Author Topic: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...  (Read 1877 times)

thebaldguy

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FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« on: March 05, 2008, 04:21:12 PM »
I thought the government would prevent this...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/05/AR2008030500463.html?nav=rss_email/components

FBI Chief Confirms Misuse of Subpoenas
Security Letters Used to Get Personal Data


By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 6, 2008; Page A02

FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III told senators yesterday that agents improperly used a type of administrative subpoena to obtain personal data about Americans until internal reforms were enacted last year.

Mueller said a forthcoming report from the Justice Department's inspector general will find that abuses recurred in the agency's use of national security letters in 2006, echoing similar problems to those identified in earlier audits.

Inspector General Glenn A. Fine reported a year ago that the FBI used such letters -- which are not subject to a court's review -- to improperly obtain telephone logs, banking records and other personal records of thousands of Americans from 2003 to 2005. An internal FBI audit also found that the bureau potentially violated laws or agency rules more than 1,000 times in such cases.

Mueller testified that a follow-up report from Fine's office, due to be released this month, will "identify issues similar to those in the report issued last March." But Mueller emphasized that the time frame in the report "predates the reforms we now have in place" to avoid further abuses.

"We are committed to ensuring that we not only get this right, but maintain the vital trust of the American people," Mueller said.

At yesterday's hearing, Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.) condemned the FBI's "widespread illegal and improper use of national security letters," and urged Mueller to be more attentive to the problem.

"Everybody wants to stop terrorists," Leahy said. "But we also, though, as Americans, we believe in our privacy rights and we want those protected."

A year ago, lawmakers of both parties called for limits on the FBI's use of the security letters, which demand consumer information from banks, credit card companies and other institutions without a warrant as part of investigations into suspected counterterrorism and espionage. Congress has not followed through with legislation, however, and Mueller sought to assure lawmakers that internal changes will solve the problems. He said new FBI procedures will "minimize the chance of future lapses," including the creation of a compliance office tasked with monitoring the use of security letters.

But Michael German, a former FBI agent who is national security policy counsel at the American Civil Liberties Union, said in a statement that "it's becoming more and more obvious that outside oversight is essential since the Bureau's learning curve is sadly unimpressive."

"Instituting judicial oversight would guarantee that someone would be looking over the shoulder of agents using a tool as invasive as an NSL," German said. The ACLU and other civil liberties groups say the government's use of security letters should be significantly narrowed or brought under court supervision.

Under questioning from Leahy about the Bush administration's controversial use of harsh techniques for interrogating suspected terrorists, Mueller defended the FBI's practice of using "noncoercive" techniques on criminal and terrorism suspects, saying they are "effective and sufficient and appropriate."

Mueller said the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit has found that building trust with prisoners is "particularly effective." He pointed to the FBI's interrogation of Saddam Hussein, which yielded crucial details about the former Iraqi government's actions and motivations.

"Our techniques and the experts that we have . . . believe that our techniques are effective, and are sufficient and appropriate to our mission," Mueller said. "And those techniques are founded on a desire to develop a rapport and a relationship."

President Bush is expected to veto a bill this week that would ban the CIA from using harsh techniques, including waterboarding, a type of simulated drowning.




vernal45

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2008, 08:14:34 PM »
Quote
Say it ain't so...

It aint so.  Because if this was true, in a free country with the people in control, some FBI agents would be facing charges like violating civil rights under color of law, among other charges.  He admits that agents:
Quote
An internal FBI audit also found that the bureau potentially violated laws or agency rules more than 1,000 times in such cases.
.

So its a farce.  Nothing to see here.  Cause not crime happened if no one single person gets brought up on charges and put to the jury.



De Selby

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2008, 08:23:57 PM »
This is old news-it isn't "widespread abuse", it's a law that isn't terribly clear on what the limits are for the use of the investigation tool.  The FBI agents who did this almost certainly believed they were complying with the law and using those mechanisms available by law, not using a "loophole" to beat the system.

That said, I think there should be limits.  It's not that the FBI agents are bad people maniacally looking to violate rights; it's that they do their jobs in accordance with the rules.  If the rules aren't properly drafted, you can't cry foul when this sort of thing results.
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The Rabbi

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2008, 04:30:01 AM »
And how did anyone find out about it?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2008, 04:49:10 AM »
well heck they turned themselves in....  that proves the conspiracy!.... er  i mean   .... well

HankB

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2008, 08:55:37 AM »
I don't mind the Feds snooping on foreigners, tapping foreign phone lines, listening to foreign cell phones . . . I figure keeping track on "them" is part of their legitimate job.

But when American Citizens in the USA with no criminal history are the object of intrusive surveillance without a warrant for anything less than an imminent act of terror . . . then some Feds need to go to jail themselves.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2008, 06:15:02 PM »
This is old news-it isn't "widespread abuse", it's a law that isn't terribly clear on what the limits are for the use of the investigation tool.  The FBI agents who did this almost certainly believed they were complying with the law and using those mechanisms available by law, not using a "loophole" to beat the system.

BS.

You don't REALLY believe that ... do you? A huge percentage of FBI agents have law degrees. They knew what the law said, they knew what the parameters were, and they went ahead and abused the system anyway.

Quote
"Instituting judicial oversight would guarantee that someone would be looking over the shoulder of agents using a tool as invasive as an NSL," German said. The ACLU and other civil liberties groups say the government's use of security letters should be significantly narrowed or brought under court supervision.

Isn't that what those "search warrant" thingies were supposed to be all about? But the dot-gov assured us that they were such good, respectful little guardians of freedom that it wouldn't be a problem to authorize a little snooping without a court-issued search warrant, just once in awhile. For once I find myself in agreement with the ACLU. The dang spy court is nothing but a rubber stamp for the FBI anyway (what did they approve, 99% of warrant requests?), yet the agency wasn't satisfied with even that token level of oversight. And we're supposed to TRUST them now?

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vernal45

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2008, 07:56:50 PM »
Quote
The FBI agents who did this almost certainly believed they were complying with the law and using those mechanisms available by law, not using a "loophole" to beat the system.

That said, I think there should be limits.  It's not that the FBI agents are bad people maniacally looking to violate rights; it's that they do their jobs in accordance with the rules.  If the rules aren't properly drafted, you can't cry foul when this sort of thing results.

You remember "ignorance of the law is no excuse"  If it applies to me, it applies to everyone.

De Selby

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2008, 07:58:34 PM »
No, actually I do believe they did know the law and followed it to the best of their knowledge.

The law wasn't terribly clear-the position that using these letters for the above listed purposes is illegal is an argument being made today, not a summary of the law as it's been applied.  That's what happens with poorly written or thought out laws-you get different ideas about what the law requires. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MechAg94

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2008, 03:20:41 AM »
Yeah, and the fact that many of them are lawyers just makes it more likely that they would try to find a loophole or interpretation to let them do what they want.
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crt360

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2008, 10:27:05 AM »
No, actually I do believe they did know the law and followed it to the best of their knowledge.

The law wasn't terribly clear-the position that using these letters for the above listed purposes is illegal is an argument being made today, not a summary of the law as it's been applied.  That's what happens with poorly written or thought out laws-you get different ideas about what the law requires. 

That's the truth.  I see poorly written, ambiguous, and less than carefully thought out laws all the time (which, in my estimation, happens when you have good-intentioned and/or heavily pressured legislators, with little or no real legal experience, trying to do the job they got themselves elected to and want to keep).  Obviously, I am going to argue that such a law favors the actions of my client or agency, as Mech mentioned.

I seem to recall debate over the issue at the time they were drafting the legislation.  That would have been a good opportunity to add some clarity, unless the legislators intended the law to have ambiguity favoring the FBI,  and now the FBI is systematically dishing out a load of "self-auditing" to make us feel like they took care of the problem, when in fact they have possibly grossly under-reported it's use and have no real intention of changing its application.  smiley
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Antibubba

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2008, 06:40:37 PM »
Quote
A year ago, lawmakers of both parties called for limits on the FBI's use of the security letters, which demand consumer information from banks, credit card companies and other institutions without a warrant as part of investigations into suspected counterterrorism and espionage. Congress has not followed through with legislation, however, and Mueller sought to assure lawmakers that internal changes will solve the problems. He said new FBI procedures will "minimize the chance of future lapses," including the creation of a compliance office tasked with monitoring the use of security letters.
 

Translation: Congress will continue to make squawks of indignation without taking any real action, as long as the FBI isn't so incompetent as to be caught infringing the Constitution.

Funny, it sure sounds like business as usual to me.
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Finch

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2008, 06:44:57 PM »
They are the FBI, a part of the federal government. It's ok. They can do what they want. If we don't let them do what they want, the terrorists win. Dontcha know that?

Privacy? Not with terrorists around.

Freedom of movement? Not with terrorists around.

Freedom of speech? Nope.

We need to learn that one must sacrifice liberty to obtain security.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: FBI misuses supoenas? Say it ain't so...
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2008, 06:52:46 PM »
and sneaky devils that they are they reported their own activities. obviously trying to lull us into a false sense of security while they slip the shackles on.fortunatly there are a few cutting edge folks on the alert to warn those of us asleep at the switch