Author Topic: How deeply are we in debt?  (Read 4818 times)

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,108
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2008, 10:20:24 AM »
"Good" debt and "bad" debt are subjective classifications.  Unsecured, secured, revolving, fixed principal, insterest only, it doesn't matter.  If you owe money you owe money, no matter what for.  Debt is debt.  Period.

I see people freak out over a few thousand in credit card debt but then have no trouble signing a six or seven year note for a $50,000 car.  These are the people who pride themselve in having no credit card debt but are in the red when it comes to net worth.  That's insane.

By the way, if you don't consider a morgage debt because "you have to live somewhere" I suggest you learn to use a calculator.  Just because your mortgage payment and your rent payment are the same does not make them equal.  Aside from a rent payment you have no financial obligation.  Aside from a mortgage payment you still owe the bank the remainder of your principal balance.  It is still a debt.  Sure, you can recover all or most of it if you sell the house, but it's still a debt and it's still owed.  You still put it in the "minus" column when you figure your net worth.

You don't get a handle on debt by classifying it into submission.  You get a handle on debt by systematic reduction and eventual elimination.  And you don't do that by ignoring one kind of debt and freaking out over another.  The best way to control debt is by not having any.  Save up a little and buy cash instead of buying now on the "no payments until 200-whatever plan."  By a little less instead of a little more.  Figure the long-term costs of potential debt instead of only looking at it in monthly-payment terms.  In other words, use your head.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2008, 11:33:48 AM »
"Good" debt and "bad" debt are subjective classifications.  Unsecured, secured, revolving, fixed principal, insterest only, it doesn't matter.  If you owe money you owe money, no matter what for.  Debt is debt.  Period.

Actually, I'd tend to classify 'good' debt like a business would - will borrowing this money enable me to earn enough to more than cover the payments?   Then borrowing money is the correct decision.  Bad debt is just the opposite - it's not going to enable earning enough to cover the payments.

Consider this:  You spend $10k or so to purchase a set of tools used to run your shop.  The tools are at least as durable as a car, and without them you cannot use your skillset to make money.  With them, you can.

Generally speaking, that would be a 'good debt', much like a vehicle used to go to work or a house to live in.  Without someplace to live, you can't maintain yourself (easily) in a condition to keep most jobs.

On the other hand, racking up $10k in CC debt that you're not paying off anytime soon for a vacation is bad debt.  It's not only a higher interest rate, it's not something that can be used to gain more wealth.

This is a seperate issue from conserving money - IE buying the used car instead of new or selecting an smaller, older house.

Quote
I see people freak out over a few thousand in credit card debt but then have no trouble signing a six or seven year note for a $50,000 car.  These are the people who pride themselve in having no credit card debt but are in the red when it comes to net worth.  That's insane.

Agreed.  Still, as long as things go well they'll eventually have positive equity in the vehicle.  Meanwhile, especially if they're not a car person, at least they have a warranty on the vehicle.

Quote
By the way, if you don't consider a morgage debt because "you have to live somewhere" I suggest you learn to use a calculator.  Just because your mortgage payment and your rent payment are the same does not make them equal.  Aside from a rent payment you have no financial obligation.  Aside from a mortgage payment you still owe the bank the remainder of your principal balance.  It is still a debt.  Sure, you can recover all or most of it if you sell the house, but it's still a debt and it's still owed.  You still put it in the "minus" column when you figure your net worth.

By the same token, you're allowed to put the house on the asset side of the scale.  Assuming sane loan terms, you'll have at least some equity there in a few years.

Quote
You don't get a handle on debt by classifying it into submission.  You get a handle on debt by systematic reduction and eventual elimination.  And you don't do that by ignoring one kind of debt and freaking out over another.  The best way to control debt is by not having any.

I'm aiming to be debt free eventually, but consider this:  The interest rate on my home loan is 4.75%.  If I can get a government bond for, say, 6%, which makes more sense: buying the bond or paying down my mortgage?

Heck, what if I have investments that make a risk adjusted 8%?

On a similar token, my discover card has a 1% cashback(discounting other special offers).  I pay no interest if I pay the balance off in full each month.  Therefore my strategy is to charge everything to the CC, then write a check* in full each month.  Effectively, I have a -1% interest rate on my rought average of $1k revolving debt.  Meanwhile I have the money in my accounts, I could pay by cash or check if I wanted to.  Heck, debit card.

Should I cut my CC up to be 'debt free'?  Not get that 1% back?

Quote
Save up a little and buy cash instead of buying now on the "no payments until 200-whatever plan."  By a little less instead of a little more.  Figure the long-term costs of potential debt instead of only looking at it in monthly-payment terms.  In other words, use your head.

Well, I'd go to a different store that doesn't offer that, because when I did so I discovered the 'no payments' furnature place had prices that started 3X as high as the place that didn't offer credit.

Oh yes, you want to figure total costs - but I wouldn't forget 'cost of capital' either - If your investments are making 10% and the car loan would be 4%**, then the smart idea is to let  the investments sit while you take out the loan for the vehicle.

*Well, to be honest it's an electronic transfer, but you should get the general idea.
**And you can't argue down the price of a 'cash deal' to compensate

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,108
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2008, 11:39:59 AM »
Every cent of your debt could be "good" debt and you would still be in the crapper if you were unable to meet the debt obligations.  Every penny of your debt could be "bad" debt but you would be fine if you are able to meet and manage your obligations.

Debt is still debt.  It is still a negative number in the net worth calculation no matter how "good" it is.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2008, 12:00:51 PM »
Every cent of your debt could be "good" debt and you would still be in the crapper if you were unable to meet the debt obligations.  Every penny of your debt could be "bad" debt but you would be fine if you are able to meet and manage your obligations.

Looks at personal definition -

It'd be fairly tough to do with my definitions, if you only get 'good' debt - which by definition is to enable you to make more money than the payments(over the life of the loan, which should be measurably shorter than the expected life of the product, heck, the loan should be ending about the time the warranty's ending at the latest).

Doesn't prevent bad luck from knocking you out - but that can happen even if you're debt free.  Until that hospital visit, for example.   undecided

Quote
Debt is still debt.  It is still a negative number in the net worth calculation no matter how "good" it is.

Agreed.  Assets go on this side. Debts go on that side.  It's just the way it is.

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,108
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2008, 12:21:15 PM »
Quote
Assets go on this side. Debts go on that side.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

Assets on that side.  Debts on this side.  Get it straight, man!

Brad

(yes, I'm bored...)
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Lennyjoe

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,765
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2008, 12:36:17 PM »
I'm only in debt until I sell my house in Arizona.  After that, the only thing I'll owe on is my F-150.  That is until I buy another house. smiley


wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2008, 01:28:59 PM »
I have credit card debt from tuition/books and some medical expenses (and an M1 Garand). It would look high based on numbers - but I've maneuvered it primarily into the 5-10% range, and I pay down on it every month.

Would be better if I was debt free, sure. But I don't find myself financially crippled, because I just adjust my lifestyle according to whatever debt I have.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

thebaldguy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 789
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2008, 02:39:29 PM »
My uncle summed it up pretty well:

"You want to get to the point where someone is paying you for your money and you don't have to pay anyone for their money!"

How true these words are, and how they are not followed. I have seen some interesting statistics recently; the average american household spends 101% of their income; the average household has $9000+ in credit card debt. Many of us, including our government, are living outside our means and we will pay for it.

Around 10 years ago, we had a few grand in credit card debt, a mortgage, student loan payments, and two car payments. We decided to get rid of our debt. I quit daily coffee at the overpriced coffee shop and ground my own beans. We took lunch to work. We ended the expensive ski/snowboard vacations. We quit going out to bars and restaurants. We paid everything off except for the house 7 years ago. Our $250000.00 duplex will be paid off in less than two years. We are now savers. I amazed by how many people are up to their ears in debt. Things like leasing cars, buying too much house, private schools, etc. are killing us financially. I know people who make 4x what we do live paycheck to paycheck are are saddled with dangerous amounts of debt. It's unreal.

Read the book "The Millionaire Next Door". Be frugal. Get out of debt now and start saving. Quit thinking that our government will help because they are broke as well. Social Security will not give you the money you will want for retirement. I've heard people tell me, "The government can't let us all starve". I will not be broke enough to find out.


JohnBT

  • New Member
  • Posts: 55
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2008, 04:27:38 PM »
"Debt is good."

I'm bad and feel vaguely unamerican from time to time because my home has been paid off for years and I have no debt other than a couple of utility bills that came in the mail today. I'm 57 and live on about half of my takehome. Heck, and that's half of what's left after the $500 (gross) payroll deduction that goes into some assorted tax-sheltered investments that I've been feeding for 30 years.

Bad John

mfree

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,637
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2008, 07:36:42 AM »
I consider mortgages to be a *little* different from debt, but only a little, and only if the asset you're putting money towards is PROPERLY valued.

I bought my house at $85K a couple years ago. Appraisal is ~110K and during the "boom" similar places were in the 140's around here. My mortgage I consider "good" debt since it's well within my means, I'm actually paying ahead, and the asset it covers has appreciated, and will remain in an elevated state unless the market goes completely and utterly TU because I bought at such a low number. If I bought this place at the height of the market I'd be upside down already and that's a hell of a place to be... worse if the market dumps. Right now the market would have to devalue home prices more than 50% for me to be in trouble as far as asset valuation.

Credit debt is such a beast because it's unsecured... call it in, and there's nothing to back it whatsoever.

New vehicle loans are a beast too because there's an immediate hit to the value of the asset and then you're upside down for a while. Gap insurance is a must...

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,510
  • I Am Inimical
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2008, 08:04:15 AM »
"Every cent of your debt could be "good" debt and you would still be in the crapper if you were unable to meet the debt obligations."

Well duh! Smiley

The concept of "good" debt means that you're paying towards building an equity share in something that generally appreciates in value over time.

Will a home always appreciate in value? Don't be stupid. The ONLY always in life is death.

But in the grand scheme of things, look at everything else around you and chances are that the money you paid/debt you incurred to get that item will never be returned.

IF you can weather life in general, and that means keeping a job, staying off crack or meth, and being able to remember to pay your mortgage, your home will, probably 99 times out of 100, but a winning proposition for you.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Myself

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2008, 11:06:00 AM »
No debt.

No job. 

The two go well together.

grislyatoms

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,740
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2008, 11:50:40 AM »
No debt.

No job. 

The two go well together.


Showoff. rolleyes grin
"A son of the sea, am I" Gordon Lightfoot

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2008, 03:58:17 PM »
My credit card company probably hates me.  I always pay off the balance, and never charge anything to it that I know I won't be able to pay for at the end of the month, so my CC debt is always small and I never pay interest. Its mostly there for emergencies.


The company that's handleing my student loans, however, is probably salivating at the thought of me graduating in a couple of years.  I think I'll be in the red to a tune of something like $30,000 after graduation.   undecided

Hopefully, it won't take me too long to pay off.  I plan on devoting a large portion of my income each year to doing so.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2008, 04:06:37 PM »
Since I'm self-employed (not that it matters anyway), I went ahead filled out the Chase Business card they kept sending me - never know when I might have an emergency, etc.

Got approved for what I consider an obscenely high credit limit at 9% fixed. Currently weighing the options of running it up on guitars, cameras and guns (and then faking my own death), or taking a two-month vacation to Europe (and then faking my own death).
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

doc2rn

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 164
Re: How deeply are we in debt?
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2008, 06:02:46 PM »
Quote

9.2 trillion USD