Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Cliffh on April 29, 2015, 07:26:23 PM
-
I've got a lot of area on our property that's near water. There's a >hundred yard creek that crosses from the back fence to the road out front (then continues on under the road and onto the neighbors property), a large area (~50yd x 20yd) that's flooded (because of the neighbors dam - long story), a mid-sized pond (~75yd x 15yd) and a berm that parallels the roadside drainage ditch.
The vegetation in those areas grows - fast. Faster than I can cut with a string trimmer. Not to mention that a) it takes multiple days to cut those areas & I've got other things to do & b) I've killed 3 trimmers over the last few years trying to keep it all cut down.
From what I've read, one shouldn't use glyphosate near water. I can't find a reason why not, except for one paper that seemed to be biased against the use of glyphosate in any location.
There was something that had me go WTF does that mean???
FISH TOXICITY
96 hour LC50, Rainbow trout – 8.2 μg/L (technical)
96 hour LC50, Bluegill – 5.8 μg/L (technical)
So, in plain English, why should I not use it near water?
-
Simple answer: It doesn't take much to kill lots of fish.
-
Simple answer: It doesn't take much to kill lots of fish.
Plain enough.
Damn.
-
Rodeo.
Glyphosphate fomulated and labeled for use near water.
-
Jeezy Pete, between 6-9 micrograms per liter to kill the fish? Now that is a low lethal concentration.
-
And of course it's twice what I paid for the other stuff. Still cheaper than another weed eater though.
-
I've sprayed the brush and weeds around my pond with glyphosate and have not seen and dead fish. obviously you wouldn't want to spray it into the water but if you're spraying brush/weeds next to the water it shouldn't be much of an issue.
-
Jeezy Pete, between 6-9 micrograms per liter to kill the fish? Now that is a low lethal concentration.
That's probably par for the course with most every other herbicide or insecticide. Fish are not keen on living in contaminated water. I don't think there's a single insecticide I use at work that lets me spray near water including the organics. BT, which we don't use, would be fine though.
-
Why not just let the areas just grow?
-
Weed burner?
-
FISH TOXICITY
96 hour LC50, Rainbow trout – 8.2 μg/L (technical)
96 hour LC50, Bluegill – 5.8 μg/L (technical)
So, in plain English, why should I not use it near water?
So I have a professional pesticide applicators license...
96 hours LC50 means Lethal concentration to kill half the population of the listed fish.
The other is the amount of active ingredient at micrograms per liter. So not every much.
Also roundup/glyphosate is a non selective herbicide, you could end up killing every plant that makes contact with the spray, even the trees.
-
Didn't mean to ignore y'all, work's been a bitch the last week or so.
Burning would work in a few small areas, I've got a propane weed burner I've used for weed control in those areas. Letting it grow isn't an idea we'd be happy with. Some of the vegetation can grow quite tall (10'+) and some of it's poison oak/ivy. It'd choke out the creek, the roadside would be over-run, etc.
I've used glyphosate around the property for over 8 years now, haven't killed anything I didn't want to - yet. I'm pretty careful about proper application. I've actually used it inside the drip-line of a few trees I really don't care about, the trees are still alive after 4 or 5 years.
-
Didn't mean to ignore y'all, work's been a bitch the last week or so.
Burning would work in a few small areas, I've got a propane weed burner I've used for weed control in those areas. Letting it grow isn't an idea we'd be happy with. Some of the vegetation can grow quite tall (10'+) and some of it's poison oak/ivy. It'd choke out the creek, the roadside would be over-run, etc.
I've used glyphosate around the property for over 8 years now, haven't killed anything I didn't want to - yet. I'm pretty careful about proper application. I've actually used it inside the drip-line of a few trees I really don't care about, the trees are still alive after 4 or 5 years.
If you hit the leaves or trunk (on a thin barked tree) you can kill it. The beauty of roundup is if used according to label direction is breakdowns with contact with soil microbes. This is why you aren't killing the trees spraying within the drip line.
-
Yep, which is why I didn't worry about using it there. Just noting that I had, and by being careful to not get it where it shouldn't, didn't kill the trees. "Damn, I'm good".
Personally, I quit using Roundup years ago. I can buy 2.5 gallons of concentrated glyphosate for about the same amount of pre-mix Roundup and it goes a lot farther.
-
Personally, I quit using Roundup years ago. I can buy 2.5 gallons of concentrated glyphosate for about the same amount of pre-mix Roundup and it goes a lot farther.
Yep, Monsanto's patent ran out, so generic Roundup is out there. I live in Ag country, so all glyphosate is referred to as Roundup.
-
Love it when patents expire, "stuff" gets cheaper.
-
Loves me some glyphosphate in concentrate.
To kill a tree with glyphosphate/roundup you gotta really work at it. Sloppy overspray will not do it. Direct spray with pre-mixed from Home Depot will not do it. You gota use a high concentration, surfactant, and it helps to have lots of just exposed/cut live wood.
How much does high concentrate acetic acid cost? It kills pretty good and is not supposed to be persistent.
-
Loves me some glyphosphate in concentrate.
To kill a tree with glyphosphate/roundup you gotta really work at it. Sloppy overspray will not do it. Direct spray with pre-mixed from Home Depot will not do it. You gota use a high concentration, surfactant, and it helps to have lots of just exposed/cut live wood.
How much does high concentrate acetic acid cost? It kills pretty good and is not supposed to be persistent.
Yes, there is label directions for stump/tree killing with glyphosate and it does take sometime to see results since it needs to translocate in all the living tissues.
-
How much does high concentrate acetic acid cost?
A bit more than 4 times the glyphosate concentrate @ ~$87.00/2.5L, I've been paying about $65.00/2.5G for the glyphosate. http://www.grainger.com/product/LABCHEM-Acetic-Acid-5CVU1?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/5CVU3_AS01?$smthumb$
Of course, if it's quicker/better at the job it might be worth the extra cost. There are quite a few trash trees along the fence lines that it'd be nice to get rid of. Cutting them to a stump & digging out the stump is time consuming to say the least.
If there were only some way to get rid of stumps without grinding, digging or waiting months/years for them to rot... I've thought about drilling holes, busting up road flares & burning them. The commercial "stump removers" seem like they'd work, but every one I've looked at seem to simply accelerate the rotting process, with final results still taking months.
-
Two things. Glacial Acetic Acid can be had cheaper then Grainger: https://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=acetic
Second: Don't spray Glacial Acetic Acid. Acetic acid at those concentrations is a whole different animal, and should be treated as such. It's very nasty.
https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9922769
-
Acetic acid appears to be a contact and not systemic herbicide.
http://www.weeds.iastate.edu/weednews/vinegar.htm
While acetic acid may burn off the tops of Canada thistle and other perennials, it will not control the root system responsible for regeneration of plants. Furthermore, acetic acid may not control larger weeds. A recent demonstration at the Nashua Research Farm suggested that acetic acid is not effective at controlling larger weeds.
Directed applications (keeping the vinegar away from the crop plant) are necessary to use acetic acid when crops are present in fields. Acetic acid concentrations from 10 to 20% controlled 80 to 100% of the smaller weeds, as reported in the USDA release. Typical concentrations of acetic acid in most commercially available vinegars are 5%, and were reported to provided variable control of small weeds.
-
Do you really want to kill the grasses too, or just the broadleaf weeds and tree seedlings? You might want to look into 2,4-d (amine formulation, not ester, but the amine is cheaper)
-
Acetic acid appears to be a contact and not systemic herbicide.
IOW, just a more expensive version of the propane weed burner.
-
Do you really want to kill the grasses too, or just the broadleaf weeds and tree seedlings? You might want to look into 2,4-d (amine formulation, not ester, but the amine is cheaper)
2,4-D is really hard to use around broadleaf trees, so volatile.
-
2,4-D is really hard to use around broadleaf trees, so volatile.
I thought he wanted to kill the saplings and brush too.
-
Have you considered a trimmer mower?
-
or a goat ;)
-
I thought he wanted to kill the saplings and brush too.
also kills the trees above (or can kill them)
-
Have you considered a trimmer mower?
http://www.drpower.com/power-equipment/field-brush-mowers/
-
or hire someone with a tractor and brush mower to come in a few times a season to mow/cut it.
-
I've got a trimmer mower, have used it a lot. It's real good on dry ground - not so good in the mud. The skinny tires have a tendency to sink hub deep, it gets hard to move then ;-)
I use some broad leaf weed killers on the lawn areas. The wet areas are a totally different story, I want the marsh grass, duck weed, thorny-vines, poison vines, saplings, everything dead & gone. FWIW I just spent the last 6 hours weed eating just the drainage ditch along the road. That did not include around the pond, along the creek, the flooded areas, etc. And it'll need it again in 3 weeks at most. I want that *expletive deleted*it gone dead!
And I agree completely that spraying acid would be something to think about 3 or 4 times before touching the bottle - and then decide to put the bottle down. Airborne/atomized acid just sounds nasty.
Reminds me of the time I used a chainsaw to cut some century cactus. It's not a hard acid, but the juices are somewhat acidic, and I breathed in a lot of it. The next couple days were unpleasant, to say the least.
ETA emphasis to making it go away.
-
Ah.
Well at this point I'm going to cast my vote. Fire. I vote fire.
-
Ungh fire good
-
So a hippy site that shows up on my fb newsfeed had a recipe of 1g vinegar, 2c Epsom salt and 1/4 dish soap as a "natural" weed killer that purportedly kills things dead fast.
Not sure if it is any better than glyphosate regarding water habitats.
I thought you did the fire after the Roundup killed everything.
-
Ah.
Well at this point I'm going to cast my vote. Fire. I vote fire.
I'm thinking the same thing, I personally would just let it grow according to the description of your property.
-
I don't know how long it'd been let go when we moved in but it was bad. The front yard (~1 acre) was at least 5' tall, 12'+ trees were pulled over by vines until their tops were on the ground, the surveyors couldn't even follow one of the fence lines, the pond was overgrown with duckweed to where the water was almost hidden - it was a mess. (We did get a good price on it 'cause of the condition). I spent most of 5 years making it look better than most city parks, mainly by just keeping it cut back & nature did the rest.
I now have a lot less time to spend on yard work, and I'm 8 years older than when we bought it, so I've got to find more efficient/faster/easier ways of doing things. At least most of it's flat and (usually) dry, so a riding mower works fine there. I'd like to down-size to 2 or 3 acres but that can't happen for a few more years. In the meantime...
Now that I know about the usable-near-water glyphosate and the hazards associated with the don't-use-near-water glyphosate I can determine where to use what.
-
I was joking earlier about getting a goat. But if you have acreage, 2 or 3 goats would keep it cleared.
-
Be careful running a trimmer mower around poison oak, ivy, or sumac. The sap turns into mist, flies up and sticks to every thing, spreading its evil ulcers upon all present.
-
Be careful running a trimmer mower around poison oak, ivy, or sumac. The sap turns into mist, flies up and sticks to every thing, spreading its evil ulcers upon all present.
What a flipping nightmare scenario.
I vote chemical warfare followed by FIRE.
-
A guy I used to work with used a string trimmer to cut down a bunch of giant wild parsnips. Wearing shorts. (him, not the parsnips) On a hot sunny day. He ended up in the hospital from the chemical burns on his legs.
-
A guy I used to work with used a string trimmer to cut down a bunch of giant wild parsnips. Wearing shorts. (him, not the parsnips) On a hot sunny day. He ended up in the hospital from the chemical burns on his legs.
Beat me to it..
-
Try the entertainment of watching college kids on dirt bikes going through thistles and bull nettle. They get used to the thistle after a while, then they hit their first bull nettle and usually wipe out about 50-100 feet past it when it suddenly feels like their legs caught fire.
-
A guy I used to work with used a string trimmer to cut down a bunch of giant wild parsnips. Wearing shorts. (him, not the parsnips) On a hot sunny day. He ended up in the hospital from the chemical burns on his legs.
Thank you for clarifying on the shorts.
As to the poison ivy, not being susceptible to its evil ways has advantages.
-
Thank you for clarifying on the shorts.
As to the poison ivy, not being susceptible to its evil ways has advantages.
It does indeed. But, I still don't get stupid around the stuff. If I manage to get it on a fresh scratch or scrape it'll itch a bit for a few days. Who needs that?
-
Same here. One of these days it'll probably change and bite me :lol:
-
Same here. One of these days it'll probably change and bite me :lol:
I hope not. If the temps are warm enough where the plant oils volatize I can break out just being near the plants.
-
And another thing....
Don't burn the Toxiodenron plants ( poison ivy, oak, or sumac). I never heard of an actual case, usually a "friend of a guy I used to work with had a cousin who" type story, but the poison irritants become mobile in the smoke, and when inhaled, can cause inflammation and irritation of the respiratory system, resulting in a non negotiable ride in the amberlamps.
I disremember, but did hear confirmation of this from an authority type, like a woodland firefighter, restoration biologist or a horticulture professor.. DYODD.
-
I hope not. If the temps are warm enough where the plant oils volatize I can break out just being near the plants.
So that is how i get it despite being covered up in long pants and long sleeves.
-
So that is how i get it despite being covered up in long pants and long sleeves.
or the oil gets absorbed by your clothing as you brush by the plants and then contacts your skin. Let's just say I learned not to touch a certain part of my body as youngster without washing my hands after being in the woods during the warm months.
-
I've heard the same thing about burning the "poison" plants. That's why I stay upwind when they're on the burn pile. When we first moved in all I had to do was get close to the stuff to break out, after working with it in sleeveless T's for a few years it seems as if I've worked up either an immunity or high tolerance to it. I can reach into the trailer, grab a double armful and heave it onto the burn pile with no adverse affect.
I'd get a couple goats ASAP if I could figure out the answers to two problems:
a) How to keep them safe from coyotes without getting a donkey or putting up a coyote proof fence around 5 acres or putting them in a escape proof mobile confinement area
and
b) How to convince SWMBO that a couple goats would be a good thing. Just tonight she shot the idea down again - for the umpteenth time.
B is the real sticking point.
Decades ago I was real impressed with the work one goat was able to do to berry bushes that were probably 10' high x 10 yd wide and 30 yd long. Took him less than a month to make it all disappear. Just kept moving the chain anchor point as he worked his way through it.
or the oil gets absorbed by your clothing as you brush by the plants and then contacts your skin. Let's just say I learned not to touch a certain part of my body as youngster without washing my hands after being in the woods during the warm months.
Ouch! Middle brother did that as a young'un. He didn't like it.