Palis bite, or rather, shoot the hand that feeds them.

[Manedwolf]

How are human beings this incredibly stupid? Just...how?

Four Palestinian gunmen stormed through the border fence in Gaza and attacked an Israeli cargo crossing in a daring daylight raid. They shot and killed two Israeli civilians who work for the company that supplies fuel to Gaza.

Two Islamic militant groups, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Resistance Committees, claimed responsibility for the shooting.

Islamic Jihad spokesman Abu Ahmad described the raid as a "unique and complicated operation." The Islamic militant group Hamas, which rules Gaza, said it was a "heroic and courageous" attack.

Cabinet Minister Gideon Ezra said Israel should cut off fuel supplies to Gaza.

I agree.

http://voanews.com/english/2008-04-09-voa48.cfm

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Islamic Jihad spokesman Abu Ahmad described the raid as a "unique and complicated operation."

Polite way to say FUBAR?

[Nitrogen]

And they wonder why ambulances take 45mins to 2 hours to get in and out of the area...

[De Selby]

Further proof that threatening people with death does not motivate them to do what you want them to do.

That is the root of this conflict-withholding fuel or dropping bombs is not going to solve it, because contrary to the ideological commitments to violence that some people hold, it is extremely rare that you will cow an entire nation of people into obedience by threatening death or starvation.

[Bigjake]

Further proof that threatening people with death does not motivate them to do what you want them to do.

That is the root of this conflict-withholding fuel or dropping bombs is not going to solve it, because contrary to the ideological commitments to violence that some people hold, it is extremely rare that you will cow an entire nation of people into obedience by threatening death or starvation.

Which is why the Izzies keep talking peace with them?  Or are you reffering to the precision air strikes against KNOWN TERRORIST POSITIONS ( you know, the kind that kill civilians at random??)

wrong again.  ;

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Further proof that threatening people with death does not motivate them to do what you want them to do.

And what, pray tell, has ever motivated the Palestinians to leave the Israelis alone? 

The Israelis have tried talking with them, negotiating with them, bribing them, appeasing them, cooperating with them, acquiescing to them, signing cease fires with them, and on and on.  None of it has prevented Palestinians from trying to kill Israelis at every turn. None.

The only semi-effective solution the Israelis have found is to try to try to wall off "Palestine" with fences and soldiers and checkpoints.  Even that doesn't work especially well.  Palestinian/terrorist groups have easy access to artillery and rockets and no qualms about using them.

[De Selby]

I don't think your summary of the Israeli treatment of Palestinians is even near accurate. 

But anyway, what they have not tried definitely is saying "We recognize your right to remain in your homes as equals to everyone else who lives around you."

And of course they can't-because that would mean no Jewish state, since half the voting population would not be Jewish.

That's another thing that never seems to work out-you can't say "well, you live here, but you can't have rights x y and z because you're not of the race that this state was founded to protect."  That never goes over well with people who live there.

A real movement towards liberty for Israelis, away from the Leninist policies of past Israelis governments, is probably the best thing that could happen right now...it might inspire the Palestinians to work for the same on their own terms.

[MicroBalrog]

How is this representative of all Palestinians? The guys in the West Bank are being nice and quiet in the meanwhile.


BTW, the Army Spokesman said that, fuel supplies to Gaza will NOT be cut except temporarily, while the army re-evaluates security measures at the fuel depot in question. That might take a few days, but no long-term measures will be taken.


And Shootinstudent, I think you misunderstand.

Palestinians =/= Israeli-Arabs.

Palestinians vote and so forth in their own elections and elect their own leadership (except in Gaza - blame Hamas for thaT).

Israeli-Arabs are, of course, sometimes discriminated against, but they vote and serve in the government, and they are citizens of the country just like the Jewish majority.

[Manedwolf]

BTW, the Army Spokesman said that, fuel supplies to Gaza will NOT be cut except temporarily, while the army re-evaluates security measures at the fuel depot in question.

Hopefully that takes a few years to evaluate before they re-open it, and then gets delayed again, ad infinitum. 

Or hopefully, they can't find any more drivers willing to risk their lives.

[MicroBalrog]

Maned, we all know that Europe and America won't let us to just starve the Palis out.

But I'm all for no peace - no gas for a few days.

[Manedwolf]

Maned, we all know that Europe and America won't let us to just starve the Palis out.

But I'm all for no peace - no gas for a few days.

Europe wouldn't (It might make the radicals there mad, and they'd hurt them! Or burn cars!), but a hell of a lot of America, sick of the "Palestinian" terrorism and who stand with Israel as an ally, sure would.

[MicroBalrog]

Maned, we need the European trade.

They're the export market for our agricultural produce, and they provide us with tourists.

We also need their weapons and diplomatic support.

Besides, nobody here relishes in the idea of starving the Arabs. Except the crazy settler people.

[Manedwolf]

So just cut them off and let Egypt deal with them? Let them supply them with oil. They'll get sick of them when their terrorists start blowing stuff up in Egypt, too.

They're on the WATER. They could have a port with an oil terminal if they'd quit blowing up their own stuff, but they won't, so no foreign investment will touch the place.

They're doing it to themselves. If they spent half the time building things that they do building and launching rockets from the roofs of occupied buildings, they wouldn't be living in such squalor. Why should anyone help them?

As it is now, it's like delivering welfare payments to someone who not only won't work, but tries to shoot you when you come to give them their handout.

[MicroBalrog]

Manedwolf, Hamas is working on a plan which will make them dependent on Egypt for oil and power. And building a second power plant.

90% of Hamas budget is actually developing infrastructure, schools (which they use for propaganda), hospitals, etc. in Palestine.

[Manedwolf]

Where do they get the money?

[MicroBalrog]

Where do they get the money?

Three sources:

Donations, drugs, and serving as a de-facto government in Gaza.

[Brad Johnson]

Hey, remember the riots in Cali during the OJ trial where people were burning down their own neighborhood?

Brad

[Bogie]

Personally, I'd cut off fuel. And if they did something nasty with a food shipment, I'd cut off food. And I'd print up a million or so leaflets detailing just WHO is the reason why, fly 'em over, and kick 'em out the door.

[Dntsycnt]

Yes, because starving and isolating NEVER breeds radicalization. 

Whose the average Joe going to believe, the people who have been building their schools and hospitals, or the floating leaflets that came from the planes that last week were dropping bombs?

Starving would only breed hatred and radicalization.

[Manedwolf]

Yes, because starving and isolating NEVER breeds radicalization. 

Whose the average Joe going to believe, the people who have been building their schools and hospitals, or the floating leaflets that came from the planes that last week were dropping bombs?

Starving would only breed hatred and radicalization.

Or the people who built a Quassam launcher on top of the school they built, and used it to lob rockets at Israel until a missile came back and destroyed it, so they could claim that Israel destroyed the school.

[Nitrogen]

Perhaps if they don't want to be starved and isolated, they should stop shooting at people trying to bring them food, fuel, and medical attention.

[Brad Johnson]

Perhaps if they don't want to be starved and isolated, they should stop shooting at people trying to bring them food, fuel, and medical attention.

This is a religious/cultural thing, remember?  Doing something that makes sense is irrelevant.

Brad

[MechAg94]

Yes, because starving and isolating NEVER breeds radicalization. 

Whose the average Joe going to believe, the people who have been building their schools and hospitals, or the floating leaflets that came from the planes that last week were dropping bombs?

Starving would only breed hatred and radicalization.

And that would change things how? 

[RoadKingLarry]

Further proof that threatening people with death does not motivate them to do what you want them to do.

That is the root of this conflict-withholding fuel or dropping bombs is not going to solve it, because contrary to the ideological commitments to violence that some people hold, it is extremely rare that you will cow an entire nation of people into obedience by threatening death or starvation.

Much more effective to for suicide bombers to blow up school busses full of children and cafes full of tourists.

[Dntsycnt]

Perhaps if they don't want to be starved and isolated, they should stop shooting at people trying to bring them food, fuel, and medical attention.

You're basing that on the blind assumption that the vocal/violent extremists represent the attitudes of the common people, which is false.  The vast majority abhor violence toward civilians.