Author Topic: Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?  (Read 3560 times)

Ron

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« on: July 13, 2005, 07:36:20 PM »
Interesting article by libertarian John Stossel




Who's really open?
John Stossel

July 13, 2005

Where I work (in network TV) and live (on the Upper West Side of Manhattan), people say "conservative" the way they say "child molester." It's the worst thing to be called. Everyone here agrees: Conservatives are repressive, while liberals are open-minded and think it's important to hear a diverse range of voices.

 Except, of course, if those voices aren't liberal.

 Ironically, in the 19th century, liberals really did want to hear new ideas. In 1869, it was a liberal who wrote, "the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race . . . those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error." John Stuart Mill argued that debating people you disagree with was the only way to develop wisdom.
   
 Compare today's so-called liberals.

 I recently finished a tour for my book, "Give Me a Break." Weirdly, the same month "Give Me a Break" came out, my publisher released a book by my wife's ex-boyfriend.

 His book was not political, but he is well-liked in the liberal media world. After our books came out, I turned on the radio, and the first thing I heard was Imus gushing about how wonderful my wife's ex-boyfriend was.  Even my wife rolled her eyes. My publisher couldn't get me on Imus.

 My wife's ex became a regular on NPR and got on national shows, like "Fresh Air." He was on CNN with Larry King and Paula Zahn, and on PBS with Charlie Rose. He got four columns in the New York Times; my book was never mentioned.

 I shouldn't complain. I have plenty of airtime of my own, and the conservatives were eager to talk. I got to discuss my ideas with dozens of talk radio hosts, and on Fox News Channel, where Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity have audiences CNN only dreams about. More people bought my book than my wife's ex's.

 But where was the "open debate" the liberals like to praise? Mostly on the conservative broadcasts.

 Conservative hosts had me on their programs even though some loathed my hard-core libertarian ideas. Maybe it's because conservatives in media are used to people disagreeing with them. In fact, if they live in New York City, they are used to liberals shrieking at them. Few conservatives wanted to spend much time debating drug prohibition (Sean Hannity was a rare exception), but at least they heard me out.

 I had thought liberal shows would have me on their programs to trash my arguments. I looked forward to a spirited debate.  But debate rarely happened. Nearly every media invitation came from people who already shared my belief in the free market. Those who didn't, didn't want to talk about it.

 There were a few exceptions: Robert Redford, of all people, flew me out to his Sundance Book festival. Alan Colmes grilled me on his radio program. Larry King eventually had me on; it was only his weekend show, but he said he have me back on a weekday. I'm still waiting.

 I thought I'd have a shot at a fair debate with Al Franken because we're acquaintances; our kids went to school together. No such luck. He invited me to his studio, but he barely let me make an argument; instead he ranted about a "lie" on page 305.

 I did have had a wonderful time on Air America's "Morning Sedition," with a host who was furious that government doesn't stop Americans from eating too many Big Macs.  I treasure the moment of silence that followed my saying that government that's big enough to tell you what to eat . . . is government big enough to tell you with whom you can have sex.

 That's the debate the media's supposed to advance.

 I didn't find much of it in the "open-minded" liberal media.

©2005 John Stossel


Link to article       http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/js20050713.shtml

RevDisk

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2005, 10:08:27 PM »
The answer is of course obvious.  "They" are closed minded, unintelligent and wrong on every issue.   "They" being whomever is not "us".

Us vs them is built into humanity at a fundimental level.   Reality is much different than what we'd prefer it to be.  It's so much better to hate an enemy, regardless of circumstances.


I bet I could switch "liberal" and "conservative", post it on a liberal board, and I'd be willing to bet serious money the arguments would be nearly identical.  Just different names.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

thevoicessaid

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2005, 12:10:14 AM »
Agree with RevDisk. Not to mention the fact that Mr. Stossel is already an enlisted partisan in the "wars". His complaint rings a bit hollow when you consider the number of outlets he had available to him far outnumber those that were not.

Seems he just wanted them all. If you were out there selling a book you'd want them all too.

Strings

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2005, 07:06:07 AM »
seems to me that both kinda have the market cornered on close-mindedness. Neither side can admit that the other MIGHT have a good idea or two, and spend an inordinant amount of time preaching to their respective choir...

 In the forums I frequent (here, THR, TFL, Timerift), the rules are simple: be polite. Advance any belief that you wish, be prepared to have it shot down in discussion, but everyone WILL be polite. We need more people on all sides with that attitude...

garrettwc

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2005, 07:22:57 AM »
+1 Hunter Rose

SalukiFan

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2005, 07:30:35 AM »
Quote from: John Stossel
John Stuart Mill argued that debating people you disagree with was the only way to develop wisdom.
I'm a big fan of what I've read from John Stuart Mill.  I agree that debate is an excellent way to develop wisdom.  I feel like I've learned a lot from debates like those that take place on APS and THR, especially when I don't agree with everyone.  

Right on.  Who wants to tangle? Wink

Standing Wolf

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2005, 03:03:32 PM »
Quote
...government that's big enough to tell you what to eat . . . is government big enough to tell you with whom you can have sex.
It's a short step from can to must.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

grampster

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2005, 04:51:57 PM »
Swmbo always tells me that those that disagree with my opinions believe they are as right about their opinions as I believe that I am about mine.  I alway sigh and tell tell her that there is a big difference though; really there is.  I am right and they are wrong.  It certainly can't be any clearer than that. Tongue
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Ron

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2005, 06:29:40 PM »
The point is he wanted to engage the  "other" side and they weren't interested.

I would much rather see Stossel debate a progressive than see liberals/progressives go up against a Hannity or O'Reilly.

Quote
The answer is of course obvious.  "They" are closed minded, unintelligent and wrong on every issue.   "They" being whomever is not "us".

Us vs them is built into humanity at a fundimental level.   Reality is much different than what we'd prefer it to be.  It's so much better to hate an enemy, regardless of circumstances.
Rev,  we always seem to end up on differant sides of issues and we don't hate each other.  I enjoy the debates because they challenge me and show weaknesses in my belief/philosophy.

  I think he was bemoaning the fact that the issues aren't debated fairly in venues where liberals hang out.  The conservative media outlets thrive on the confrontational one on one debates.  I think J Stossel would be easier on the ears than the two guys I mentioned above.

grampster

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2005, 07:24:47 PM »
Go Ron,

+1
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

nico

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2005, 09:04:32 PM »
Quote
I think J Stossel would be easier on the ears than the two guys I mentioned above.
I agree.  He'd also be MUCH better in that he wouldn't try to shout down the person he was debating or try to twist the issues/facts to the extent that the others would.

RevDisk

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2005, 09:51:54 PM »
Quote
Rev,  we always seem to end up on differant sides of issues and we don't hate each other.  I enjoy the debates because they challenge me and show weaknesses in my belief/philosophy.
We don't?  Doh!  Uhm.  Say.  It's a good day to walk.  Err... and I hear the manufacturers of brake cords announced a recall, definitely want to check that out.  Wink

(Kidding!)


Quote
I think he was bemoaning the fact that the issues aren't debated fairly in venues where liberals hang out.  The conservative media outlets thrive on the confrontational one on one debates.  I think J Stossel would be easier on the ears than the two guys I mentioned above.
Setting up a truely neutral venue is near impossible.  The treatment Jim March received on Crossballs is about what a liberal could expect for appearing on Rush Limbaugh's shop.  A mockery of any 'fair' debate.



Quote
Swmbo always tells me that those that disagree with my opinions believe they are as right about their opinions as I believe that I am about mine.  I alway sigh and tell tell her that there is a big difference though; really there is.  I am right and they are wrong.  It certainly can't be any clearer than that.
BWAHAHAHA.   That's great, grampster.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

jefnvk

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2005, 09:28:36 AM »
Those that don't bind themselves to one side, and don't pretend tat their way is the end all solution to all problems.
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

thorn

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2005, 05:09:55 PM »
Quote from: jefnvk
Those that don't bind themselves to one side, and don't pretend tat their way is the end all solution to all problems.
yes! i was talking with another guy i thought was "liberal" the other day,  a political activist guy.
when i said "liberal" = hehehe- we both ended up fast realizing netiher of us was truly liberal or conservative.

you can't have an open mind and stick to one or the other, there are too many issues.

BUT= honestly i would say this- liberals have certain, let's say "nanny" ideas about gov't they are incredibly closed minded on.

Conservatives really seem to be about religion more than anything else.

i wouldn't really call a strict religous belief a "closed mind".
i would call it a MADE UP mind. a lot of this "closed mind" bs is people not accepting someone has weighed the facts and come to a decision.
like abortion, i would call that a "made up mind" decision - (religous decision, a bit more complicated from my point of view, but still)
gun control- "closed" (nanny law)
gay marraige- again "closed" (nanny law)

i would say - HA= ok liberals- willing to debate, but using ridiculous arguments (the BG will use the gun on me!)
conservatives- unwilling to budge, period.

so -=  liberals give the APPEARANCE of being more open minded. tricky!!!

Monkeyleg

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2005, 08:03:26 PM »
The question begs another question: what is "open-minded?"

Liberal versus conservative tags simply don't apply.

Social conservatives will look at issues such as gay marriage and say that marriage is an institution established hundreds or thousands of years ago, and should remain intact. Conservatives such as me, though, recognize the need for social contracts for those whose partners fall outside the realm of traditional marriage interpretations. Common-law marriages should recognize contracts such as Social Security, inheritance, life insurance policies, etc.

Fiscal conservatives aren't alone in their desire to protect their assets. Many outspoken Hollywood liberals hire attorneys to do their very best to keep their clients' taxes low. Progressive liberals talk about "fair" taxes. I would prefer to talk about minimal taxes for everyone.

The fringe of the Liberal Left supports the idea of free shopping carts and credit-card machines for the homeless in San Francisco. The fringe of the far right opposes any support for anyone who doesn't hold a job. Then there's those of us who think there should be a safety net for those whose lives have hit bottom. Not a handout for goldbricks, but a way to prevent peope from starving to death showing up on the streets. If nothing else, it's a bitch to have to step over them. Wink

Both sides want to lay claim to the original intent of the Constitution and the Founding Fathers. The problem with those disparate views is that the language of both the Constitution and the writings of Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton and others don't leave much wiggle room. Parse the comma's all you want, but there is simply no doubt that the Framers meant for the American People to have the right to bear arms--all arms that the military possesses.

In that context, Liberals are more "open-minded," because they're open to ideas that run contrary to the foundations on which our country was built, and are more open to a "living, breathing" Constitution. Meaning that, at any given time, the Constitution means what they say it means.

Back in the 1950's and 1960's, conservatism was defined by the likes of William F. Buckley and Barry Goldwater. At that time, conservatism as we know it now didn't exist except for very few public figures. In fact, neither Buckley nor Goldwater or others even gave lip service to what the conservative movement is now: an almagum of religious conservatives, "gun nuts," border preservationists, and other groups.

On the opposing side, liberalism in its classic form embraced religious freedom (JFK's Catholicism was a huge issue in Kennedy versus Nixon, 1960), acknowledged the Second Amendment (and the other nine), and--in the North--embraced racial equality.

Interesting that the conservatives have been tagged as the racists in recent years, when it was the Democrats who largely opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

What has happened since the late 1960's is that various groups with very specific intentions--and that includes us "gun nuts," as well as pro-abortion advocates, pro-life advocates, gay rights advocates, opponents of gay rights, fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist atheists, and other groups--have had to go wandering in the Desert to find a home.

Once said home is found, a compact is formed with either the Dem or Repub party, and the volunteers and contributions start flowing in, it's impossible to stop.

Try running a real pro-life candidate in a Democrat primary, or a staunch atheist in a Republican primary. It ain't going to happen.

In other words, if you believe that it is your God-given right to own an M60 without any government intrusion, and that it's the right of you and your spouse to decide whether or not to abort a child, you're pretty much screwed by either party. Pick your #1 priority.

That's just one example, and a flip-side example would prove to be just as true.

We'd all love to see third or even fourth-party candidates get real votes, but without the money it's not going to happen. The two parties control the cash.

Back to the original question, though: my liberal friends are more open-minded, because they'll change their views frequently; I'm more close-minded, because I've tried to base my views on logic, history, and what I was taught was right.

Strings

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2005, 07:18:35 AM »
The trick there, Dick, is that you ARE willing to actually listen to another's arguements, and possibly change your stance if they present a convincing point. Even with your mind made up, you're always willing to accept data, which I would equate with being open-minded. To the close-minded, the phrase "don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up" is the rule...

Sean Smith

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Who is more open minded? Liberals or conservatives?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2005, 11:58:38 AM »
I'd say that you see close-minded folks on both sides.  It is just more hypocritical when self-proclaimed liberals are closed-minded, when part of their stated dogma is open-mindedness, whereas self-proclaimed conservatives tend to not claim to be especially open-minded, and so aren't internally inconsistent when they aren't.

TV news tends to not have debate at all, just two retards yelling their respective scripts at each other.  Actually, that's unfair.  Unlike the mentally handicapped, the vermin on "Crossfire" etc. choose to act that way.