Post by: luckyorwhat on March 18, 2008, 01:52:54 PM
Question is what is supposed to have happened? The R's opposed a bill by the D's to spy on citizens? Dismissing the extreme claims for the moment, what is supposed to have happened?
Post by: Werewolf on March 18, 2008, 03:56:04 PM
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Other sites are less reserved and saying congress discussed prison camps and stuff for troublemaking citizens.
If that's true - which I very seriously doubt - it's about the only thing that would guarantee the 2nd American Revolution. Which is pretty much what makes it not true. Those folk in the halls of congress aren't going to do anything that would jeopordize the cushy jobs they've got.
Post by: RevDisk on March 18, 2008, 04:19:10 PM
Question is what is supposed to have happened? The R's opposed a bill by the D's to spy on citizens? Dismissing the extreme claims for the moment, what is supposed to have happened?
Repub's OPPOSING a spy-on-US-citizens bill? Well, that's an Orwellian spin on the situation.
The Repubs requested a closed door session because the Dems aren't keen on providing retroactive immunity to the telecommunications firms for illegal acts. In plainer English, certain companies willingly and knowingly directly violated federal law, specifically FISA, by spying on US citizens.
The popular, and entirely 100% blatant lie, is the "24" justification. Jack Baer (or in this case, FBI, NSA, et al) needs to be able to wiretap US citizens right this second to prevent a ticking timebomb. Sounds logical, right? Except FISA allows for requesting a warrant three business days after the tap under life threatening situations. Agent Baer could wiretape the bad guy on Friday, and not have to roll out of bed and trek down to the courthouse until Tuesday. FISA courts have judges with necessary security clearances, who have turned down less than two dozen warrants since FISA was enacted into law. The entire point of FISA is to provide a papertrail so that if someone was doing something blatantly illegally, they could be brought to justice. FISA records are classified and no one has questioned the security measures of the FISA court, so it's not a danger that terrorists could use said records to evade detection. The entire point of bypassing FISA is to keep the records of wiretapping out of the hands of our own legal system.
Now why would they want to do that?
Post by: seeker_two on March 18, 2008, 04:43:53 PM
The entire point of bypassing FISA is to keep the records of wiretapping out of the hands of our own legal system.
Now why would they want to do that?
Now why would they want to do that?
Rev gets it in one.....
Post by: luckyorwhat on March 18, 2008, 05:41:08 PM
.Feels kind of wierd to read about this stuff, like the feeling one'd get watching black and white news footage of certain countries last century.
Post by: LAK on March 18, 2008, 11:29:51 PM
Yes, we know they do not want a run on their banks and other institutions by the plantation slaves. However, in face of what has been (for a great many years) happening to the dollar, unthinkable debt, our committments both at home longterm and overseas, I think they were getting a sort of preliminary headsup that it might soon be time to abandon ship, and deciding for who and in what way it will go.
Even if this was not it, I am sure they either will be having such sessions, or they have already had them. Such a scenario will without doubt be under a declaration of a state of national emergency, all being sworn to silence under the heaviest penalties.
Or could be a crash course in we-must-stop-the-terrorists-in-Iran-and-and-must-attack/invade-now finishing with a quiet declaration of war on Iran.
Or maybe Osama sent them another ("all new!!") message on more grainy super 8 film - by the same hillside, under the same three or four hanging leaves over his left shoulder, wearing the same beard, clothes, etc and having still not aged a bit.
Either way, it will interesting to see what, if any, explanation of this is given.
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Post by: luckyorwhat on March 19, 2008, 02:33:13 AM
Either way it's an extraordinary occurance, and I'll be keeping my eyes open.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 19, 2008, 02:40:18 AM
Hey, maybe they were plotting how to round up all the conspiracy theorists and send them off to Gitmo without anyone noticing! Oooooooo....
Post by: S. Williamson on March 19, 2008, 02:43:29 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on March 19, 2008, 02:44:19 AM
Silly Paulians. Politics are for people with a grasp on reality.
And in the OP..."Even the Ron Paul website people..." Are you kidding? If someone leaves a press conference early because they need to use the can, they have ten-page screaming panics about WHAT THEY REALLY WENT TO GO DO, usually involving secret camps or illuminati or something.
Post by: geronimotwo on March 19, 2008, 04:06:20 AM
"the truth? you can't handle the truth"
Post by: Dntsycnt on March 19, 2008, 04:34:47 AM
I don't like secrecy in government, but I doubt they were planning how best to drown kittens.
Post by: wmenorr67 on March 19, 2008, 04:48:29 AM
Post by: luckyorwhat on March 19, 2008, 04:54:08 AM
That's one messed-up rabbit hole to fall down, because 10 years ago conspiracy theorists would call that crazy. And now it's optimistic.
I don't buy conspiracies either, but when money's involved.
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I don't like secrecy in government
Hopefully that's understatement. If you're not at war with Nazis it's completely messed up. Might be another angle to consider, they could have been briefed of a national security threat.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 19, 2008, 04:57:48 AM
I'd fix that, or the mods will edit it for you.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on March 19, 2008, 07:23:51 AM
Post by: JohnBT on March 19, 2008, 10:28:25 AM
House to Close Its Doors for Spying Bill
House Sets Closed-Door Session to Debate Surveillance Legislation Bush Threatens to Veto
By PAMELA HESS
The Associated Press
WASHINGTON
House doors were locked Thursday night as lawmakers prepared for their first closed session in 25 years to debate surveillance legislation.
Republicans requested privacy for what they termed "an honest debate" on the new Democratic eavesdropping bill that is opposed by the White House and most Republicans in Congress.
Post by: ilbob on March 19, 2008, 10:31:25 AM
Post by: Finch on March 19, 2008, 10:33:57 AM
Post by: luckyorwhat on March 19, 2008, 09:09:40 PM
Post by: RevDisk on March 20, 2008, 02:17:11 AM
The executive branch (and no, I don't just mean Bush. FBI, NSA, et al is included) is basically saying "Yes, we are breaking the law. But we'd like you to ignore that fact, grant us retroactive immunity, legalize the activity and not ask us to provide any paperwork/audits." They admitted to breaking the law, and now they are asking us to trust them... And people think this is a partisan issue? Again, the issue is lack of accountability. With FISA, the government could spy on whoever they wished. Look for yourself. FIVE rejection from 1979 until 2006. Out of 22788 requests, that's a 0.000219 rejection rate. I'll freakin eat my shoe if the feds managed to even fill out the paperwork 99.999781% correctly. I worked for the feds, I'd be flat out shocked if 90% was filled out correctly.
http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/#rept
So the exec branch is upset with a 99.999781% approval process that allows you to file three days after the fact? While screaming partisan politics and begging for immunity? And there's a SINGLE person out there that is still drinking that Koolaid? Nope, no partisan politics. Only lies. This is not even remotely related to the GWOT. This is about the right to spy on US citizens without oversight. Imagine the possibilities of being able to see and record everything that goes over a wire or through the air WITHOUT ANYONE ELSE BEING ABLE TO PROVE IT. Newspaper is going to release an expose? Tap the lines of every reporter, edittor, janitor, everyone until you get the dirt. And they can't scream blackmail because there's no proof of anyone doing any wiretapping. Someone unpopular running for election? Wiretap everyone involved in the campaign until you get the goods. Candiate can scream all they like, but there's no proof of who found it if there is no papertrail. Sound unlikely? Hardly. FISA was specifically enacted into law due to President Nixon doing exactly the above meantioned activities, read up on Watergate. J Edgar Hoover before that.
Post by: LAK on March 20, 2008, 02:24:33 AM
Quote
Politics are for people with a grasp on reality
Politics is a game of deception for snakes - and those who ride their bandwagon. There are several of them running for the WH again - as usual.Reality is just over the horizon.
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Post by: luckyorwhat on March 20, 2008, 10:38:16 AM
I was watching a Claire Wolfe video and in a presentation she suggested that the time she felt the country was gone was when someone she knew in the media became a victim. When an editor or a reporter she knew disappeared or confided intimidation to her, that was when she'd personally admit the page had turned. And it seems reasonable.
Post by: johnster999 on March 20, 2008, 12:07:36 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on March 20, 2008, 12:08:20 PM
I wonder if it's possible the door might have been closed to avoid sensitive intelligence data from being leaked?
Ya THINK?
(Conspiracy theories are more fun, apparently)
Post by: ilbob on March 20, 2008, 12:25:26 PM
I wonder if it's possible the door might have been closed to avoid sensitive intelligence data from being leaked?
if there is any senstive intelligence data being disseminated to 535 members of congress, its a good bet it was compromised within a few hours.
Post by: Finch on March 20, 2008, 12:30:05 PM
I wonder if it's possible the door might have been closed to avoid sensitive intelligence data from being leaked?
if there is any senstive intelligence data being disseminated to 535 members of congress, its a good bet it was compromised within a few hours.WHAT? You mean we can't trust those we elect. I'm stunned.
Post by: seeker_two on March 20, 2008, 03:30:01 PM
I wonder if it's possible the door might have been closed to avoid sensitive intelligence data from being leaked?
Intelligence from CONGRESS?
....
Post by: Tecumseh on March 23, 2008, 07:54:53 PM
Break out the tinfoil hats and chee-tohs, it's gonna be a long night in the basement!
Hey, maybe they were plotting how to round up all the conspiracy theorists and send them off to Gitmo without anyone noticing! Oooooooo....
I got my bible and sidearm. I am ready! Hey, maybe they were plotting how to round up all the conspiracy theorists and send them off to Gitmo without anyone noticing! Oooooooo....