Open Carry Arrest - Philadelphia

[Ben]

Let me know if we've discussed this already. I did a search and didn't find anything.

This link took up a good hour of my time between listening to the recordings and reading the thread on a PA firearms forum. The fact that the guy had a recorder going when he was stopped suggests that he was expecting, or maybe wanting to get stopped. Nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned if a guy is serious about exercising his rights and wanting to protect himself. I freely admit I wouldn't put myself through it given how it could kinda turn your life topsy-turvy for a while.

What I found somewhat disgraceful was the attitude of the LEOs that responded as backup for the first officer (starting about 1.5 minutes into the first recording). They sounded like they were straight out of a bad cop movie. Interesting how the language improved after they found the recorder. I do have to give them credit for not taking the recorder from him.

http://www.usacarry.com/philadelphia-open-carrier-harassed-by-police-with-audio/

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/126083-arrested-philadelphia-police-open-carry.html


EDIT: Sorry -- I should have specified NSFW - language.

[Bigjake]

What I don't get, is why he was open carrying in Philly?  That's like the one place in the state where it's specifically off limits..

[AZRedhawk44]

Officer appears to perjure himself at around 4:45.

Lies about hands in pockets, when dialog clearly indicates the guy had his hands out.  Officer does not note it in his commands in the early parts of the audio.

[CNYCacher]

Officer appears to perjure himself at around 4:45.

Lies about hands in pockets, when dialog clearly indicates the guy had his hands out.  Officer does not note it in his commands in the early parts of the audio.

I think I heard the officer say "Let me see your hands!" in the very very beginning.

ETA: Nope, never mind.  The way the officer repeats it and exaggerates the timeline is false.

[gunsmith]

What I don't get, is why he was open carrying in Philly?  That's like the one place in the state where it's specifically off limits..

if it were illegal to open carry he would have been arrested, the detained because they thought it was illegal-then found out they had to let him go & give him his gun back.

It's not "off limits" at all - its just not common.

[Bigjake]

** Open carry in a city of the first class requires a valid PA LTCF or a carry license from a reciprocal state. Ref: Title 18 §6108, Title 18 §6106


My bad,  being from Ohio,  I'd only remembered the part pertaining to here.  PA doesn't recognize an Ohio permit,  so I have to OC when in that state,  and the only restriction was Philly.  That doesn't apply to the guy in question.

[RevDisk]

What I don't get, is why he was open carrying in Philly?  That's like the one place in the state where it's specifically off limits..

Correction.  It is the only city off limits for open carry without a License to Carry Firearms.  PA does NOT have a CCW, as a LTCF conveys more privileges than just concealed carry.  The Uniform Firearms Act is quite simple and a relatively short read, quite well written law. 

Basically, if you have a LTCF, you could open carry an entire gun shop on you.  However, Philly cops do not, have not, and will not understand or comply with the Uniform Firearms Act.  If you wish to do so, expect to be hassled, keep a copy of the UFA on you, and highlight the specific section.  It honestly does help.  Philly cops are specifically not educated on it.  A large number will let you walk with a minor amount of harassment and detainment.

[geronimotwo]

the police response says a lot about the state of affairs in phillidelpia.

[RevDisk]

the police response says a lot about the state of affairs in phillidelpia.

*blink*  Never been to Philly, have you?

Philly does things the Philly way, and that is not necessarily in accordance with state or federal law.  As an example, here in PA, you pay a local tax.  It's collected where you work, and when you file, it gets transferred to the place you live.  Except in Philly.  They keep it.  If you work in Philly and live outside it, you have to pay the local tax twice.  Granted, it's never applied to me, so I have no idea how accurate that is, but I've heard it from virtually everyone I've discussed that with. 

Honestly, you'll win sooner or later in the court room.  Especially and immediately if you get a court room outside of Philly or answering to the state.  Just except to be treated badly until you get to that point.

Hell, read up on General Smedley Butler's time as Director of Public Safety in Philly if you want an entertaining read. 

[Ben]

Apparently the Philly DA has decided to pursue charges:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you wonder why?

beware of those who want to be poster child.  well at least this guy knows the drill in court

[gunsmith]

you wonder why?

beware of those who want to be poster child.  well at least this guy knows the drill in court

I know, those people who go around thinking that if they don't break the law they will be treated like a law abiding citizen-like those miscegenation people, holding hands in public when your bf/gf/wife/husband is a different race, yeak its like legal but they're simply doing it to be a poster child for some kind of movement, yeah man they have the right but that don't mean they should do it in public.

[Matthew Carberry]

gunsmith,

There's a difference between simply "going about your business while legally armed" and, if not actually looking to pick a fight, being more than prepared and welcoming the chance to do so.

This guy is the latter.  He deliberately went into the lion's den wearing meat but prepared with the right script and a recorder.

That's being a poster child.

Think of Rosa Parks, she was asserting her rights, but she deliberately picked the fight because she had a plan on what to do about it.  She too was a poster child, not someone just riding the bus.

[kgbsquirrel]

Pretty much amazed they didn't take, destroy or otherwise tamper with the recorder considering their false exclamation that recording the encounter was illegal.

[Ben]

Pretty much amazed they didn't take, destroy or otherwise tamper with the recorder considering their false exclamation that recording the encounter was illegal.

Reading some of the forum posts, it appears they actually did throw it around and I think even stepped on it. All accidentally of course. Tough little recorder.

[kgbsquirrel]

Reading some of the forum posts, it appears they actually did throw it around and I think even stepped on it. All accidentally of course. Tough little recorder.

Heh, what make and model? Me wants.

[Ben]

Heh, what make and model? Me wants.

RCA VR5220-A recorder  :)

Apparently the cops couldn't figure out how to turn it off  either, which was the first time he reported that he heard it hit the ground.

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/126083-arrested-philadelphia-police-open-carry-page-43.html

[41magsnub]

Wow...  I finally got to listen to this.  

There had better be some serious repercussions for the officers involved.  I don't mean retraining, but firings and appropriate criminal charges for those involved and retraining for the rest of the force.

[kgbsquirrel]

RCA VR5220-A recorder  :)

Apparently the cops couldn't figure out how to turn it off  either, which was the first time he reported that he heard it hit the ground.

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/126083-arrested-philadelphia-police-open-carry-page-43.html

I foresee a possible market in voice recorders that look like common innocuous objects with no outward sign of operation and require a very specific operation to deactivate.

[Perd Hapley]

I foresee a possible market in voice recorders that look like common innocuous objects with no outward sign of operation and require a very specific operation to deactivate.

Or maybe we just haven't noticed them yet.     

[RevDisk]

you wonder why?

beware of those who want to be poster child.  well at least this guy knows the drill in court

He was legally in the right according to the laws of Pennsylvania.  Not sure how one can be a protesting poster child activist...   for following the law.  Actually.  Yea, now that I think about it, that IS kinda rare for Philly.

Wow...  I finally got to listen to this. 

There had better be some serious repercussions for the officers involved.  I don't mean retraining, but firings and appropriate criminal charges for those involved and retraining for the rest of the force.

... 

You've never been to Philly.


No.  There won't be.  Only chance is if the Attorney General of Pennsylvania files charges.  Since the AG of PA was previously elected AG of Delaware County (ie Philly), twice, that will not happen. 

[De Selby]

Arresting for one crime and then charging for an unrelated, candy-@ss offence is a hallmark of poor organization and poor talent in a DA's office.  You can expect he next campaign will be a comedy of errors.

[41magsnub]

You've never been to Philly.
 

Sounds like good reason to keep it that way.

[Tallpine]

Sounds like good reason to keep it that way.

I avoid "The Core" as much as possible 

[RocketMan]

I foresee a possible market in voice recorders that look like common innocuous objects with no outward sign of operation and require a very specific operation to deactivate.

Or maybe we just haven't noticed them yet.    

Google "808 keychain camera".  640x480 30fps full-motion time-stamped video, full audio, recording time depends on the size of the memory card you insert (can be two hours or more), looks just like a car locking keyfob.  I have three of them, dirt cheap, and they work.