Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: 230RN on May 20, 2011, 03:17:50 AM
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Back in the mid-seventies I experimented around with making .243 bullets out of .22 Magnum cases. I had noticed that .22 Mag cases were 6mm in outside diameter. It sorta worked, but I just did it to see if it could be done --a "proof of concept" kind of thing. I'm sorta of the opinion that the art and science of firearms should not reside solely with big manufacturers and governments.
I made maybe 10 or 15 experimental bullets all in all and they worked moderately well. The process I used was subject to considerable improvement, but I had made my own dies, and having proved the feasibility, I went on to other things.
When I got rid of my lathe and whatnot, I turned over a bunch of miscellaneous tools and dies that I had made to my son, including a tool bit for converting .357 cases to .38 Super, some other crap, plus the dies I had made for the .243 bullets.
He came across those dies about three years ago and I told him what they were for and how they worked, and he decided to see if he could make .223 bullets out of .22 LR cases. He's got his own machine shop now, so I told him how to make D-reamers for the dies and offered some other suggestions.
This was before either of us realized that there were others doing the same thing. Phooey.
So anyhow, he's almost perfected the process now, and here's the result. He's having the same problem I had, which was blending the ogive seamlessly into the bearing surface of the bullets.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.loesch.org%2F%7Earviel%2FBOOLITS.JPG&hash=e18c4687ec921bab131c82031c15fe3b8ac1c2f2)
However, he's gotten 2 1/2 inch groups out of these 52 grain bullets, so I guess that little shoulder doesn't matter that much, and "improvements" will be more the result of refining the "art" and technique rather than in refining the process itself.
In any case, he's also proved the concept.
Terry, 230RN
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Interesting, but as you said, others have done it before. (RCBS is an abbreviation for something like Rock Chuck Bullet Swage, and IIRC, Corbin was doing the same.)
.22 bullets aren't too expensive . . . I've often thought it would be interesting to see if, say, .223(?) cases could be reformed to make .375 bullets, which are anything but cheap. But I suspect the up-front costs for dies and such - maybe even a bigger press - would outweigh the savings of making cheap jacketed bullets for my .375 H&H. And cartridge brass probably isn't as suitable a material for bullet jackets as what they use now.
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Yeah, I've seen the people making .223 out of .22LR cases. Although all the one's I've seen were FMJ, with the rimfire base forward and swaged down to a spitzer profile point. That's how they're getting around the ogive issues.
You've still got something unique there that you're making SP ammo. That's very cool.
And there's guys making .40 jackets out of 9mm cases, and .45's out of .40 cases. If one ever gets used in a crime, the Coroner/ME is going to be REAL confused... :laugh:
And IIRC, the dies were pretty expensive, like $400 or so. So one has to have lots of brass they don't want to reload anymore, and shoot a lot to recoup the costs of just buying factory bullets for reloading.
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Very neat. Are you annealing the cases to get them dead soft, or just working as is? I want to do .45 bullets from .40 cases, mainly because I have 5 gallons of .40 brass and no .40. I'm thinking of popping the primer and using the .40 case with the case head as the front of the bullet. Now if I could get that to feed it would punch quite the hole. =D
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And IIRC, the dies were pretty expensive, like $400 or so. So one has to have lots of brass they don't want to reload anymore, and shoot a lot to recoup the costs of just buying factory bullets for reloading.
I think the .223 is the way to go with this stuff.
Shoot lots of rimfire for practice, then make your jacketed centerfire bullets from the expended rimfire brass.
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Call me stupid, but how do you make a bullet out of a hollow case ???
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Call me stupid, but how do you make a bullet out of a hollow case ???
Use dies to reshape the empty casing into an appropriate jacket, then put a core inside it, a specific length of lead wire swaged in for example. Then form the ogive or close up the base, depending on from which direction you made it.
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You've still got something unique there that you're making SP ammo. That's very cool.
Cool, now that Tallpine asked my first question, I've got a second:
What's SP ammo?
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Soft Point. ;)
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Cheap: Cheap wasn't the object. Feasibility was the object. He's probably got 200 hours of R&D ( or F&G --Fun and Games) time into the project. Beats playing video games, eh? Or reading the New York Times.
His are flat-bottomed, the .243 ones I made from .22 Mag brass had a hollow base from just ironing out the rim. I've got to ask him how he did that.
His first samples showed a smooth ogive, but the flare in the nose-forming nose punch was too thin and tended to crack after only a few forming operations, so he thickened up the part which meets the bearing surface. He's working on proper heat-treating of a thin-edged nose punch so it will hold up better. I was pretty tired when I talked to him last, but I think he's thinking of a separate operation to smooth out that step with a single forming die with no nose punch, just a continuous shape. But I think he's rather work out the heat-treating first.
Cores: He made a mold for the cores which I am told by his brother looks pretty good, but he hasn't sent me a pic of the mold yet.
When/If he sends me a pic of that, I'll post it.
Terry, 230RN
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Use dies to reshape the empty casing into an appropriate jacket, then put a core inside it, a specific length of lead wire swaged in for example. Then form the ogive or close up the base, depending on from which direction you made it.
Oh, so you're basically using the case for a mold.
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Soft Point. ;)
>.< Sadly, I don't think I'd have eventually figured it out, though.
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THR.org, among other websites, has a reference library for abbreviations, initialisms, acronyms, etc. :)
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Oh, so you're basically using the case for a mold.
???
They stick the lead inside the spent brass case, then the whole thing is rammed into a die with a bullet shaped cavity inside it so hard that the old .22LR case becomes the jacket metal for the new bullet.
The die is the "mold" if anything.
Maybe I just don't get what you're saying?
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The case becomes the "jacket" after swaging:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi141.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr55%2Fkawalekm%2F380Autocaseto357bullet.jpg&hash=3bd027c57700afda49affe50857a54fa14131514)
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Since casting silver is a PIA (that's "pain-in-the-ass" makattak :P ) I always thought swaging would be the way to go for "silver bullets". It has to be easier to buy or machine a cylindrical core than to form a shootable bullet in a mold.
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Maybe I just don't get what you're saying?
Well, it seems like you are adding the case to a bullet, rather than making a bullet from the case.
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Well, it seems like you are adding the case to a bullet, rather than making a bullet from the case.
Jacketed bullet, case becomes the jacket. The lead is just a core, a raw cylinder like a fishing pencil weight cut to length, not a formed "boolit" of any kind prior to the swaging.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkAU5ekbPLA
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http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/st_223short_200711/
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Since casting silver is a PIA (that's "pain-in-the-ass" makattak :P ) I always thought swaging would be the way to go for "silver bullets". It has to be easier to buy or machine a cylindrical core than to form a shootable bullet in a mold.
That could work....or, you could just fit an appropriately-sized silver ball inside a lead hollowpoint and crimp it closed....kinda like using steel BB's for deep-penetration ammo...after all, how much silver do you need to kill a sparkly vampire?.... :cool:
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how much silver do you need to kill a sparkly vampire?.... :cool:
I don't charge anything for those. =D
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So, do you make little hats for your boolits, too ?
:lol:
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The empty .22 case is shoved through a die to size it and iron out the rim. The remains of the rim can be seen in the rear of the bullets in the photo in the first post.
The mold I referred to is a mold he also made to cast the lead cores.
These lead cores are then inserted into the sized, ironed-out jacket. The jackets are still straight-sided at this point, so the cores just go in with light force.
This assembly is inserted into the forming (swaging) die.
The top punch inside the forming die is shaped like the nose of the final bullet.
The assembled core and jacket (which is still straight-sided) are then forced into this swaging die to form the final bullet and bullet nose.
The top punch is then forced down to eject the final formed bullet.
Incidentally, I point out again that he made his own reamers, dies and top punches, and the reamer to make the core mold with.
(My keyboard shut down for some reason and I could not answer as soon as I would have liked to.)
Terry, 230RN
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In my fantasy world me the welder figures out a way to take a 3/16 tungsten and grind it to a consistent weight and shape, then swages a .22 case around it. :angel:
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Since casting silver is a PIA (that's "pain-in-the-ass" makattak :P ) I always thought swaging would be the way to go for "silver bullets".
IIRC, the really pretty ones are cast oversize in graphite molds, then polished to size on a lathe.
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IIRC, the really pretty ones are cast oversize in graphite molds, then polished to size on a lathe.
Right, with higher heat and handling and some kind of neutral gas puddle on top.
Take ingot or misshapen blob of silver, cut off most, lather rest round, swage into jacket.
You could build a press to mechanically extrude silver wire more easily than the process to cast it.
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I add 2 feet of Stay-Brite8 to every ten pounds of lead. Sn 94% Ag 6%.
It's been enough for every werewolf I've had to shoot.
Are the reamers made on the lathe or with a grinder? Or both? ;) What radius is he aiming for?
jim
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The reamers are turned down to shape in the lathe, then almost 1/2 is ground away to form a "D." This D-reamer is then hardened and the small amount remaining is ground to exactly 1/2 the original diameter. These are called D-reamers because in cross-section they look like a D. The final fine-grinding and honing may be done by hand and forms two cutting edges at the points of the D.
The die is rough-formed in the lathe and finished with this D-reamer. They are often used in developmental work. Of course, full-fluted reamers are then custom ground if the prototypes is successful. The cutting process with a D-reamer is slow, but it works. A pilot for the reamer is usually necessary because the forces involved in the cutting are unbalanced, unlike a multiple-flute reamer.
Incidentally, I know personally of someone who shall be nameless, but is not me, who accidentally and unknowingly used a solid silver spoon (from "Grandma," who shall also remain nameless) to stir his pot of bullet alloy.
This was told to me as solid unalloyed truth and I believe the party who told me.
He made the interesting discovery that silver is dissolved by molten lead when he left the spoon in the pot for a while. He did cast bullets with this silver alloy. I have no idea of the resulting percentage of silver in the alloy, or for that matter what the minimum percentage of silver is for one shot kills on zombies or vampires or werewolves or whatever.
However I would assume that an arrow or a bolt from a crossbow would be functionally identical to a wooden stake, and can be administered remotely, just like silver bullets.
Terry, 230RN