Author Topic: Death penalty: For or against?  (Read 12437 times)

Balog

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Death penalty: For or against?
« on: July 17, 2008, 07:06:01 AM »
Started from another thread. Just curious as to what people thought of the issue, and why. Please post your reasoning after you vote.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 07:10:15 AM »
As I said in the other thread:
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The thought of executing an innocent person is not acceptable to me.  Executions are final.  I realize some people deserve to die for their crimes, that's not the issue.  I don't trust the government to get it right, one innocent person executed for a crime they did not commit is too many.  At least in prison you're alive, and you can still attempt to prove your innocence.  Death is forever.

If a man sees another man rape and kill his wife, and kills him on the spot, I have no problem with it.  It's justice.  If the state does it after the fact, I just can't trust that they got it right.  One innocent person executed as a murderer or child rapist is too many. 

Manedwolf

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 07:12:25 AM »
Some people, like violent terrorists, serial killers and pedophile rapists, cannot ever be released into society, and need to be deleted in a purely objective manner.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 07:14:24 AM »
I'm not suggesting we release them into society.  I am saying the chance of an innocent being executed is too great. 

Joe Demko

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 07:16:48 AM »
The State® does so little right that I am loathe for them to have the power to execute people.
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Firethorn

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 07:19:57 AM »
I voted 'without reservation' because I believe that each death penalty case should stand on 'beyond a reasonable doubt', DNA evidence is just that - evidence.  In many cases there might not BE any true DNA evidence.  Either the murderer was careful and didn't leave any, or only left DNA in reasonable places - you'd expect to find a resident's DNA in their own house, for example.

Same deal with aggreviating factors, particularly 'heinous' acts, etc...  General aggreviating factors:  Something like rape&murder of a minor.  Torture&murder.  Killing an innocent during a robbery, drug deal, etc, could be consider lesser aggreviating factors.

Paragon

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 07:22:49 AM »
I'm all for it.  I personally think that the ones who get sentence to jail for the rest of their lives (with no chance of parole) should be executed as well.  If we've already decided that someone will never again be a part of society, why should we keep them around? 

yesitsloaded

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 07:23:28 AM »
Video footage of the act, Put em down
Several eyewitnesses that all corroborate and don't have a common interest, Put em down
Caught in the act, Shoot em on the spot
They brag about doing it, you want to be treated like a killer?, fine, Put em down
They get brought into court five years after the fact on spotty evidence and are given crappy public defense (not a dig at public defenders, they are just so overworked they can't help it) , no way
They "match the description" and are in the wrong place at the right time, no way
I don't like the way it is handled now. I have nothing against the concept of the death penalty, but the way the government handles it just won't allow me to support the current system. I agree some of the people executed in this country should have been, others not so much.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 07:33:23 AM »
Yes, with two reservations:

1. There must be undeniable proof. Video footage. Admissions. This level of proof.

2. The crime must be absolutely heinous and out of the ordinary. Not just your scumbag bank robber who shoots a cop in the process - but really heinous scumbags. Think this guy..
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HankB

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 07:39:03 AM »
There have been cases where the evidence is SO far beyond question (Richard Speck, John Wayne Gacy, Jeff Dahmer, Colin Ferguson, John Allen Muhammad, Lee Boyd Malvo, Andrew Golden, Mitchell Johnson, Charles Manson, etc.) that the death penalty can be imposed with zero chance of a mistake . . . in which case, the perps OUGHT to be put down.

The bar for proof of guilt needs to be set very high for the state to execute someone - but execution should be an option.
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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 07:45:17 AM »
I'm with Dasmi on this one.  If the State could get it right without exception, then I'd say, "Hang 'em high!".  But the State makes so many mistakes in non-capital cases that I have no confidence in their ability to not execute innocents in capital cases.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 08:13:34 AM »
I voted an unequivocal no, with the understanding that this poll does not address courts martial or killing in self-defense.

The reasons for my near-absolute rejection of the death penalty are in part religious, in part based on my understanding of the law, in part pragmatic, and in part philosophical.

First, religion.  I was raised in the Jewish legal tradition (i.e. Orthodoxy as opposed to modern, philosophically-based variants like Reform and Conservative).  In that tradition the death penalty is imposed in response to many crimes, many of which are purely God/Man crimes, such as sabbath-breaking.  However the death penalty is not, as a practical matter imposed, because the burden of proof is impossibly high, requiring a level of intentionality and witnesses of utterly unimpeachable integrity that it is never reached in a real case.  As a Roman Catholic, the Church has stated that the death penalty evinces an overall lack of value a culture places on human life and is wrong.  On the whole, I prefer the Jewish approach and am bound to subscribe to the Catholic belief.  As a practical matter, they are the same thing.

Second, the law.  I don't like that the death penalty is not imposed equally.  Some murders are deemed more heinous than others, for example.  If we are going to deal in retributionary justice, then to seek the death penalty for a cop-killer or a child murderer is to say that the life of a cop or a child is worth more than the life of a thirty year old single guy who fixes computers for a living.  That doesn't make sense to me.  I don't like the death penalty is disproportionately sought and executed in the case or poor people and black people.  I don't like that that occurs because public defenders are generally less competent than prosecutors, not only because of skill level, but also because of enormous caseloads.  Some of these things are generally unavoidable, but to return to the Jewish concept: until the law is perfect, it shouldn't kill people.  It ain't gonna ever be perfect.  Ergo, it shouldn't ever kill people.

Third, pragmatism.  The death penalty is just too expensive.  In our efforts to provide the huge amount of due process of law that we deem necessary before killing someone, we manage to expend insanely huge amounts of money.  That money would be better spent on making prisons safer, or on improving public defender services for the rest of the criminal population.

Fourth, philosophy.  I think that when people kill other people in a retributionary manner, it brings all of us down to a baser, less civilized level.  We should kill when it is the only way to stay alive, as in self-defense.  We should kill when it is the only way to save a life, as in defense of others.  We should kill when in a larger, political way, t is the only way for us to achieve what our elected officials have determined to be necessary to our security, as in war.  We should kill when the exigencies of war demand it to maintain discipline and to prevent war, which hovers on the edge of civility at the best of times, is in danger of devolving in chaos and causing more destruction, as in courts martial.  We should not kill when it makes us feel more righteous and satisfied in our ability to right a wrong or to exact revenge or to "delete" a person we find unsatisfactory.  There is absolutely no need great enough to justify that sort of killing.  Iff, one could show that the death penalty serves as a deterrent to violent crime, then this argument would change (although the other three would not).  However, that hasn't happened.  The death penalty does not deter criminals from committing violent crimes.

Incidentally, I am also staunchly against the wink-wink, nod-non approach many/most people in this country take about prison rape and other prison violence, and I hope that in my final term of school, I'll have the time to volunteer for Prison Legal Services.  How we treat the people we hate and despise is an excellent measure of our own morality and as long as we tolerate and even expect and demand that cartain types of criminals be subjected to repeated violent rape we will, as a culture, have a serious gap in our moral code.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2008, 08:18:09 AM »
I say yes, in cases where the crime was extreme, and where the evidence is compelling.  Although, compelling evidence doesn't have to come solely in the form of DNA.

I could be persuaded to impose a higher standard of proof for capital punishment than for imprisonment. 

Perd Hapley

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2008, 08:22:30 AM »
Yes, in ALL cases of murder.  Treason can sometimes constitute murder.

No, in cases of child rape or other heinous crimes. 

I voted 'without reservation' because I believe that each death penalty case should stand on 'beyond a reasonable doubt'

Shouldn't every conviction stand on 'beyond a reasonable doubt'?
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taurusowner

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2008, 08:26:05 AM »
If there's highly compelling evidence, than absolutely.  I cannot for the life of me undertand why the likes of the Unabomber and Charles Manso are still alive and costing us millions.

Not only should the death penalty apply to those kinds of cases, but it should be carried out today and with 10$ of rope or a single $.30 bullet to the forehead.

French G.

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2008, 08:27:59 AM »
Quote
The State® does so little right that I am loathe for them to have the power to execute people.

Same opinion here. I think a big problem is evidence now is so technologically beyond the layperson that will sit your jury. So we have a hand-picked expert tell you what to think. Then it all becomes a big smoke and mirrors show of battling witnesses and attorneys. Truth gets lost in the scuffle. Expert witnesses lie based on their own human motivations. I yearn for certain criminals to die, but that's just petty ol' me. I think lock 'em up and leave them is a better idea.

Voted maybe though for cases where direct proof is at hand. Like a video. Eyewitnesses are vexingly wrong often. More maybe is the military, execution is historically rare in our military but in certain cases of treason or battlefield cowardice it should be pretty damn swift. Like the little muslim grenade chucker we had in the US Army a while back.
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Balog

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2008, 08:28:53 AM »
Poll amended to reflect compelling non-DNA evidence.

Yes, with two reservations:

1. There must be undeniable proof. Video footage. Admissions. This level of proof.

2. The crime must be absolutely heinous and out of the ordinary. Not just your scumbag bank robber who shoots a cop in the process - but really heinous scumbags. Think this guy..

Who decides what's heinous? Shooting someone to death is someone better than stomping them? Does not compute.......
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2008, 08:32:28 AM »
Who decides what's heinous? Shooting someone to death is someone better than stomping them? Does not compute.......

Ditto, to quote a play "I never heard a corpse ask how it got so cold."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2008, 08:33:30 AM »
Poll amended to reflect compelling non-DNA evidence.

Yes, with two reservations:

1. There must be undeniable proof. Video footage. Admissions. This level of proof.

2. The crime must be absolutely heinous and out of the ordinary. Not just your scumbag bank robber who shoots a cop in the process - but really heinous scumbags. Think this guy..

Who decides what's heinous? Shooting someone to death is someone better than stomping them? Does not compute.......

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Balog

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2008, 08:35:12 AM »
Poll amended to reflect compelling non-DNA evidence.

Yes, with two reservations:

1. There must be undeniable proof. Video footage. Admissions. This level of proof.

2. The crime must be absolutely heinous and out of the ordinary. Not just your scumbag bank robber who shoots a cop in the process - but really heinous scumbags. Think this guy..

Who decides what's heinous? Shooting someone to death is someone better than stomping them? Does not compute.......

It's like love. You know it when you meet it. Cheesy

And porn, right? So censorship is ok; we know what's over the line when we see it.....  rolleyes
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roo_ster

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2008, 08:39:33 AM »
I voted without reservation. 

The DP is a legitimate punishment that ought to have the same safeguards as others, as explained by firethorn.  It is also unarguably Constitutional to any rational literate man.

I do not expect perfection form people or government institutions.  The institutions and juries will do their best to mete out justice.  To insist on perfection of process is to allow heinous injustice to exist, as it it not just about that one person.  Insistence on perfection is a sign of utopianism and a start down the path to dystopia.  We will do our best as citizens and let God manage the unknowable.

Perhaps the only concession to the permanent nature of the DP would be to dedicate more resources to both prosecution, defense, and the courts.  This way, all can claim they have proper resources commensurate with the gravity of the punishment.  I also would greatly accelerate the process of trial and appeal, using the larger budget to tear through multiple appeals in a single year, versus the current interminable process.  After 3-5 appeals and a year, the defendant's wad is shot and so should he.

I am also not a big fan of incarceration.  It would be my aim to minimize by means of liberal use of the death penalty, corporal punishment*, public humiliation, and other punishments that do not require the state to take on the care & feeding of offenders.  There would be no "life in prison."  Prison would be for recidivists that are pose danger to society somewhere below murder, rape, child molestation, treason (which would all be punished by the DP) and above drug use.  Prison would ALL be solitary confinement as the default.  Any interaction or activity outside the cell would be at the whim of the warden and dependent on the behavior of the prisoner.

My position in favor of the DP is a change from that of my callow youth.  Back then, I made many of the same arguments the anti-DP folks are making here.  Since then, I have a better understanding of human imperfection, institutional capability, and am more certain that evil exists and walks the land.

* I addressed my view on this in an earlier post.  IMO, incarceration is more severe than non-mortal, non-permanent-injuring corporal punishment.  I also deplore the abuse of those placed in prison, be it by the warders or other prisoners.  Prison rape is not a joke.  Nowadays, with AIDS, a convicted thief can get an effective slow-death penalty if raped by an HIV+ prisoner.
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Firethorn

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2008, 08:42:07 AM »
Thought of another aggreviating factor - Cases where the murder was performed to 'conceal' other crimes - Such as the Citizen of Mexico who murdered one girl, and particpated in the murder of the other, to cover their rape.

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Shouldn't every conviction stand on 'beyond a reasonable doubt'?

What I was trying to say is that each case should stand on it's own merits, sticking extra stuff in there means you're no longer operating solely on the basis of 'beyond a reasonable doubt', such as the proposed requiring DNA evidence to give the death penalty.  Consider if we proposed requiring DNA evidence for a rape conviction - all the rapist would have to do is wear a condom*.  If DNA is at all likely to be present and have relevance to the case, either for or against the defendant, sure, test it.  But if it's a case like the mother drowning her own children in the bathtub- What use is DNA evidence?

It's the same deal as requiring witnesses, video, etc...  The murderer has most likely screwed up and left an evidence trail somehow, the specifics of the trail and it's reliability should be determined by the police, court, and jury.  Each capital case is generally going to have it's own specifics.  I mean, murder goes from 'robbery gone wrong' all the way to 'subtle poisoning of spouse due to infidelity'.  (Drug) Deals gone wrong, insurance schemes, serial killers who are wrong in the head, spree killers looking to go out on the news, etc...

A hit by a mafia enforcer isn't likely to leave DNA evidence.  A spousal killing might leave DNA evidence all over the place, but the home's likely contaminated by all the concerned parties to the point of uselessness.  Is the hubby's DNA skin fragments under the wife's fingernails from her fighting him as he strangled her, or because they liked wild sex?

*And not get scratched...

MicroBalrog

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2008, 08:45:52 AM »
Quote
Insistence on perfection is a sign of utopianism and a start down the path to dystopia.

"The perfect is the enemy of the good", you say? I say that if nobody ever insisted on the perfect, there'd never be any good. "
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2008, 08:55:11 AM »
My position in favor of the DP is a change from that of my callow youth.  Back then, I made many of the same arguments the anti-DP folks are making here.  Since then, I have a better understanding of human imperfection, institutional capability, and am more certain that evil exists and walks the land.

Huh.  My anti-DP position is a change from my pro-DP position in my callow(er) youth(er).  I hope I still qualify as vaguely youthful.  

The foundations of my anti approach are of talmudic and canon law origin.  I hope that neither the institutions of Jewish law or the Vatican can be accused of youthful callowness!  

I suspect that part of the reason behind our current absurdly long arrival into adulthood in this current age is that in many ways we have departed from the old philosophical traditions of appealing to authority to inform us, help us determine our positions, and then develop and defend those positions.  People these days tend to rely on how they feel about and what they have perceived about things to make value judgments.  That is necessary to a degree, since a whole lotta smart people have disagreed about a whole lot in the history of the world.  On its own, it means that younger people or people lacking in more expansive experiences cannot possibly have valuable positions on issues.  The trouble with that is that it discounts the contributions of huge proportions of the population simply they are either not sufficiently aged or have, by choice or default, limited their experiences in some ways.

I'll stick with appealing to authority.  That at least allows me make informed choices on issues at some point before I'm ten years from dead. laugh

Firethorn

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Re: Death penalty: For or against?
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2008, 08:58:36 AM »
Second, the law.  I don't like that the death penalty is not imposed equally.  Some murders are deemed more heinous than others, for example.  If we are going to deal in retributionary justice, then to seek the death penalty for a cop-killer or a child murderer is to say that the life of a cop or a child is worth more than the life of a thirty year old single guy who fixes computers for a living.  That doesn't make sense to me.  I don't like the death penalty is disproportionately sought and executed in the case or poor people and black people.  I don't like that that occurs because public defenders are generally less competent than prosecutors, not only because of skill level, but also because of enormous caseloads.  Some of these things are generally unavoidable, but to return to the Jewish concept: until the law is perfect, it shouldn't kill people.  It ain't gonna ever be perfect.  Ergo, it shouldn't ever kill people.

Can't argue about the religious angle, but I WILL say that, generally speaking, I'd value the life of a child over my own(your description fits me to a t, oddly enough).  I do object to the cop being more valuable, though.

As for the racial discrimination, I believe that studies have shown that blacks, controlled for the proportion of crime they commit and economic conditions, are within statistical boundries for convictions.

Still, even if you accept this as true, I think it calls for fixing the system - not necessarily throwing it out.  After all, blacks also end up in prison more for other things.  There are so few executions in the USA each year that a person can individually review each case.

Quote
Third, pragmatism.  The death penalty is just too expensive.  In our efforts to provide the huge amount of due process of law that we deem necessary before killing someone, we manage to expend insanely huge amounts of money.  That money would be better spent on making prisons safer, or on improving public defender services for the rest of the criminal population.

Again, fix the system.  Most death row inmates, even if commuted to LiP, are more expensive than the average inmate.  Add in the extra lifespan and medical costs...  

Quote
Fourth, philosophy.  I think that when people kill other people in a retributionary manner, it brings all of us down to a baser, less civilized level.  We should kill when it is the only way to stay alive, as in self-defense.  We should kill when it is the only way to save a life, as in defense of others.  We should kill when in a larger, political way, t is the only way for us to achieve what our elected officials have determined to be necessary to our security, as in war.  


And executing klllers can qualify under your points - an executed murderer isn't going to kill again.  There IS a murder rate in prison, so even LiP doesn't guarentee that they won't get 'lucky' and kill a prison guard.  Or escape and kill again.

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The death penalty does not deter criminals from committing violent crimes.

Doesn't it?  I believe I've seen studies that go either way.  In any case, going by psychological references, the very slowness of our justice system in executing robs the executions of much of their power.  Executing a man in his fifties for crimes he committed as a teen, means that his crimes have long passed public memory - you have people working who weren't even born when the crimes were committed.

Quote
Incidentally, I am also staunchly against the wink-wink, nod-non approach many/most people in this country take about prison rape and other prison violence, and I hope that in my final term of school, I'll have the time to volunteer for Prison Legal Services.  How we treat the people we hate and despise is an excellent measure of our own morality and as long as we tolerate and even expect and demand that cartain types of criminals be subjected to repeated violent rape we will, as a culture, have a serious gap in our moral code.

I'll agree with you here.  Prison shouldn't be a lark, by any means, but as a correctional facility, it should present an atmosphere where following the rules presents advantages.  Allowing an inmate to rape another undermines the whole idea - the rapist learns he can get away with something, the raped learns that the law can't protect him.