Author Topic: Suitcase Nukes  (Read 2645 times)

bratch

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Suitcase Nukes
« on: July 17, 2005, 05:04:44 PM »
Do these exist or not?

I've heard so many different things.  They exist. They don't. They are actually "trunk" nukes and not suitcase.

Can anyone set the record?

Standing Wolf

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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2005, 05:19:25 PM »
Blackburn, I sincerely hope you're right.
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bratch

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Suitcase Nukes
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2005, 05:28:31 PM »
So a trunk nuke is a more accurate description.  

I haven't decided what I think about there being WMDs here.
This thread was started more for general info on whether they exist as hyped.

Thanks

Azrael256

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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2005, 05:28:54 PM »
Quote
Big, but not so big that you couldn't easily put one in a minivan with an engine hoist
Depends on what yield you want.  There were mini-nukes developed that weighed less than 100 pounds.  Yield maxed out at ~1kt.  I wouldn't try to load something like that in a suitcase, but a good solid hiking pack would carry it.  I wouldn't worry, though.  Maintenance really is a serious pain when it comes to nukes.

bratch

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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2005, 05:43:58 PM »
Link?  I'd like to read it but am unaware of that board.

It dawned on me yoy were probably referring to AR15.com

Harold Tuttle

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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2005, 06:20:45 PM »
Dear Cecil:


I've heard talk about "suitcase" nuclear weapons, which someone could carry around and detonate anywhere. Is this possible? I'm not talking about whether someone could get hold of the proper components or be mad enough to pull it off. Rather, I always thought uranium and plutonium were really heavy and the amount needed for a bomb would be too much for one person to tote around. Gold, for example, is much heavier than most people think, certainly heavier than movies typically suggest, and plutonium has a much greater atomic weight and thus should be even heavier. In the end a suitcase-sized nuclear device in the back of a truck is just as awful as a totable one, but the image put forth in the media seems highly inaccurate to me. --Jonathan, via e-mail


Cecil replies:


As so often, we need to define our terms. If you're asking whether it's possible to make a practical nuclear bomb small and light enough to carry around one-handed in a Teletubbies lunch box, the answer is probably not. However, if we expand the menu of mininuke delivery systems to include, say, a bowling-ball bag or, better yet, a garden-variety wheeled suitcase, I wouldn't rule anything out. And if we conjure up what in my opinion is an entirely plausible scenario with a guy in a parking meter service uniform pulling an ashcan-sized two-wheeled coin vault through busy downtown streets at rush hour--well, I'll make the usual disclaimer about the proper components not being easy to come by, etc. Strictly from the standpoint of design feasibility, though, piece of cake.


While the active ingredients in a nuclear bomb are plenty heavy, they're not in the neutron-star range, as you seem to think. Gold, uranium, and plutonium all weigh around 19 to 20 grams per cubic centimeter (10 to 11 ounces per cubic inch), compared to about 8 g/cc for iron. It doesn't take much fissile material to make a bomb--on the order of 10 kilograms of plutonium, a roughly grapefruit-sized sphere. You'll also want a "shaped charge" of conventional explosives to compress the plutonium to critical mass, plus a few other precisely engineered but not especially bulky items. (A gun-type weapon that smashes two hunks of uranium together to trigger the nuclear blast is simpler to make but requires more material.) One thing you won't need is massive lead shielding to ensure the delivery person lives long enough to reach ground zero--prior to detonation, plutonium and uranium don't emit significant amounts of ionizing radiation, one reason a suitcase nuke wouldn't be easy to detect. What would the thing weigh, all told? Possibly as little as 30 kilograms, or 66 pounds. It'd be a bit unwieldy to slide under the seat as a carry-on, maybe, but still pretty small.


Guesswork, you say. True, but fairly educated guesswork. Our most recent glimpse at the state of the art in portable A-bomb design was furnished by the late Russian general Alexander Lebed, who in 1997 claimed that 100 or so Russian tactical nuclear bombinos couldn't be accounted for. Lebed said each device measured about 60 by 40 by 20 centimeters (24 by 16 by 8 inches, suitcase-sized in my book) and would explode with a force roughly equal to 1,000 tons of TNT--supposedly they were to be deployed by special forces behind enemy lines. Kremlin spokesmen roundly denied all, including the little bombs' existence. The question remains unsettled (and unsettling), but there seems small doubt that suitcase nukes are buildable, since plenty of portable if not exactly Samsonite-sized A-weapons were in fact built during the cold war. One oft-cited example is a U.S. device called the special atomic demolition munition (SADM), reportedly deployed in various configurations during the 1960s. The SADM, or anyway some SADMs, supposedly had a shipping weight of about 160 pounds, which is more like a dishwasher than a suitcase, but when assembled and ready for use may have been in the 50-to-60-pound range. In declassified photos one version looks to be about the size of a small shop vac--and remember, that's 40-year-old technology. Imagine what some nuclear nerd could come up with today.


Not to worry, the experts say: The suitcase nuke threat is exaggerated--if any were actually out there, given the global surplus of fanatics, by now they'd surely have been used. Producing weapons-grade uranium and plutonium is a huge industrial operation requiring skills and equipment not easily concealed; even the craziest terrorist knows there are easier ways to make things go boom. Despite what alarmists would have you believe, you can't just buy ten kilos of P-239 on the Tashkent black market and get a recipe from alt.nukes.made.simple. To which the pessimist, knowing that we're inevitably headed toward a more nuke-dependent world as other energy sources dry up, can only reply: Not yet.


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Preacherman

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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2005, 06:25:11 PM »
There's a lot of information available here:

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/News/TerroristBombIntro.html

Well worth reading, and browsing that entire site, IMHO.
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Justin

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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2005, 08:35:16 PM »
Wikipedia entry on "other" types of nuke delivery systems.

Small, two-man portable tactical weapons (erroneously referred to as suitcase bombs), such as the Special Atomic Demolition Munition, have been developed, although the difficulty of balancing yield and portability limits their military utility.

Like most scary things, "suitcase nukes" seem to be a misnomer perpetratred by the media and various governmental mouth organs.
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RevDisk

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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2005, 03:23:20 AM »
Quote
Do these exist or not?

I've heard so many different things.  They exist. They don't. They are actually "trunk" nukes and not suitcase.

Can anyone set the record?
Erm.  They probably exist, yes.  The Soviets (and the US) designed multiple very small nuclear weapon types.  Nuclear landmines, artillery shells, demolitions, etc.

They're bigger than most people think, much heavier, they have an extremely low yield (equal to a VERY large truckbomb), they leak rads like no tomorrow, they're very maintaince intensive, etc.


Oh yea, and the Soviet ones are not a very large worry.  Any nukes lost during the fall of the Soviet Union are now not functional because of the relatively short life span of nuclear weapons.  I posted the full technical explaination on THR somewhere.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=146852

I also did so on another thread especially on "suitcase nukes", but I forget what it is.  


As a radiological weapon, yea.  They're a possible concern.  As a nuclear weapon, rather unlikely.  It's possible.  But it's many millions of times more likely that you'd die by being hit by lightning.
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Werewolf

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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2005, 05:32:58 AM »
All this talk of the weapons not functioning after 12 or so years comes with a caveat.

Most modern nukes are 2 stage meaning a number of things. Concerning suitcase nukes however it means a standard fission type bomb is boosted using a tritium or deuterium booster stage. The booster stage multiplies the explosive output by two to a theoretical maximum of 6 something or other.

It is the booster stage that essentially become useless after time goes by. IIRC the half life is about 2.3 years or so. After 5 half lives the stuff is all but gone. I expect that after just 2 half lives that the booster stage wouldn't function but I am not positive about that.

Even if the booster stage is totally dead the fission stage will work. Thus you'll still get a nuclear explosion - mushroom cloud and all.

Single stage nukes don't require all that much maintenance and as long as the chemical explosive used to compact the fissile material is viable - well - kaboooooom!
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RevDisk

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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2005, 06:20:02 AM »
Quote from: Werewolf
It is the booster stage that essentially become useless after time goes by. IIRC the half life is about 2.3 years or so. After 5 half lives the stuff is all but gone. I expect that after just 2 half lives that the booster stage wouldn't function but I am not positive about that.
Tritium has a half life of 12.3 years.  The half life is not the issue, per se.  It's helium-3 produced by the decay.  Helium contamination is the biggest problem.


Quote
Single stage nukes don't require all that much maintenance and as long as the chemical explosive used to compact the fissile material is viable - well - kaboooooom!
Erm.  Yea.   They still require maintaince and serving, otherwise the chemical explosives won't go boom the way they should go boom.  The fission material doesn't need all that much work, it's the components that do need regular checking and replacements.
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thorn

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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2005, 03:56:10 PM »
Quote from: Standing Wolf
Blackburn, I sincerely hope you're right.
i know for a fact they suitcase size warhead exists- pops made bombracks to hold em on Tornados  (i think, at least when he was worknig on Tornados was when he told me) for germany.
(ps- every bomb dropped from F series plane, the little thing that let it go- my dad had a hand in, i am proud of that)

at any rate, my dad was excited to tell me about them because he tested HIs rack with a dummy nuke, and he said
the warhead part would fit in a suitcase.

BUT - BIG BUTT!!!==   the suitcase size bomb= weighs 500 pounds!!!

VERY DENSE MATERIAls. so nobody is just carrying one around too easily. in a car, sure.

also= those are the most expensive, and probably most secure, theft is unlikely, home making one that small=

WOW. no not very likely at all.