Police drawing blood from DWI suspects.

[xavier fremboe]

It would seem to me that this borders on cruel and unusual...

DALWORTHINGTON GARDENS -- Louis Hodge cooperated with the Dalworthington Gardens officer who pulled him over last August. He stood, walked, and allowed himself to be cuffed on command. But back at the station, there was one request Hodge denied: a blood draw.

"When Mr. Hodge realized that it wasn't going to be a doctor, nurse, chemist, or someone qualified in Texas to give blood, but it was going to be the police officer in this case, the police officer who arrested him. At that point he politely said no," said Mimi Coffey, attorney for Mr. Hodge.

What a police tape doesn't show is now the subject of a lawsuit, filed this week by attorney Mimi Coffey. The officer got a search warrant and took the blood anyway. Coffey contends that, under Texas law, a police officer cannot draw a suspect's blood.

Dalworthington Garden's Police Chief Bill Waybourn disagrees, saying his officers receive medical training as blood technicians. "Going to a nurse or a hospital would have been very difficult, and its a simple, simple, task medically speaking," said Chief Waybourn.

Coffee contends officers still don't have enough training, or experience, to perform the blood draws. It's now up to a Tarrant County District Court Judge to decide who is right.

The decision could have a larger effect. Chief Waybourn tells us he's fielded calls from departments around the state, wanting to start their own officer blood-draw programs.

[Manedwolf]

What police would want to do that, anyway? Blood can have some nasty stuff in it.

[wmenorr67]

Liability could be an issue.

Wonder if he is the first.

[MechAg94]

I gotta ask this.  If the fact that he is drunk is so difficult to detect that blood needs to be drawn, why is he being bothered in the first place? 

[Dannyboy]

What was that sound?  Oh wait, that was the 5th Amendment saying, "good-bye."

[El Tejon]

What a police tape doesn't show is now the subject of a lawsuit,

Got to love those missing video tapes.

Man, I just went round and round the mulberry bush with the state police on this Friday (not turning over videos).

[wmenorr67]

What was that sound?  Oh wait, that was the 5th Amendment saying, "good-bye."

Actually when it comes to DUI the police can get a BAC from numerous means without a warrant.  The guy wasn't declining the blood draw.  He just declined the fact that it wasn't a medical professional.

[Dannyboy]

What was that sound?  Oh wait, that was the 5th Amendment saying, "good-bye."

Actually when it comes to DUI the police can get a BAC from numerous means without a warrant.  The guy wasn't declining the blood draw.  He just declined the fact that it wasn't a medical professional.

Yeah, I know.

 I'm not sure in this case, but San Antonio made it a requirement.  Sure, they still have to get a warrant but do you really think that they'll actually have to work for it?  To actually provide credible evidence?  I think not.  Hell, they were probably already stamped and ready to go, just waiting for a signature.


Blood draw required if breath test refused

Web Posted: 05/21/2008 11:25 PM CDT

Anyone who refuses to submit to a blood-alcohol breath test this weekend will be required to have his or her blood drawn, authorities said Tuesday in reminding residents of a new program scheduled to begin at 5 p.m. Friday.

District Attorney Susan Reed said the No Refusal Accepted' program is scheduled to continue through 7 a.m. Tuesday.

A registered nurse will be on duty both at the San Antonio magistrate's office and the detention center to draw blood from anyone arrested on suspicion of drunken driving who refused at the scene to take a breath test.

Prosecutors will assist with reviewing blood search warrants, Reed said, and local law enforcement agencies will participate in the effort.

[MicroBalrog]

So what's the point of refusing a breath test, now?

[xavier fremboe]

So what's the point of refusing a breath test, now?

Gives you time to kick your liver into overdrive.  I don't think they are allowed to extrapolate what your BAC was at the time of the event.

[MicroBalrog]

Kick your liver into overdrive? How is THAT done, and is that safe?

[MicroBalrog]

P.S. This sounds like a House episode.

[El Tejon]

I don't think they are allowed to extrapolate what your BAC was at the time of the event.

My state's statute allows a 3 hour presumption.

I'll never understand why guys refuse the guiltameter, but volunteer for the stupid human tricks.  The stupid human tricks gets the po-po the pc for the warrant.  Just dummy and mummy up.

[roo_ster]

So sorry, if my blood is to be forcibly drawn by the state, the state needs to pay medical folks to do it, not Officer "I just wrassled a 300lb sweaty naked man with hepatitis 10 minutes before I stopped you."

[xavier fremboe]

I don't think they are allowed to extrapolate what your BAC was at the time of the event.

My state's statute allows a 3 hour presumption.

I'll never understand why guys refuse the guiltameter, but volunteer for the stupid human tricks.  The stupid human tricks gets the po-po the pc for the warrant.  Just dummy and mummy up.

How does that 3 hour thing work? 

[El Tejon]

Cledus Jasper Lee gets pulled over at 1:00AM.  The result for any test performed by 4:00AM is presumed (jury does not have to accept it) to related back to the 1:00AM driving time.

[mfree]

Hrmm. Practicing medicine without a license, is it?

[xavier fremboe]

Cledus Jasper Lee gets pulled over at 1:00AM.  The result for any test performed by 4:00AM is presumed (jury does not have to accept it) to related back to the 1:00AM driving time.

So the 4:00am reading is used as is, or is it presented as "based on the reading at 0400, the reading at 0100 would have been X"?

[El Tejon]

It is presented into evidence as "X" but subject to cross examination and a jury instruction explaining to the jury that while the statute permits this, the final decision is up to them.

[The Annoyed Man]

El T, in Ohio the test results are only admissible without expert testimony (read:exrtrapolation) during the window.  results outside the window can be admitted with expert testimony.

Here in Ohio, back in my prosecuting days, there were several officers who were going through full training in phlebotomy so they could do this.  Departments stopped the process after medical malpractice concerns were brought to light, and the cost of paying a certified officer overtime for the contracted 4 hour minimum outweighed the cost of taking Cletus down to the ER for a blood draw.

[BridgeRunner]

  Departments stopped the process after medical malpractice concerns were brought to light, and the cost of paying a certified officer overtime for the contracted 4 hour minimum outweighed the cost of taking Cletus down to the ER for a blood draw.

Hm, I wonder how the ER feels about that?  A *huge* proportion of people many ER's see are there for non-emergent reasons.  Some of them are there for evidence gathering purposes.  The proto-lawyer in me is all for gathering the evidence no matter what, but common sense dictates that busy emergency rooms should be used for medical emergencies, and almost nothing else.

I spent a lovely evening in the ER recently and was privileged to get a nice view of the goings-on for several hours.  I was astounded at the number of police officers and suspects who seemed to be there for not much reason at all.  Certainly no visual evidence of medical emergencies.  It struck me as a little odd at time.  Maybe they were all there getting blood draws?  Strange.

[MillCreek]

Back when I was a paramedic in training working at Harborview in Seattle, one of my jobs was doing the phlebotomy (blood drawing) on these sort of cases.  It does not require a physician, and most ER's can free up a nurse, paramedic or lab technician to do these.  The most time-consuming part is doing the paperwork for the chain of custody trail.  Generally speaking, when the police bring in the suspects for a draw, they go right back to the lab area, have the draw done, and are on their way within minutes.  If the suspect is a patient in the ED already, because they wrapped the car around a tree or whatever, we are already taking blood for various tests anyway, and one more gray-top or red-top tube doesn't matter.

I was doing such a draw once, and as soon as I inserted the needle, Cletus, who was the size of a small truck, said "ow!', reared back and broke my nose with one swipe of his meaty paw.  He then disappeared under a sea of blue uniforms, ASP batons and MagLites, as the officers who brought him in, took exception to breaking the nose of a paramedic who might have to work on them one day.  After he was pretty much pinioned and bleeding from various lacerations himself, I got a new Vacutainer and did the draw.  I think they bargained away the third-degree assault charge in exchange for pleading on the DUI.  I got to wear a cool metal brace on my nose for a few weeks.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Millcreek, we got a different setup here in Portland.  It's not for every blood draw, but it actually works.

So far I've only seen it done on serious injury accident scenes.  After our ambulances transport the patients, if someone is suspected of DUII, and if they weren't transported, the cops call our dispatch.  The supervisor on duty goes to the scene and does a blood draw on the suspect.  That blood draw is done in the sight of at least two officers, who then immediately take custody of the sample and enter it into evidence.  So instead of tying up the ER staff for the blood draw, we send a paramedic supervisor, who is not on a duty car, to go do it. 

[41magsnub]

think they bargained away the third-degree assault charge in exchange for pleading on the DUI.  I got to wear a cool metal brace on my nose for a few weeks.

So everybody won then?

[Perd Hapley]

.