Middle School teacher burns two U.S. Flags

[garrettwc]

From the Louisville, KY Courier Journal:

Stuart Middle School teacher burns U.S. flags in class
Lesson causes uproar in Jefferson

By Chris Kenning
ckenning@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal

A Stuart Middle School teacher has been removed from the classroom after he burned two American flags in class during a lesson on freedom of speech, Jefferson County Public Schools officials said.

Dan Holden, who teaches seventh-grade social studies, burned small flags in two different classes Friday and asked students to write an opinion paper about it, district spokeswoman Lauren Roberts said.

A teacher in the school district since 1979, Holden has been temporarily reassigned to non-instructional duties pending a district investigation. The district also alerted city fire officials, who are conducting their own investigation.

"Certainly we're concerned about the safety aspect," Roberts said, along with "the judgment of using that type of demonstration in a class."

Pat Summers, whose daughter was in Holden's class, said he was among more than 20 parents upset about the incident at school yesterday. Holden apparently told the students to ask their parents what they thought about the lesson, he said.

"She said, 'Our teacher burned a flag.' I'm like, 'What?' " Summers said. "When I was (at the school) at 8 a.m., the lobby was filled with probably 25 or 30 parents" who were upset, he said.

Holden could not be reached yesterday for comment.

Roberts said the flag burning did not appear to be politically motivated, based on an interview with Holden.

Summers said no advance notice had been given to parents, nor were school administrators aware of Holden's plans, Roberts said.

Stuart sixth-grader Kelsey Adwell, 11, said students were abuzz about the incident yesterday.

"They just can't believe that a teacher would do that -- burn two American flags in front of the class," she said. "A teacher shouldn't do that, even though it was an example."

Kentucky has a statute last amended in 1992 making desecration of a national or state flag in a public place a misdemeanor, but the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that flag desecration is protected speech.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky said the federal ruling would trump the state statute.

Congress has tried unsuccessfully to prohibit flag burning with a constitutional amendment. The latest attempt failed in the Senate this year.

Beth Wilson, director of Kentucky's ACLU, said the district is allowed to decide what's instructionally appropriate.

But "if a school is masking their objections to flag burning under the guise of safety, it raises questions about freedom of speech and academic freedom," she said. She said her group would monitor the case but did not plan to get involved at this point.

Regardless, school board member Pat O'Leary said the flag burning was unnecessary and could have offended some students, including those in military families.

"A teacher doesn't do that," he said. "It's just disrespectful."

Rebecca Creech, a Stuart sixth-grader, said she also thought it was "wrong."

Ginny Adwell, Kelsey's mother and the school's PTA president, said some parents who called for Holden to be fired were "going a little bit overboard" and should remember that the teacher was trying to provoke thought.

Brent McKim, president of the Jefferson County Teachers Association, said Holden has "been teaching for many years, and has by all accounts a good teaching record. It was not a political statement and was meant to illustrate a controversial issue. To fire someone because of that would be inappropriate," he said. "It wasn't like he was taking one side or another."

McKim said he was gathering facts that would determine whether the district was justified in removing Holden from the classroom.

In 2001, a teacher in Sacramento, Calif., faced suspension for using a lighter to singe a corner of an American flag in class.

The teacher later was fired, but district officials cited numerous acts of poor judgment and disregard for superiors.

Reporter Chris Kenning can be reached at (502) 582-4697.

Link:
Middle School teacher burns two U.S. Flags

To listen to them talk on the local TV, the administration's main problem with this is the "safety issue" with having an open flame in class.

[BozemanMT]

people who take government money don't really get to speak out with any integrity.
biting the hand that feeds you and all that

I would have a lot more respect if he didn't like the US so much he wasn't taking all my tax money.
hypocrite

[lupinus]

"Dan Holden, who teaches seventh-grade social studies, burned small flags in two different classes Friday and asked students to write an opinion paper about it, district spokeswoman Lauren Roberts said."

You're an ahole not fit to be called an American or teach a monkey much less young people on their way to becoming adults.

Think he would have liked my paper?  I somehow get the fealing he wouldn't have.

[The Rabbi]

In the old days civics was a required course.  It told you what your rights and responsibilities were as an American citizen.  That included how to treat the flag.
Somehow I get the sense that the lesson could have been delivered in a more effective way.

[tyme]

In the old days civics was a required course.  It told you what your rights and responsibilities were as an American citizen.  That included how to treat the flag.

In the old days, I hope people had more important things to worry about than whether someone wants to burn his or her own property.

It would be nice if people were worried about more important things today.  It's a flag.  Get over it.  This flag burning doesn't mean the teacher hates the country.  You're free to disrespect the teacher if you run into him on the street.  Turning it into more than that means you're setting yourself up as guardian of the symbol of the flag, and no one has that right.

[The Rabbi]

In the old days civics was a required course.  It told you what your rights and responsibilities were as an American citizen.  That included how to treat the flag.

In the old days, I hope people had more important things to worry about than whether someone wants to burn his or her own property.

It would be nice if people were worried about more important things today.  It's a flag.  Get over it.  This flag burning doesn't mean the teacher hates the country.  You're free to disrespect the teacher if you run into him on the street.  Turning it into more than that means you're setting yourself up as guardian of the symbol of the flag, and no one has that right.

If a flag were merely one's property there would be no controversy over burning it, just as there is no controversy over burning one's bra.   Nor would be there laws and statutes on its proper display.
I am not setting myself up as guardian of anything.  that is the gov't's responsibility.

[Guest]

Hey, we have at least one poster who has announced to the world that he will a) physically attack anyone he sees burning a flag and b) if they resist, shoot them with his CCW as there would be a "disparity of force" if they fight back.

I'm as much against flag burning as anyone, but there should be limits on how we react, instead of acting like islamofascists and constantly blaming the actions of others for "making" us do things.

[Phantom Warrior]

Hey, we have at least one poster who has announced to the world that he will a) physically attack anyone he sees burning a flag and b) if they resist, shoot them with his CCW as there would be a "disparity of force" if they fight back.

I'm as much against flag burning as anyone, but there should be limits on how we react, instead of acting like islamofascists and constantly blaming the actions of others for "making" us do things.

I'm sorry.  Who said that and where did they say it?  I've reread the thread three times and no where can I a thread that is even close to that.

[Guest]

I'll tell you when they enter this thread.

[HankB]

Some years ago, a friend's son (in high school at the time) had to make an oral presentation for his English class on some topic of interest - he chose flag burning.

The teacher was on record as supporting it as a matter of free speech.

So the kid basically took the position that cross-burning was a matter of free speech, too.

The teacher was black.

Needless to say, rather than being allowed to continue his presentation uninterrupted, the teacher kept butting in . . . having anticipated all the teacher's arguments, the kid had a ready answer to every point he raised.

EVERY point.

Nonetheless, the kid got an "A" on the report, and the teacher was about half-convinced to rethink his position . . . or at least, he conceded that perhaps opposition to flag buring was a valid viewpoint.

[Sindawe]

Hey, we have at least one poster who has announced to the world that he will a) physically attack anyone he sees burning a flag and b) if they resist, shoot them with his CCW as there would be a "disparity of force" if they fight back.

I know whom you're talking about, but don't recall their handle off hand.

For me the intent of the burning is what makes the act offensive or not.  Disposal of a worn flag or as an example of free speech in a teaching environment, I've no issue with that.  When the U.S. flag is spat apon, trodden into the dirt and burned as a sign of disrespect to our culture and civilization while within our territorial borders, THEN you have a big problem.

[280plus]

Well, as long as he didn't try to say he was more popular than Jesus...

[Perd Hapley]

Hey, we have at least one poster who has announced to the world that he will a) physically attack anyone he sees burning a flag and b) if they resist, shoot them with his CCW as there would be a "disparity of force" if they fight back.

Yeah, I remember that argument and all the talk of provocation and violence.  

For me the intent of the burning is what makes the act offensive or not.  Disposal of a worn flag or as an example of free speech in a teaching environment, I've no issue with that.

"As an example of free speech"?  What are you talking about?  Burning a flag just because you can, and burning it in protest of government policy are equally reprehensible.  Burning the American flag in protest means only one thing - that one hates America.  If you don't hate the country, don't burn our flag.  Just so you know, I do not support laws that specifically outlaw burning crosses or flags.

[Guest]

I do not think I would burn a flag except in the most extreme perversion of my country by a dictatorship.

I think I may hang one upside down as a sign of distress sometime, though. Perhaps if Hillary is elected.

[Guest]

In the old days civics was a required course.  It told you what your rights and responsibilities were as an American citizen.  That included how to treat the flag.

In the old days teachers were encouraged to depart from standardized lesson plans and take efforts to challenge the preconcieved notions of their students. its all part of teaching a person to think for themselves. Let the kids decide if they are outraged by this action or not. When the schoolboard and the parents start deciding this it takes the burdon from the students. I would have been a hell of a lot more impressed if the students got together to protest (or endorse) this action. If we are trying to teach kids how to be citizens then the first lesson should be one that involves the need to make a decision based on their own moral compass.

[Perd Hapley]

I do not think I would burn a flag except in the most extreme perversion of my country by a dictatorship.

WHAT?  That is not a reason to burn a flag.  What would make you think it was?  Burning a flag indicates that one hates the country thereof.  It is not a protest of a particular government, politician, policy or practice.  

Disclaimer:  I do not support laws that specifically outlaw burning crosses or flags.

[lupinus]

there is one and only one reason I would burn a flag or agree with someone else doing so, disposal of one which was old and worn.

Disposing of it by fire to me is a lot more dignafied then throwing it in the trash.

I don't support laws agianst it, but then I don't support laws agianst a lot of things I don't like.

[brimic]

I have no problems with people burning flags in protest- so long as they wrap the flag around themselves before lighting it.

[doczinn]

What a coincidence. I myself burned two flags today.

Of course, these were flags that were no longer serviceable and were being disposed of in the preferred manner. (See Flag Code Section 4 Paragraph k.)

[wingnutx]

I don't support laws agianst it, but then I don't support laws agianst a lot of things I don't like.

same here. that said, what a jackass this 'teacher' is.

[tyme]

I'm starting to rethink my position.

Given that this country is turning into a real nightmare, maybe it is fragile enough that flag burning should not be tolerated.  After all, there's not very much worth defending in this country anymore, so let's turn the flag into a fetish and a symbol of what once was, and protect it at all cost!

[Perd Hapley]

What a coincidence. I myself burned two flags today.

Of course, these were flags that were no longer serviceable and were being disposed of in the preferred manner. (See Flag Code Section 4 Paragraph k.)

Why do people always feel the need to point out that burning is the "preferred manner" in which to retire a worn flag?  What does that have to do with burning flags as a protest?  Or do these people just think they're clever?

[client32]

What a coincidence. I myself burned two flags today.

Of course, these were flags that were no longer serviceable and were being disposed of in the preferred manner. (See Flag Code Section 4 Paragraph k.)

Why do people always feel the need to point out that burning is the "preferred manner" in which to retire a worn flag?  What does that have to do with burning flags as a protest?  Or do these people just think they're clever?

I assume they think that the rest of us don't know this and we must be educated at every chance.

I would hope that the majority here is taking the discussion of this particular flag burning in context.  There do seem to be a few that lump all flag burning in one category or another.  Some think we must discuss this beyond the context discussed in the article.

I don't know how I feel about this teacher burning a flag to try and provoke some thoughts into the students.  I don't know if this is the only way he was going to be able to get these kids engaged in class.  I would hope and think that something else would have worked.

Maybe, if nothing else, when these kids see a flag being burned on the news it will actually catch their attention.  I know I saw it on tv from time to time and didn't realy register any thought except that I didn't figure it was actually happening.  When I was a young one, there was a lot of stuff on the news I thought was fictional just because I could not comprehend why anyone would act that way.  Maybe this event will spur some kid to do something great.  I still hope there is another way to get their attention though.

If it were my kid, I probably wouldn't show up at school about it the next day either.  I would discuss it with my kid.  If he/she took issue with what he did, then the kid can lead the charge and I would step in if/when needed.  That is how my parents worked for the most part.  I thought it was better than little Suzy's parents running to the school every other week over something stupid.

Sorry for the incoherent rambling.

[doczinn]

Or do these people just think they're clever?

Actually, I know damn well I'm clever, but that has nothing to do with posting that. It was a snide remark. I make a lot of those.

I assume they think that the rest of us don't know this and we must be educated at every chance.

Well, there are a lot of people who don't know it. The guy who saw me light them, for example.

[brimic]

Given that this country is turning into a real nightmare,

Then why not move to a less nightmarish country. BTW, good luck with that.