yiddish?

The paper covers how statistics are gathered.  Worth reading.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #68 on: July 05, 2016, 10:45:59 PM »
The flaw is your statement does not reflect what I said.
I said that different countries compile statistics differently, thus making comparisons either very difficult or even impossible.

I don't understand why it should be so hard to understand......did my autocorrect change it into Yiddish?

So, in the absence of reliable data, you base your conclusion that "We're #1!" on what again?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #69 on: July 05, 2016, 10:48:55 PM »
And, again, if you want to argue that the free market leads to better results America is not a real great case study since our medical system is not free market. The only place private free markets come in is when the fed.gov cheese gets spread around. Privatize the profit, socialize the loss. It's the American way!
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #70 on: July 05, 2016, 11:17:14 PM »
So, in the absence of reliable data, you base your conclusion that "We're #1!" on what again?

If all you are going to do is lead this increasingly puerile argument around in circles, I won't even bother responding.
You damned well KNOW what I said.  You don't have to believe it if you choose, that's on you.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2016, 12:32:33 AM »
If all you are going to do is lead this increasingly puerile argument around in circles, I won't even bother responding.
You damned well KNOW what I said.  You don't have to believe it if you choose, that's on you.

I know exactly what you said. "I don't trust the data, here is an anecdote that charicitures one specific country's medical system, therefore Murica is the best!"
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2016, 12:01:11 PM »
 :facepalm:
Good grief.   DO YOU REALLY THINK OTHER COUNTRIES COLLECT AND ANALYZE STATISTICS THE WAY WE DO IN AMERICA?
The fact that you seem to think that means our stats are any better is an idea that solely exists inside your skull, bouncing from one of the two working brain cells to another in a feeble attempt to achieve intelligent thought. Many organizations within America compile stats, and some of those are suspect, some are pretty good.  Many don't even speak for what the Murica(!)  :-* government's policy is.  Other countries gather statistics on crime differently than we do, and their methods may or may not be better than ours.  The simple fact they are DIFFERENT means it is hard to glean meaningful information from them in comparison to ours.


 :mad:
Ok, clearly you don't comprehend the English language.
If you don't like what I say, PLEASE ignore me.  
Now, either understand what I've said or bug off.  :-*
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,428
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2016, 01:11:26 PM »
And, again, if you want to argue that the free market leads to better results America is not a real great case study since our medical system is not free market.


This is why I asked DeSelby which countries he's thinking of that have more regulation on health care than we have in the states.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2016, 04:16:43 PM »
:facepalm:
Good grief.   DO YOU REALLY THINK OTHER COUNTRIES COLLECT AND ANALYZE STATISTICS THE WAY WE DO IN AMERICA?
The fact that you seem to think that means our stats are any better is an idea that solely exists inside your skull, bouncing from one of the two working brain cells to another in a feeble attempt to achieve intelligent thought. Many organizations within America compile stats, and some of those are suspect, some are pretty good.  Many don't even speak for what the Murica(!)  :-* government's policy is.  Other countries gather statistics on crime differently than we do, and their methods may or may not be better than ours.  The simple fact they are DIFFERENT means it is hard to glean meaningful information from them in comparison to ours.


 :mad:
Ok, clearly you don't comprehend the English language.
If you don't like what I say, PLEASE ignore me.  
Now, either understand what I've said or bug off.  :-*

Wow, you really don't see the logical contradiction in your own argument do you?

I'm not saying the data is or is not reliable. I am granting (for the sake of argument) that your point is correct and that the comparative data is not reliable, and then questioning how (in the absence of reliable data) you are arriving at your conclusion that care in America is superior. Feel free to keep dancing around that. I'm sure if you make your font larger that'll prove your point.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.