Palis bite, or rather, shoot the hand that feeds them.

[Manedwolf]

Perhaps if they don't want to be starved and isolated, they should stop shooting at people trying to bring them food, fuel, and medical attention.

You're basing that on the blind assumption that the vocal/violent extremists represent the attitudes of the common people, which is false.  The vast majority abhor violence toward civilians. 

Would that be the ones launching the rockets from the roofs of occupied schools and apartment buildings, the ones carrying rockets to them, the ones building the rockets, the ones in the streets firing AKs in the air when a rocket hits something, or the ones just living under the rocket launchers?

[taurusowner]

Or simply the ones that look the other way when they see a group of men setting up a rocket launcher.  They're still guilty.

[roo_ster]

Perhaps if they don't want to be starved and isolated, they should stop shooting at people trying to bring them food, fuel, and medical attention.

You're basing that on the blind assumption that the vocal/violent extremists represent the attitudes of the common people, which is false.  The vast majority abhor violence toward civilians. 

The blind assumptions are all yours.  Statistically sound polling techniques provide data pertinent to this topic.  The first poll I heard about a few years ago had 65%* of the Palis in favor of blowing up grandmas on the city bus.

Then, there was the election which had the Palis electing Hamas to a majority in the Pali gov't. 

But don't let facts get in the way of your kumbaya-ism.  Because if you did, you could google up several polls indicating similar data showing the majority of Palis are bloodthirsty savages.

The Palis earned their bad reputation the old-fashioned way and deserve nothing better than the back of our hand.



* I can't recall if the +/- was nearer 3% or nearer 5%.  No matter, really, as 65% is a pretty convincing and damning proportion.  No need to do a recount & search for dangling chads.

[Bigjake]

You're basing that on the blind assumption that the vocal/violent extremists represent the attitudes of the common people, which is false.  The vast majority abhor violence toward civilians. 

Are those the same folks that were dancing in the streets on a certain September morning a few years ago??

[De Selby]

How is this representative of all Palestinians? The guys in the West Bank are being nice and quiet in the meanwhile.


BTW, the Army Spokesman said that, fuel supplies to Gaza will NOT be cut except temporarily, while the army re-evaluates security measures at the fuel depot in question. That might take a few days, but no long-term measures will be taken.


And Shootinstudent, I think you misunderstand.

Palestinians =/= Israeli-Arabs.

Palestinians vote and so forth in their own elections and elect their own leadership (except in Gaza - blame Hamas for thaT).

Israeli-Arabs are, of course, sometimes discriminated against, but they vote and serve in the government, and they are citizens of the country just like the Jewish majority.

Yes, I understand the distinction as it stands-I was pointing out that the deal offered to the under 20 percent of Israel that is arabs was made possible by their small population figures.

It would not have mattered if no Palestinian in the West Bank or Gaza had ever lifted a finger against an Israeli after the 1967 war and if they all begged for citizenship-no Israeli government would ever have granted that.  Yet the Israeli government claims that very piece of land, with all the Palestinians on it, as rightfully the territory of Israel.  That is always going to be a problem-you can't claim sovereignty over a land with people your country will never recognize as citizens.

[Dntsycnt]

Perhaps if they don't want to be starved and isolated, they should stop shooting at people trying to bring them food, fuel, and medical attention.

You're basing that on the blind assumption that the vocal/violent extremists represent the attitudes of the common people, which is false.  The vast majority abhor violence toward civilians. 

The blind assumptions are all yours.  Statistically sound polling techniques provide data pertinent to this topic.  The first poll I heard about a few years ago had 65%* of the Palis in favor of blowing up grandmas on the city bus.

Then, there was the election which had the Palis electing Hamas to a majority in the Pali gov't. 

But don't let facts get in the way of your kumbaya-ism.  Because if you did, you could google up several polls indicating similar data showing the majority of Palis are bloodthirsty savages.

The Palis earned their bad reputation the old-fashioned way and deserve nothing better than the back of our hand.



* I can't recall if the +/- was nearer 3% or nearer 5%.  No matter, really, as 65% is a pretty convincing and damning proportion.  No need to do a recount & search for dangling chads.

Sorry, Jfruser, but you are wrong.  Statistically sound polling techniques show quite the opposite.  Check out the book Who Speaks For Islam? published by the Gallup press.  It contains the data from one of the biggest, most thorough world polls ever done, and I can assure you that it is this information that I based my statement from, not any kind of "kumbaya-ism".

[Nitrogen]

Perhaps if they don't want to be starved and isolated, they should stop shooting at people trying to bring them food, fuel, and medical attention.

You're basing that on the blind assumption that the vocal/violent extremists represent the attitudes of the common people, which is false.  The vast majority abhor violence toward civilians. 

Really?  Then why do terrorists get elected to office in the Palestinian territories?

[HankB]

Perhaps if they don't want to be starved and isolated, they should stop shooting at people trying to bring them food, fuel, and medical attention.

You're basing that on the blind assumption that the vocal/violent extremists represent the attitudes of the common people, which is false.  The vast majority abhor violence toward civilians. 

Really?  Then why do terrorists get elected to office in the Palestinian territories?

Actual elections don't count as indicators of the Pali's attitudes towards terrorism - certainly not as much as books or scholarly papers written by islamofascist apologists. I'm sure there's a way to explain away the Hamas electoral victories, and if the explanations are utter bovine excrement, well, that's just because you're a bigot.

As for who's land it historically belongs to . . . who built the Temple Mount, Jews or Moslems?

[Manedwolf]

Sorry, Jfruser, but you are wrong.  Statistically sound polling techniques show quite the opposite.  Check out the book Who Speaks For Islam? published by the Gallup press.  It contains the data from one of the biggest, most thorough world polls ever done, and I can assure you that it is this information that I based my statement from, not any kind of "kumbaya-ism".

The issue is mostly the noise made when any slight towards Islam is perceived, contrasted with the deafening silence from the majority whenever a terrorist act occurs in the name of Islam.

Where's the mobs in the streets yelling "not in our name!"...?

*crickets*

[Dntsycnt]

You guys are right, they're all pure evil.

Thank god we have smart people like you who can see past the pesky numbers and facts and just kill them all for us.

We'll just fight 'em till their gone!

[roo_ster]

Dntsycnt:

A google on the terms:
palestinians poll suicide bomb
brings to light quite a bit of data for your perusal.

This data is not just some outlier.  It is repeated and repeatable over time by different organizations.  For the social/soft/fuzzy sciences, this is about as conclusive as it gets outside of stone tablets writ on by the finger of God.


FORMAT:
yyyy-mm
polling_org
link_to_article_/_data
Excerpt of the data


2001-12
pcpsr.org
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2001/p3a.html
An overwhelming majority, ranging between 81%-87%, does NOT view the following Palestinian violent acts as acts of terrorism: the assassination of the Israeli Minister Ze'evi by armed PFLP men, the shooting at Gilo in Jerusalem by armed Palestinians, the killing of 21 Israeli youths at the Dolphinarium club in Tel Aviv by a Palestinian suicide bomber, and the killing of 3 Israelis in Nahari in Israel at the hands of an Israeli Arab suicide bomber.

2001-12
http://home.birzeit.edu/cds/opinionpolls/
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-stillman040802.asp
When surveyed in December 2001, 81.8 percent of the Palestinian respondents supported or strongly supported armed attacks against Israeli targets, and 92.3 percent supported or strongly supported armed attacks against Israeli soldiers in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. In the same poll, 82.3 percent disagreed or strongly disagreed with defining the suicide bombing at the Dolphinarium discotheque that murdered 23 mostly teenage Israelis (and wounded 100 more) as a terrorist attack. 69.4 percent of the respondents questioned would not consider the use of chemical or biological weapons against Israel an act of terror. Thus, a significant number of Palestinians not only favors violent attacks on Israelis, but would support the use of weapons of mass destruction against Israeli civilians.

2002-08
time.com
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020415-227546,00.html
In June a poll taken in the Gaza Strip found that 78% of the population approved of suicide bombings, considerably more than supported peace talks (60%).

2006-02
jmcc.org
http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no57.pdf
When asked about their feelings towards suicide bombing operations against Israeli
civilians, a ratio of (56.2%) still either strongly support or somewhat support such operations
compared with (49.7%) in May 2005 and (75.6%) in April 2003. however, there has been a
steady rise in ratio of those who oppose such operations from (29.3%) in April 2003 to
(38.0%) in May 2005 and to (40.7%) this month.

2007-07
pewglobal.org
http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/257.pdf
Palestinians stand out for their broad acceptance of suicide bombing. Seven-inten-
Palestinians say this tactic is at least sometimes justified.

2008-03
pcpsr.org
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/18/mideast/18mideast.php
According to the poll, conducted last week with 1,270 Palestinians in face-to-face interviews, 84 percent supported the March 6 attack on the Mercaz Harav yeshiva, one of Israels most prominent centers of religious Zionism and ideological wellspring of the settler movement in the West Bank. Shikaki said that this is the single highest support for an act of violence in his 15 years of polling here.

(various)
(various)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/poterror.html
[Note:  Quite a bit at this website from lots of polling orgs, kind of a one-stop-shop.]
Do you support or oppose launching rockets from the Gaza Strip against Israeli towns and cities such as Sderot and Ashkelon? (Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, March 13-15, 2008)
Support    
64%
Oppose    
33%
--
Do you support or oppose the bombing attack that took place in a religious school in West Jerusalem? (Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, March 13-15, 2008)
Support    
84%
Oppose    
13%
--
How do you feel towards suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians? Do you support them, or oppose them? (Jerusalem Media & Communications Center, February 2006)

Code:

                                             Total          West Bank         Gaza
                                            N= 1200         N= 760          N= 440
                Strongly support              22.4            19.7             27
                Somewhat support              33.8            31.4             38
                Somewhat oppose               24.3            24.7            23.4
                Strongly oppose               16.4            20.4            9.5
                No answer                     3.1             3.8             2.1

--
 A suicide bombing took place on 01.11.2004 at Tel Aviv's central market. Are you with or against such attacks? (Palestinian Center for Public Opinion, November 4 - 8, 2004)
with    
54.5%
Against    
33.1%
Don't know    
12.4%
--
Do you consider Palestinian bombings of Israeli buses and restaurants to be acts of terrorism? (PORI, September 2003)

Code:

                                                                                                                   Israeli Jews    Israeli Arabs   Palestinians
                                                                                                    Yes               99%             57%             10%
                                                                                                    No                 1%             31%             79%
                                                                                                    Don't Know         --             12%             11%

--

(various)
(various)
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/isrl-pa/ISRAELPA1002-03.htm#P316_44017
[Note:  This Human Rights Watch article draws data from numerous sources.  Funfunfun with footnotes.]
With the collapse of the Camp David talks in July 2000, support for militant actions increased.9 A year later, and nine months into the current clashes, Palestinian researchers found that 92 percent of Palestinians supported armed confrontations against Israeli troops and 58 percent supported attacks against civilians inside Israel.

[Nitrogen]

jfruser, you must have gotten ALL that data from zionist Jewish fringe sites.  Yeah, human rights watch, Time Magazine,  PEW Research, etc... All Jewish fringe sites!

[Perd Hapley]

As for who's land it historically belongs to . . . who built the Temple Mount, Jews or Moslems?

Who built Jericho?  Or Jerusalem?  Or Sodom?  Gomorrah?  It wasn't the Jews. 

Look, populations move around, get forcibly relocated, and get replaced by other groups.  The Jew's ancient ties to the land are about as relevant as Mexican claims to California.  In other words, not. 

[Scout26]

Who was it that said "The Palistinians never pass up an opportunity to pass up an opportunity."  ??

[roo_ster]

BTW, the most precious data point I thought the following:

69.4 percent of the respondents questioned would not consider the use of chemical or biological weapons against Israel an act of terror. Thus, a significant number of Palestinians not only favors violent attacks on Israelis, but would support the use of weapons of mass destruction against Israeli civilians.

Next time someone tells you, "They're not crazy enough to use WMDs, because they'd kill Palestinians, too!" remember the above and know that the speaker/writer is either ignorant or lying.

[Dntsycnt]

So are you suggesting Gallup is in the terrorists' pockets?

I mean...it's not like it was a reputable independent company which keeps all their methods, calculations and findings to the public, right?

Perhaps it is that most of those polls were limited to the Palestinians/gaza strip, etc., whereas the Gallup poll covered all the middle eastern countries, and was more geared toward violence toward the west in general than just the Isrealis (who of course are blameless and perfect and never do anything to incite hatred toward themselves.)

[Bigjake]

So are you suggesting Gallup is in the terrorists' pockets?

I mean...it's not like it was a reputable independent company which keeps all their methods, calculations and findings to the public, right?

Perhaps it is that most of those polls were limited to the Palestinians/gaza strip, etc., whereas the Gallup poll covered all the middle eastern countries, and was more geared toward violence toward the west in general than just the Isrealis (who of course are blameless and perfect and never do anything to incite hatred toward themselves.)

You're right!  Serves those rotten zionist bastards right for using precision air strikes against KNOWN bad guys!  Next time, We'll carpet bomb them right back to the 7th century (redundancy alert) ala Dresden circa 1944.

[Dntsycnt]

Why assume a radical viewpoint?  That's not what I said at all.  Israel isn't an evil empire, just as the Palestinians aren't a bunch of evil animals.  I'm simply calling attention to the fact that the matter is not nearly as simple as people like to treat it.

[roo_ster]

So are you suggesting Gallup is in the terrorists' pockets?

I mean...it's not like it was a reputable independent company which keeps all their methods, calculations and findings to the public, right?

Perhaps it is that most of those polls were limited to the Palestinians/gaza strip, etc., whereas the Gallup poll covered all the middle eastern countries, and was more geared toward violence toward the west in general than just the Isrealis (who of course are blameless and perfect and never do anything to incite hatred toward themselves.)

No one is suggesting Gallup is a jihadi front org.  Keep the tinfoil in the cupboard. 

You might want to look at the OP & thread title for context.

Even assuming that the subject (of your book you cite) was the Palis, it would be one poll / data point versus many polls over time  by different orgs that showed roughly the same results.  What are the odds that your reference is the outlier versus the many other polls by other organizations?

Hokay, why are you asking me or speculating on just who the subject of the book you cited was?  Break the sucker open, read it, and get back to us, if you want your posts to have any weight.

[Dntsycnt]

The book is currently at my father's residence, but it covers just about the whole of the world with emphasis on the U.S. and the Middle East, using specific examples from various nations, none of which do I remember to specifically address the Palestinians.  However, the study was one of the largest ever done and spanned the course of several years so that it could show chronological as well as geographical trends, and leads me to doubt the results being outliers, as they were repeatedly tested and shown to be consistent.

One of the great trends it revealed is the prevalence throughout the Muslim world of a core concern about the Palestinian conflict and how the West deals with it.  It is precisely the view greatly prevalent in the West of the Palestinians and Middles Eastern peoples in general as ignorant, violent animals that feeds hatred and disfavor toward the west.  Another thing these studies showed is that the top things middle eastern people list as what they like about the west is freedom of speech and democracy.  The things they list highest in what they despise about thier own societies are extremism and violence.  I think it is crucial for us to comprehend that these people are our allies in the fight against extremists/theocracy/terrorism, and that dealing with them as anything but only feeds the problem.  Islam is not the problem.  To say it is the problem gives credence to the terrorists and insults the people who are otherwise our allies.  Islam is nonsensical just as Christianity is but to attack it or the people who practice it only exacerbates the problem, and further ensures greater violence.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Dnt.  I don't think anyone here is saying "Attack people just because they're Muslim."

Instead, we are saying, "Attack those that attack us in the name of Islam.  And the rest of you, who believe in Islam, do something to distance yourselves from those that claim Islam as their justification to attack us."  By that, I'm not saying they should no longer profess Islam, but rather, they should disclaim those that use Islam as their justification for violence as not being a part of Islam.

[Perd Hapley]

Islam is nonsensical just as Christianity is...

OK, Tecumseh, whatever.     Ya know, you don't have to live in ignorance.  I'm sure they have some books on Christianity down at your local lending library.  Happy reading. 

[Dntsycnt]

Fistful, no need to call me ignorant just because i don't agree with your religion.  I was a Christian for many, many years; I understand the doctrine.  I was just clarifying my position. 

I don't care if you're Christian, or Muslim, or Atheist, or Unicornist, I'm not going to call you ignorant just because of your conclusion concerning the existence of certain supernatural beings.  To do so is childish and nonconstructive.

If I were so shallow and emotional as to be personally offended I would demand an apology, but as it is I will just note the instance with a heavy sigh.

[Perd Hapley]

Sigh.  "Fistful, no need to call me ignorant just because i don't agree with your religion."  I never said that.

But to call Christianity "nonsensical" is to betray ignorance somewhere along the line.  Either you don't know what "nonsensical" means, or you don't know what Christianity actually teaches, or you're poorly informed about some other matters. 

And please don't tell me about your Christian past.  I'm tired of the "I am/was a Christian, so I can say stupid things" excuse.  I've seen plenty of ignorant Christians, anyway. 

[Dntsycnt]

Ahhhh so if I knew the Great and True Nature of Christianity and The Universe, I wouldn't be doubting, right?

You say Christianity isn't nonsensical because you are a Believer.  Thus the conversation can't go any further.