hybrid car-battery replacement?

[griz]

Hybrids have been out several years now.  Surely there are some owners that have had to replace the battery by now.  Although I don't believe hybrids are suited for me, I do have a few questions if anybody has experience with them.
Do the batteries get replaced after "X" number of miles or "X" number of years?
Do you start to lose performance as the batteries get old?
How much do they cost?
What happens to the old batteries?

[Perd Hapley]

You see, driving a hybrid car has a such a positive effect on your karma that the batteries will last for years, just because the universe recognizes how righteous and good you are.

[Firethorn]

Hybrids have been out several years now.  Surely there are some owners that have had to replace the battery by now.  Although I don't believe hybrids are suited for me, I do have a few questions if anybody has experience with them.

From what I've heard, no professionally produced hybrid car has needed a battery replacement yet.  Many haven't even bothered to set sale costs.
I've also heard that they've started warrentying the batteries for ten years.

Do the batteries get replaced after "X" number of miles or "X" number of years?

As for replacement, it'd be on a basis of lost capacity.  At some point the user should notice that the car can't operate on battery for an acceptable period of time anymore, or it just doesn't have the pickup and oomph it used to.  While this can be critical with a pure electric vehicle, where it comes straight off the range, a hybrid can just run the gas engine more often, but at shorter durations.

The main wear for these batteries would be the number of charges.  Age doesn't seem to affect NiMH as much as LiIon right now.  Even lead-acid can last for years if it's kept at least moderately charged.  It'd be highly dependent upon driving practices and how the battery subsystem is programmed.

Thing is, batteries tend to wear the most when they're fully charged/discharged.  If you only charge the battery to ~80% and discharge it to ~30% on average, it's life will likely last more than 100 times the number of cycles than a 100-0% discharge pattern.

Unlike pure electric vehicles, a hybrid is far more gentle on it's batteries.  Heck, in some ways they're more gentle, in proportion, than a regular car is on it's battery(much more capacity in comparison).

Do you start to lose performance as the batteries get old?

In the extreme, probably.  The first thing you'd notice though would be lower range on electric power.  The gas engine would have to operate more frequently, probably costing you some milage, though I wouldn't be suprised if you didn't notice much power loss until the battery pack has lost more than half it's capacity.

How much do they cost?

Well, upgrading to a hybrid runs around $3-5k, So $1k-4k would probably be the range.

What happens to the old batteries?

They're recycled.  Just like other large battery packs such as standard car batteries, there's a well establish recycling/refurbishing infrastructure in place.  Well, as long as they're properly disposed of.

[Silver Bullet]

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=1219

[Firethorn]

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=1219

Unfortuantly, there's a lot of mistakes in there.

1.  Batteries are recycled.  If you have enough of them, there are companies that'll pay you for them.
2.  The prices quoted for replacing the batteries sounds more like the cost for a pure electric, and without trade in.
3.  Ethanol has ~2/3'rds the energy of gasoline, not half.  Much of the loss of gas milage from going to ethanol is because the tuning of the engine for ethanol was lousy.  (GM makes flex fuel vehicles for the credits, not the efficiency).  An efficient flex fuel vehicle would probably demand premium gasoline due to increasing the engine compression.

Battery longevity is also working out to be longer than expected.

To go a little further, NY is currently experimenting with ford escape hybrids as taxis(results so far are promising), and there's a guy up in canada who drove a hybrid for years and years and hundreds of thousands of miles.

While they're not economic enough for me yet, there are certain fields where they now make sense.  IE lots and lots of city driving such as big city cabs.

Personally, I'm waiting for them to produce a pluggable hybrid that I can run off of electricity most of the time.  Only problem is that you have to increase the size of the battery again, but electricity is generally 1/3rd of the cost per mile compared to gasoline(in a hybrid, to boot).  My annual fuel cost at $3/gallon gasoline is ~$1000.  Droping that to ~$400(most, not all, would be electric) would give me $600 more in savings.

Making a 1k mistake is a whole lot easier than a 5k mistake.  Hybrids are getting down into the hundreds, well within the range of 'I want it' being an acceptable excuse for those with disposable income.  People pay more to get the styling they want, such as fancy rims.

[Art Eatman]

BTU per pound is BTU per pound.

"Ethanol has ~2/3'rds the energy of gasoline, not half.  Much of the loss of gas milage from going to ethanol is because the tuning of the engine for ethanol was lousy."

You can tune til Hell freezes over, but 2/3 is 2/3 and you're only gonna get 2/3 the miles per pound.  

That's why, back around 1963, the Indy car guys went to gasoline; better mileage.  After the Eddie Sachs/Dave McDonald debacle in 1964, they went back to alky.  Safety issue.

Right now, absent your tax-dollar government subsidy to ADM Corp, alky costs more to produce than gasoline.  But, availability is becoming an issue--and will continue.

Art

[Sindawe]

Hmmm... a friend inherited a Honda Insight from her father a few months ago.  It needed some work (oil had never been changed and there was an estimated 10 quarts in engine since the father just kept adding more oil) and the battery pack had to be replaced.  IIRC, the cost was around $5,000 all told and the batteries had to be shipped from Japan.

[richyoung]

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=1219

Unfortuantly, there's a lot of mistakes in there.

1.  Batteries are recycled.  If you have enough of them, there are companies that'll pay you for them.

REGULAR car batteries are recycled - they are almost completely lead or lead alloys, except for the outer shell, so recovering their metallic content is fairly easy, (aside from OSHA issues).  Electric car and hybrid batteries are an entirely different animal - other than the hybrid car dealers themselves, can you name any company that will even ACCEPT them for recycle, much less pay for them - (and, btw, the car companies do it to promote sales and gloss over the whole replacement battery issue - I suspect dead batteries go right into the landfill as toxic waste).

2.  The prices quoted for replacing the batteries sounds more like the cost for a pure electric, and without trade in.

If, as I suspect, they AREN'T being recycled, but in fact dumped, you not only WON'T get a "trade in", you'll likely be hit with an additional "disposal fee" - just like tires are now, in part to encourage recycling even though free-market economics won't support it - (Socialism, anybody?)

The problem with hybrids is that you increase the weight of the vehicle, which requires less payload, heavier brakes and suspension, all of which require MORE energy to move.  Unless sufficient energy is recovered through regenereative braking and more efficient gas engine operation, its not worth it.  Taxi service may be an exception, but it would need to be minivan based to have enough room for passengers and luggage.

[Firethorn]

BTU per pound is BTU per pound.

You can tune til Hell freezes over, but 2/3 is 2/3 and you're only gonna get 2/3 the miles per pound.

And efficiency is efficiency.  If you increase efficiency, which is what I'm talking about.  The higher the compression ratio, the more efficient engine, up until you start running into compression detonation.  Ethanol has a much higher octane rating, indicating it, like premium, can take the higher compressions without causing knocking.
   

Right now, absent your tax-dollar government subsidy to ADM Corp, alky costs more to produce than gasoline.  But, availability is becoming an issue--and will continue.

Agreed.  We're going to have to switch sometime, and I like seeing alternatives being explored.  It's just frustrating that I don't see companies moving in some of the directions I see as having potential.  Such as a hybrid that can be plugged in, so it uses cheap electricity

REGULAR car batteries are recycled - they are almost completely lead or lead alloys, except for the outer shell, so recovering their metallic content is fairly easy, (aside from OSHA issues).  Electric car and hybrid batteries are an entirely different animal - other than the hybrid car dealers themselves, can you name any company that will even ACCEPT them for recycle, much less pay for them - (and, btw, the car companies do it to promote sales and gloss over the whole replacement battery issue - I suspect dead batteries go right into the landfill as toxic waste).

Hybrid cars use two battery technologies today.  Lead-Acid, which is the same as standard car batteries.  Generally the only difference is additional capacity and the adjustments to the chemistry for deep-cycle use.  The other is NiMh, and that is also highly recyclable, the nickel is a valuable metal.  Even if it goes to the dump, it's not 'toxic waste'.

One emerging technology is LiIon, the same as what's in laptops and cell phones today.  And yes, it's hazardous outside of the packaging.  On the other hand, they're developing methods for recycling even them.  Another point is that the theoretical minimum cost for a LiIon battery is less than NiMH.  Lithium's actually fairly easy to get.  Sorry, no source, I read it while doing some research on pure electric vehicles.

Hmmm... a friend inherited a Honda Insight from her father a few months ago.  It needed some work (oil had never been changed and there was an estimated 10 quarts in engine since the father just kept adding more oil) and the battery pack had to be replaced.  IIRC, the cost was around $5,000 all told and the batteries had to be shipped from Japan.

Ouch.  Still, indicated that the battery pack has to cost less than $5k, I imagine a good chunck of the cost was fixing the engine.  Still, given the state of the engine, I wouldn't be suprised if the battery pack suffered abuse as well.

Honestly, I'd almost choose to go with a short ranged pure electric vehicle(50-100 mile range), and just rent a longer ranged vehicle when I travel.  If you're willing to accept the shorter range you can substantially drop the cost of the batteries.

[richyoung]

It's just frustrating that I don't see companies moving in some of the directions I see as having potential.  Such as a hybrid that can be plugged in, so it uses cheap electricity

...the "cheap electricity" that is already in such short supply now, much less when people start charging their cars?  From whence will allthis extra electricity come from?  And if its generated with fossil fuels, what have we REALLY changed, except the pollution location?

The other is NiMh, and that is also highly recyclable, the nickel is a valuable metal.

Many things in dumps have "valuable metals" in them - the problem is the cost of recycling often exceeds the cost of new production.  But since you seem to tbe the expert, where do I take my half-ton NimeH battery back to, and how much will they pay for it?  If its so easily recycled, I'm sure you will find lots of places willing to pay for it, right?  Examples please...

Even if it goes to the dump, it's not 'toxic waste'.

Your link is from 2002, labeled "advisory only", and even IT admits that state and local laws may vary.  Not to mention it applies to consumer batteries in conventional sizes (D, AA, 9 volt) - NOT half-ton packs.  Take one to your local land fill - see if they let you leave it!

One emerging technology is LiIon, the same as what's in laptops and cell phones today.  And yes, it's hazardous outside of the packaging.

...better not have an acccident then.  Hindenburg, anyone?

[Silver Bullet]

I heard someone on the radio talking up hybrids.  Among other things, he was gushing about the great resale value it would have.

Not if there's going to be a $5000 battery replacement expense.  You can figure that the resale value will be depressed by whatever that expense is.

[Firethorn]

I heard someone on the radio talking up hybrids.  Among other things, he was gushing about the great resale value it would have.

Not if there's going to be a $5000 battery replacement expense.  You can figure that the resale value will be depressed by whatever that expense is.

Agreed, though it's the same with real cars, you have to figure out 'Okay, what's the likelyhood of me having to rebuild/replace the engine, tranny, etc in 5 years?'.  Personally, I'm looking forward to the results for the experiment going on right now in NYC with hybrid escapes being used as taxis.  They supposably get better than twice the gas milage of the crown vics(making the cabbies happy, as they buy the gas), the city's happy about decreased emissions, and the customers are happy because they can be 'green' when they take a taxi, makes the cabbies happy again as it's easier to pick up fares.

On the other hand, when I figured it out, the difference between a honda civic and a honda civic hybrid would make it such that I'd never make my money back.  Then again, I only drive ~10k miles a year, mostly highway.  I hear them NYC drivers break 100k/year.

Oh, and I looked more at liIon, it seems that they're safe once they fully discharge.  I'll admit that I was wrong about the battery recycling.  It does indeed cost more money right now to recycle.

As for the electricity, well, I'd personally like to see new nuke plants built.  Even so, I think that it'd take less investment to increase our generation capacity than to increase biofuel production enough to replace our dinofuel usage.  Even better, most car charging would take place at night, when demand is generally at it's lowest.  Heck, put it on a seperate circuit, have the electric company give them a discount in exchange for stopping or slowing the charge during peak demand, and really crank up the charging during supply dips(basically allow the power companies to even out the demand).

[Silver Bullet]

Agreed, though it's the same with real cars, you have to figure out 'Okay, what's the likelyhood of me having to rebuild/replace the engine, tranny, etc in 5 years?'.

Yes, but the battery replacement costs for the hybrids are not instead of a regulars rebuild costs, they are in addition to the rebuild costs.

Speaking of engine rebuild costs:  dont the hybrids face the prospect of having to rebuild both the internal combustion engine and the electric motor ?

As for the electricity, well, I'd personally like to see new nuke plants built.

I agree.

[Brad Johnson]

Take the cost of the replacement battery and consider it an overall fuel cost, then compare actual costs and convert to equivalent MPG to see just how efficient electric or hybrids actually are (or aren't).


http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=3178


Brad

[Firethorn]

Speaking of engine rebuild costs:  dont the hybrids face the prospect of having to rebuild both the internal combustion engine and the electric motor?

Not really, high quality electric motors, especially AC ones, will likely outlast the body they put it into.  Heck, some of the electric car sites shows people ripping their systems out of their original vehicles to put it into another.

And, at least for miles driven, the IC engine should require less maintenance, because it's being used less.  Plus, if they do a proper design, it should be more of a high reliability static RPM type engine than the ones we have now that are designed to operate across a wider range of RPMs.

[ilbob]

I figured once that even with the subsidies and the current price of gas, you would have to go something like ten years to break even, assuming no battery pack replacement at $5000 a pop.

As I understand it, the cost of replacement battery packs is being underwritten by the car companies for the time being. So far, it has not been a big issue, but there are very few of them out there for more than a couple of years.

The bottom line is that, at present, they are only economical if you do a lot of stop and go, city type driving. One would think the taxi/delivery companies would jump onto this band wagon with both feet, but for some reason they have not done so. Probably because the vehicles are not really designed for that type of service.

Personally, I think natural gas powered cars are mid term a better choice than any other technology on the horizon. Clean and efficient, and there is virtually unlimited amounts of natural gas to be had (think thousands of years worth of methane as hydrides just waiting at the bottom of the sea for someone to go get them).

[Sindawe]

Ouch.  Still, indicated that the battery pack has to cost less than $5k, I imagine a good chunck of the cost was fixing the engine.  Still, given the state of the engine, I wouldn't be suprised if the battery pack suffered abuse as well.

Sorry, I should have been more precise.  Most of the cost was for the battery.  The engine just needed the excess oil removed and tuned up since it had very few mile on it.  This was the 2nd engine, the first died after getting NO oil.  The friends father was getting REALLY spacy in his declining years.

Natural gas as a motor fuel is an option, but supplies are not unlimited.  As far as I know, nobody as yet figured out a way to get at the methane in the hydrates and make it economically viable.  IMHO hydrogen is gonna be the way to go in the long run.  Burned in IC engines, no need for exotic fuel cells.

[Stand_watie]

We just replaced the batteries on the forklifts at work. No idea how similar in function or expense they are to hybrid car batteries (if it gives anybody comparison ideas, they're about 3ft x 4ft x30in and probably weigh a ton).

4k each.

[Firethorn]

Sorry, I should have been more precise.  Most of the cost was for the battery.  The engine just needed the excess oil removed and tuned up since it had very few mile on it.  This was the 2nd engine, the first died after getting NO oil.  The friends father was getting REALLY spacy in his declining years.

Wow, I guess he was getting spacy.  Sheesh, should of just taken it to a mechanic/dealer/oil change joint.  It's not that much.  Then again, his condition limited logical action.

Natural gas as a motor fuel is an option, but supplies are not unlimited.  As far as I know, nobody as yet figured out a way to get at the methane in the hydrates and make it economically viable.  IMHO hydrogen is gonna be the way to go in the long run.  Burned in IC engines, no need for exotic fuel cells.

Actually, NG is running out faster than oil right now.  That's why I don't consider it a valid alternative.

We just replaced the batteries on the forklifts at work. No idea how similar in function or expense they are to hybrid car batteries (if it gives anybody comparison ideas, they're about 3ft x 4ft x30in and probably weigh a ton).

4k each.

Very similar actually.  Though given the cost and weight, they're probably deep-cycle lead acid rather than NiMh.  NiMh tends to be 1.5-2 times as expensive, but half the weight for the capacity.  With a forklift, you need counterbalance weight anyways, so why not?

Hybrid batteries tend to be more limited by current capacity than kw/h capacity.  It takes a lot of amps to get a vehicle up to 60mph, even at 300 volts.  I've read about the guys making PHEV's adding additional batteries to get more range off from electric, and they mentioned a couple times how much cheaper their larger battery packs were per kw/h compared to the one that came with the HEV, because their larger packs naturally came with the higher current capacity, didn't have to be specially engineered to be able to deliver 100 amps.

[Stand_watie]

Sorry, I should have been more precise.  Most of the cost was for the battery.  The engine just needed the excess oil removed and tuned up since it had very few mile on it.  This was the 2nd engine, the first died after getting NO oil.  The friends father was getting REALLY spacy in his declining years.

Wow, I guess he was getting spacy.  Sheesh, should of just taken it to a mechanic/dealer/oil change joint.  It's not that much.  Then again, his condition limited logical action.

Natural gas as a motor fuel is an option, but supplies are not unlimited.  As far as I know, nobody as yet figured out a way to get at the methane in the hydrates and make it economically viable.  IMHO hydrogen is gonna be the way to go in the long run.  Burned in IC engines, no need for exotic fuel cells.

Actually, NG is running out faster than oil right now.  That's why I don't consider it a valid alternative.

We just replaced the batteries on the forklifts at work. No idea how similar in function or expense they are to hybrid car batteries (if it gives anybody comparison ideas, they're about 3ft x 4ft x30in and probably weigh a ton).

4k each.

Very similar actually.  Though given the cost and weight, they're probably deep-cycle lead acid rather than NiMh.  NiMh tends to be 1.5-2 times as expensive, but half the weight for the capacity.  With a forklift, you need counterbalance weight anyways, so why not?

Since you are apparently familiar with forklift batteries I'll add some more detail to perhaps help in the comparison. They are approximately twelve year old mitsubishi all-electric forklifts with a 5,000 lb  lift capacity. I think they weigh about 7,500 lbs each (I arrived at that weight guestimate, because that's about what they'll lift before the rear wheels come off the ground).

[Firethorn]

Since you are apparently familiar with forklift batteries I'll add some more detail to perhaps help in the comparison. They are approximately twelve year old mitsubishi all-electric forklifts with a 5,000 lb  lift capacity. I think they weigh about 7,500 lbs each (I arrived at that weight guestimate, because that's about what they'll lift before the rear wheels come off the ground).

I'm not that familiar.  I've seen a couple much like that in the warehouses, talked with the operator a bit, looked at the batteries, watched them zip around moving around the cargo we would of had to lug by hand otherwise.

And I bet the reason you have them instead of gasoline/diesel versions is the same reason we have them:  They're used in an enclosed enviroment and you don't want the emissions in a more or less sealed enviroment.

[Stand_watie]

..And I bet the reason you have them instead of gasoline/diesel versions is the same reason we have them:  They're used in an enclosed enviroment and you don't want the emissions in a more or less sealed enviroment.

That is part of it. We're in a semi open environment, with large cargo doors open all the time, windows that do not close and giant fans that push air out of the plant running 24 -7, all the same the plant safety people regularly come around and check the air to make sure we're up to osha specs, and I doubt vehicles fumes would help that. We do have one diesel forklift that the maintenance shop uses. I think it is a larger model and intended for a lot more outdoor use (much larger wheels). I actually think the storage and refilling of the fuel would present a greater concern from the safety aspect for the OSHA worries than the fumes.