Author Topic: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?  (Read 12504 times)

K Frame

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2008, 04:19:28 PM »
"True, but one would have to drill very, very deeply in Wisconsin to get enough heat to power a steam turbine."

THAT was my ENTIRE point!  rolleyes

Drilling deeply enough to heat water to where it creates steam capable of doing work simply is not economically feasible in most of the world.

"We called 'em heat pump systems in Florida, I suspect it's the same concept that will be heating/cooling the new high school."

Yeah, they're called heat pumps just about everywhere.

There are two common kinds -- air source, and ground source, aka geothermal.

And yes, there is absolutely NO doubt that the school is using ground source heat pump technology. There are three ways of installing such a system...

1. Water body exchange. You use a large lake and run tubes through it.

2. Ground loop. You dig trenches and lay the exchange piping in the trench, and then cover it up.

3. Water well. A lot like water body, only done vertically.

No matter how you cut it, a geothermal exchange system is two things (if properly designed and installed): 1: extremely efficient, providing lots of heating and cooling capacity for extremely reasonable energy consumption, and 2: expensive as all hell to install compared to other heating/cooling systems.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2008, 05:26:23 PM »
Ok, Mike.

Geeze, sorry. 

I'll delete my posting.  undecided
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K Frame

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2008, 07:07:16 PM »
Hey Manedwolf,

When you say "pellet coal," do you mean rice coal grind, or are there stoves that use ground coal held together with a binder to form pellets?

I'm trying to talk my mother into a stove that will burn rice coal, but she wants no part of it.
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Tallpine

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2008, 06:27:13 AM »
I'm just saying that geothermal power generation sounds more do-able than theoretical technologies like cold fusion.  I imagine that there's millions of years worth of heat inside the earth.

Suppose they built a geothermal plant in someplace like Livingston MT, near the Yellowstone Caldera - not that far down to very hot rock, and/or they could drill at an angle to get under the park itself.



BTW, I heard on the radio this morning that there is an effort to convert Israel to all electric vehicles.  They say they have a car with quick-change batteries and a range of 124 miles.  If the Israelis can build an electric car that can go clear across the country on one charge, why can't we?  grin
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Manedwolf

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2008, 06:37:30 AM »
Hey Manedwolf,

When you say "pellet coal," do you mean rice coal grind, or are there stoves that use ground coal held together with a binder to form pellets?

I'm trying to talk my mother into a stove that will burn rice coal, but she wants no part of it.

It looked like actual pellets, but I'm not sure. All I know is that it comes in a plastic sack like woodstove pellets, and the coal is dampened so it doesn't make a mess when you dump the bag. A local shop has a coal stove that looks like the currently popular woodpellet stoves, forced air, automatic auger and all, only it's burning coal pellets, not wood pellets. (actually, looking at a local vendor, it is indeed called "anthracite rice".)

Here's a local vendor's page about their freestanding coal stoves and basement furnaces:
http://www.completeheatnh.com/Alternative_Heating_Systems.html

Here's the local article about some:

Quote
Article published Dec 5, 2007
More warming to other heat sources
By ASHLEY SMITH, Telegraph Staff
asmith@nashuatelegraph.com

Every third day or so, Mike Henning, a professional chimney sweep, treks down the L-shaped stairway to the basement of his 3,000-square-foot Nashua home, where an eight-ton stack of coal nearly touches the ceiling.

He grabs a 40-pound bag from the pile  which is about 10 feet by 6 feet wide and 6 feet high  and snips off the top with a pair of scissors. He dumps the sack of tiny black coal pellets into the auger of a stove.

"That's one," he said during Wednesday's fill.

He repeats the process with a second bag, a third and then a fourth. He grabs a bag, snips off the top and adds fuel to the fire. He closes the lid and empties the ash pan.

"And I'll be back on Saturday," Henning said.The process takes just a few minutes, but it's more effort than would have been necessary two years ago, when heating Henning's home was as simple as pressing a button on the thermostat. But Henning said he's willing to work the extra 15 hours a year or so to save a bundle of cash.

Fed up with the increasing cost of propane, Henning converted his entire home to a heating system powered by coal  a form of energy rarely used these days but cheaper than more popular sources like oil, natural gas or electricity.

Henning is a rarity in this state.

Only two out of 1,000 households in the state use coal as a primary heating source, according to 2004 data from the U.S. Census Bureau.

That works out to fewer than 2,000 households in the entire state.Coal is not considered an environmentally friendly heating option, although Henning uses a type of hard coal called anthracite, which burns cleaner than soft coal common to New England.

But coal is cheap. The federal Energy Information Administration estimates that a set amount of heating  one million BTUs  could be generated by coal for a cost of $5.35, whereas it would cost $14.39 with wood, at least $27.65 with propane and $30.86 with electricity, unless a "geothermal" heat pump is used.

Henning said his yearly cost for coal  around $1,500  is equivalent to what he was spending per month on propane during the coldest months of the year. And in two years, he's already recouped the $5,000 spent on the stove and ductwork, he said.

It's tough to say if other Granite Staters have been making the same switch in the past few years during a period when the price of oil has skyrocketed. Joseph Broyles of the energy and planning office said his department has no way to keep track of that.

But switching to coal isn't the only way to save a few bucks on home heating.

Nancy Milliard, 58, of Merrimack, found similar savings 16 years ago when she switched from electric heat to a wood stove. Wood is a far more popular heat source in New Hampshire than coal.

Shortly after moving into her townhouse in 1990, Milliard got a $2,000 electric bill, she said. A call to the electric company revealed the home used an electric heat pump  a device made popular in the '80s that has not proven efficient or cost effective in cold winter climates.

Milliard said a neighbor introduced her to the idea of using a wood stove for heat after finding her sitting on the steps crying over the bill. Milliard said several people in the neighborhood have switched to using wood pellets as a fuel source to save money.Millard soon began making payments on her first wood stove and has since purchased two smaller units to supplement the heat, she said.

"The cost of the pellets is a lot, lot less," Milliard said. "It's a lot less costly than the electric."

About 10 percent of New Hampshire households rely on wood heat, making it the third most common source behind oil and natural gas, according to the latest data available from the New Hampshire Office of Energy and Planning, which are survey results from 1999.

More than half the households in New Hampshire heat their homes with oil and around 14 percent use natural gas. Coal is by far the least common fuel  trailing electricity by more than more than 4 percent.

Henning, who was introduced to the possibility of coal heat by a customer whose chimney he swept, is so pleased with his decision, he considers himself the coal distributor's best form of advertising.

His propane company was not quite as thrilled. Henning's only use for propane these days is cooking. He got a call from the company after his January bill was $6.72.

After realizing Henning was not going to meet his contractual consumption minimum, the company began charging him a $180 per year rental fee for his propane tank.HEATING FUEL COMPARISON This chart shows how much the federal government estimates it would cost to generate a specific amount of heat using different fuel types and types of heaters.
Fuel Type    
Heating Appliance Type
   
Fuel Cost Per Million Btus
          
Fuel Oil (#2)    
Furnace or Boiler
   
$22.83
Electricity    
Furnace or Boiler
   
$32.49
     
Geothermal Heat Pump
   
$9.35
     
Baseboard/Room Heater
   
$30.86
Natural Gas 1    
Furnace or Boiler
   
$17.82
     
Room Heater (Vented)
   
$21.38
     
Room Heater (Unvented)
   
$13.90
Propane    
Furnace or Boiler
   
$27.65
     
Room Heater (Vented)
   
$1.83
Wood 3    
Room Heater (Vented)
   
$14.39
Pellets    
Room Heater (Vented)
   
$14.39
Corn (kernels)    
Room Heater (Vented)
   
$14.39
Kerosene    
Room Heater (Vented)
   
$27.50
Coal    
Furnace/Boiler/Stove
   
$5.35


Tallpine

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2008, 06:43:01 AM »
We heat our house entirely with wood.  So the cost is some gas, mixing and bar oil, plus a little gas for the pickup.  I'm still using off a 100' loop of chain that I bought 10 years ago. 

We've pretty well cleaned up the dead wood on our place in the last 5 years, so we'll have to start hauling it from neighbors' land.  There is a big ranch 1/4 mile south of us that we can cut wood off of.
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K Frame

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2008, 07:14:01 AM »
You know, one of those would be perfect for my Mom's house. If I ever move into that house I may very well retrofit the place with one of the dual fuel oil/coal boilers. I talked to Mom about possibly retrofitting, but she wants no part of it. She grew up in a house heated with coal and remembers all of the hassle that that entailed. The new stoker systems are quite a bit different, though.

If I had a chimney at my house I'd be seriously considering a hot air coal stoker.

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Gewehr98

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2008, 07:25:35 AM »
No clinkers with coal pellets?
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Firethorn

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2008, 07:52:39 AM »
No clinkers with coal pellets?

I think that it'd depend upon the furnace.  I've seen some designs that used a fancy forced air circulation path to really up the temperature to burn out even the stuff that causes clinkers/cresote/etc...

My question would be, can't they build a bigger hopper?  That or a long feed shoot or even a conveyor system that activates whenever the hopper gets too low.

Same deal with the ash.  Then do a big reloading from the surface when summertime rolls around.

K Frame

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2008, 08:08:46 AM »
Creosote isn't a problem with coal, at least not with anthricite. It may be a problem with lignite.

Clinkers are generally less of a problem with power stoker stoves than with the old style open bed burn systems.

You still have the raw material of clinkers, but it never gets the chance to aggregate.
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K Frame

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Re: Is this electric car still environmentally friendly?
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2008, 03:46:19 AM »
"burn out even the stuff that causes clinkers/cresote/etc..."

I just saw this...

You can't burn out clinkers. Clinkers are substrate rock (I think that's the right term) that's mixed in with the coal and which is soften or melted by the heat of the coal fire. While it's soft if you can break it up into smaller pieces and get it through the grates, you won't have clinkers. That's one of the reasons why continuous stokers burning small grind coal do a pretty good job at keeping clinkers clear. The burn through on the coal is a matter of minutes instead of a 8 to 12 hours for stove or egg coal. The clinkers just don't have time to accumulate.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.