Microsoft demos windows 7. Critics underwhelmed.

[Regolith]

I use Mac at work, XP at home.  I prefer XP, but Mac isn't too bad.  Mac's biggest problem is that their hardware is overly expensive, particularly for their top-end stuff (I can usually set up a similary-spec'd custom-build PC for 3/4 the price) and there are too few programs for them.  Also, most of the high-end Apple software (Final Cut Pro is particularly egregious) is overly expensive, difficult to use and underpowered compared to their lower-priced PC counterparts.

However, I was not at all impressed by Vista, and it will not reside on my hard drive.  Hopefully, Windows 7 won't be a similar flop.

[mtnbkr]

I've used just about every desktop appropriate OS and a few that aren't appropriate for the desktop.  Except for Mac, my recent Cube purchase will be my first significant foray into that world.  In the end, all OSes have their positive and negative attributes and only you can decide which ones are important.

While I'm capable of using whatever system I want, I'll probably stick with Windows simply because it works on vanilla hardware I can buy anywhere, my wife is familiar with it, and if we stumble across some bit of edutainment software for our daughter, chances are it runs on Windows. 

As for Windows coming from the factory with the widgets and animations turned off for better performance, that's not what Joe Sixpack wants.  They want all that stuff turned on because that's what makes each new version "special".  They don't know and probably don't care about the extra performance under the hood, just like most auto owners don't know/care that they can get more performance from their car with just a few tweaks and maybe a chip reprogram. 

Frankly, I'd rather see "everyday" PCs as sealed boxes with embedded OSes and a flashdrive for user created files and applications.  Few people need the flexibility of current desktops and would benefit from an "appliance". I'd have one in a heartbeat myself...

Chris

[Manedwolf]

Frankly, I'd rather see "everyday" PCs as sealed boxes with embedded OSes and a flashdrive for user created files and applications.  Few people need the flexibility of current desktops and would benefit from an "appliance". I'd have one in a heartbeat myself...

Chris

Google Audrey, NetPliance, etc.

Yes, they were underpowered, but people still weren't interested.

[mtnbkr]

I know what they are.  I was working in IT when the idea of a network appliance was making the rounds.

Know what?  I thought then they'd be a good idea for most users.  We were using a Citrix Winframe cluster and Unix "dumb terminals" (proper name escapes me right now) right along with our normal NT4 workstations.  The Winframe cluster served up network hogging Windows apps (Oracle Developer for example) to remote/tele workers.  The biggest problem at the time was the network.  Most corporate LANs maxed out at 100mb, with 10 being pretty damn common.  As a user and as a person who as supported users in a corporate environment, I don't believe most (not all) users benefit from the complexity and flexibility of a normal PC.  Some will need it and those users would have the standard desktop, but there are a lot that don't. 

Chris

[Manedwolf]

This is true. Networked "dumb" appliances are also a lot less likely to get spyware and other junk, or have user-installed fun programs brought from home. "It said it was just wallpaper!"

I think the issue was, as you said, the network speed, (I love me my gigabit) , and the fact that the companies went and marketed those to consumers, mostly. People saw them as a crippled mini PC that couldn't do much, but cost almost as much as a real PC in the Audrey's case, and required subscription to a closed service in the case of the NetPliance, which was sold as a loss leader.

Of course, the fact that people took the $99/sell $400/production cost iOpener and hacked it into a Windows machine pretty much destroyed NetPliance. I'm quite familiar with their story, it made Business 2.0's issue with the dunce caps.

[Firethorn]

Google Audrey, NetPliance, etc.

Yes, they were underpowered, but people still weren't interested.

XBox 360, Playstation 3.  I'm surprised I haven't seen an office package released for them.  USB/wireless keyboard and pointing device.

Especially for the XBox, I mean, it shouldn't cost Microsoft more than 50 cents a machine to make it capable of the stuff, plus selling 'office for Xbox'.  Today's HD televisions are more than capable of displaying the screens.

[MechAg94]

I guess I am not as versed in OS systems as most here, but the thing I experience is the newer Office versions which don't seem to add functionality too much, but are extremely graphics intensive and take more drive space and memory for what seems like the same program.

[Manedwolf]

I guess I am not as versed in OS systems as most here, but the thing I experience is the newer Office versions which don't seem to add functionality too much, but are extremely graphics intensive and take more drive space and memory for what seems like the same program.

The fact that there's a best-selling third-party plugin that changes the new Office Ribbon back to the old toolbar should tell you something.

[Firethorn]

I'm running a Vista laptop right now, and it works marvelously.

I'm running a Vista laptop right now, and it runs like a dog.  A $1.5k laptop shouldn't take half an hour to log in a new user.
Of course, the intelligence of the system builders at installing Vista32 on a machine with 4GB of ram and a 1GB video card isn't great either.

When I get some time it's going to be XP64, but I figured I'd take a look at the 'new' vista features.

Result:  Interface is slow as heck.  Whenever I want to do something it asks me between 1 and three times 'if I'm sure'.  It's got a few new games, including a kiddy one, but no longer has pinball.  .  I can get free versions of the rest easily enough.  Besides, if you think I spent that much on a laptop intending to play solitare on it, you're crazy.

[41magsnub]

A small school district near us has an alumni who is one of the higher ups at Microsoft.  VP of something or other and he arranged for a bunch of free licenses for them.  Next month one of my engineers will be going out there to upgrade 70 some odd PCs from XP pro to Vista via ghost imaging.  We tried to talk them out of it, but no..  they do not want to offend this guy.  We upgraded video cards and RAM on the PCs as best we could, but I do not predict good things will come out of this.  We are happy to take their money, but in my mind it will be a downgrade.

[K Frame]

The more I work with it, the more I'm liking the ribbon concept.

[41magsnub]

The more I work with it, the more I'm liking the ribbon concept.

Yep, I'm kind of liking office 2007 as well.  It took me a solid day to figure out how to do the things I was used to but now it is fine.  No speed issues related to this program.

[mtnbkr]

I'm running a Vista laptop right now, and it runs like a dog.  A $1.5k laptop shouldn't take half an hour to log in a new user.
Of course, the intelligence of the system builders at installing Vista32 on a machine with 4GB of ram and a 1GB video card isn't great either.

When I get some time it's going to be XP64, but I figured I'd take a look at the 'new' vista features.

Result:  Interface is slow as heck.  Whenever I want to do something it asks me between 1 and three times 'if I'm sure'.  It's got a few new games, including a kiddy one, but no longer has pinball.  .  I can get free versions of the rest easily enough.  Besides, if you think I spent that much on a laptop intending to play solitare on it, you're crazy.

Something's not right.  My FIL's laptop is nowwhere near the spec you described for your machine and it is perfectly useable.  Is it as fast as the same machine running XP?  No, but it doesn't take half an hour to log in (or even 30 seconds).  You can speed up the interface by turning off the Vista specific crap.  FIL's laptop looks like XP/2k for the most part.  He's happy, he only wants it for web, email, and office apps.  Size and price were more important than raw performance.  We bought it at Best Buy for less than $400 8 months ago.

I think the issue was, as you said, the network speed, (I love me my gigabit) , and the fact that the companies went and marketed those to consumers, mostly. People saw them as a crippled mini PC that couldn't do much, but cost almost as much as a real PC in the Audrey's case, and required subscription to a closed service in the case of the NetPliance, which was sold as a loss leader.

The price was the biggest problem.  They should've been less than $500 and not required a network for basic tasks (productivity, offline email, etc).

Chris

[K Frame]

I bet you someone doesn't have enough sheeps in their computer and that's why it's running slowly.

[charby]

The more I work with it, the more I'm liking the ribbon concept.

Me also, once I figured it out I can access tools a lot easier.

[roo_ster]

I'm running swappable hard drives in my main IBM quad-Xeon worstation.  One hard drive is Suse 10.3, the other WinXP Pro.

I absolutely love the Suse Linux, but it by no means an easy system to install and set up for hardware.  As much as folks love to bash Windows, it still is truly an Everyman's OS. Linux has a long ways to go before it exits the domain of the computer geek.

The reason Mac users have it easy is because they're basically a sole-source system, drivers and apps don't have to be written to support a myriad of vendors and configurations.  Windows could be a lot more streamlined if they didn't have to support all those parts and pieces. 

It's already been streamlined in some circles. I've played with XP Lite and Tiny XP - they're great when you want optimal performance sans all the bells and whistles.  You also have to know what you're doing to build a Tiny XP install. Unfortunately, as an Everyman's OS, Windows XP and Vista are still trying to be everything to everybody.  They have to, including Ma and Pa Kettle, who just want something they can plug in and turn on, without having to upgrade, install, or tweak anything.  Short of going for the aforementioned sole-source Mac, they're going to either buy XP or Vista, because that's what they're going to find at WallyWorld, along with the software titles.  Unless they have a geek in the family or know one, they'll go no further. 

Getting linux to run on some of IBM's heavy iron is challenging, relative to some other manufacturers.  BTDT, got the triumphs and defeats.

IBM & HP deliver some of their wares with linux installed, but just can't leave well-enough alone and will have one thing that requires a funky, IBM/HP developed driver to work properly.

[mtnbkr]

Back when I was doing such things, simply getting Windows 95/98 to run on an IBM Thinkpad was a challenge because of the specialty drivers that had to be obtained from IBM (and were invariably hidden on their site).  The best were the ones that had to be installed while you installed the OS or you couldn't see some critical hardware that the OS needed to see in order to install properly in the first place. 

Chris

[Manedwolf]

Back when I was doing such things, simply getting Windows 95/98 to run on an IBM Thinkpad was a challenge because of the specialty drivers that had to be obtained from IBM (and were invariably hidden on their site).  The best were the ones that had to be installed while you installed the OS or you couldn't see some critical hardware that the OS needed to see in order to install properly in the first place. 

Chris

Ever see a Fujitsu Stylistic tablet? No MS Pen Services for Windows 95, no-go.

[charby]

Back when I was doing such things, simply getting Windows 95/98 to run on an IBM Thinkpad was a challenge because of the specialty drivers that had to be obtained from IBM (and were invariably hidden on their site).  The best were the ones that had to be installed while you installed the OS or you couldn't see some critical hardware that the OS needed to see in order to install properly in the first place. 

Chris

"shivers"

Dell can be that way still but drivers are easy to find on their website.

[mtnbkr]

Ever see a Fujitsu Stylistic tablet? No MS Pen Services for Windows 95, no-go.

Yeah, but you expect that sort of stuff with "specialty" hardware.  The problems I ran into were CDRoms couldn't be seen by the Win95 installer unless you preloaded IBM's drivers with the boot diskette.  Or the downloadable network driver you needed that was too big for a floppy (and only one file) in the days before CD-R/RW was commonly available.  In other words, if you weren't installing from IBM provided media, you were screwed.

It was experiences like that (and the fragile nature of their laptops from that era) that makes me hesitant to touch an IBM laptop even now.

Chris

[ilbob]

Re: The so called network appliance.

I think it died a well deserved death. It was a great idea from the viewpoint of the IT department, because it concentrated power in their hands, where they feel it belongs. The problem is that the cost of the things was never low enough that it justified the slow speed and pain in the neck things that happened. It ended up being little more than the old dumb terminal hung off a slow comm link that every user hated.

Its pretty common these days for factory floor guys to legitimately be out net surfing, and creating spreadsheets and other documents. Why stiffle that creativity? A lot of good stuff has come from that, despite IT departments almost universal attempts to kill it.

[mtnbkr]

I think "net appliance" isn't necessarily the right path, but there should be something below "full powered" PCs that offers the basics all users need (web, email, office apps) on a solid state system without the moving parts of a HDD, etc.  Kind of like a PDA on steroids...  The idea is to create a simple appliance that doesn't have the complexity inherent in modern PCs.  It's not a solution for everyone, just another option.  Price would have to be low though, probably well under $500 for a clamshell/laptop form factor. 

Chris

[Firethorn]

Something's not right.  My FIL's laptop is nowwhere near the spec you described for your machine and it is perfectly useable.  Is it as fast as the same machine running XP?  No, but it doesn't take half an hour to log in (or even 30 seconds).  You can speed up the interface by turning off the Vista specific crap.  FIL's laptop looks like XP/2k for the most part.  He's happy, he only wants it for web, email, and office apps.  Size and price were more important than raw performance.  We bought it at Best Buy for less than $400 8 months ago.

It logs in fairly quickly, it's just the FIRST logon that's slow.  The interface sped up nicely when I selected classic mode.  Was still a pain in the butt, and it seems to like loading all the nice stuff before I logon, at which point it dumps the glitter.

I haven't had much time to work with it.  Bought it because I'm looking towards deploying this fall/winter and my old machine was starting to have power problems.

For me, I like the fingerprint logon now.  I'm going to be seeing if I can get that software transfered over to XP.  Or even just XP64, I want that memory back.

[Manedwolf]

Fingerprint?

If it's the kind with a full-fingertip impression, they're ridiculously easy to trick. Mythbusters did it, and so did a guy in Japan...using melted gummi bears as a positive for a fingerprint just lifted off a surface.

[Iain]

I think "net appliance" isn't necessarily the right path, but there should be something below "full powered" PCs that offers the basics all users need (web, email, office apps) on a solid state system without the moving parts of a HDD, etc.  Kind of like a PDA on steroids...  The idea is to create a simple appliance that doesn't have the complexity inherent in modern PCs.  It's not a solution for everyone, just another option.  Price would have to be low though, probably well under $500 for a clamshell/laptop form factor. 

Chris

What with Asus opening things up with the Eee, others have jumped in. Acer and Dell have announced laptops in that form factor today, and the MSI Wind is looking pretty nice. You'd want something bigger for what you are talking about though, bigger keyboard.

I'm more interested in the Asus Ebox - very small desktop without an optical drive, with an Atom processor, although I'm beginning to think that Atom might be a lot of hype and the new Via Nano looks just as interesting.

Not sure about other distros, but you can stick Ubuntu on a PS3 and stick in a bigger hard drive. I've thought for a while that it would make an excellent all round system if I didn't already have it hooked up to the same 24" monitor as my Ubuntu box is linked to. Access to internet, OpenOffice, games and blu-ray dvds in one quiet and attractive box.