Not giving up... but what ARE the options?

[AZRedhawk44]

What countries out there, excluding us:

-Have no centralized health care
-Have respect for rights of the people to KBA
-Have respect for the elements of our Bill of Rights that we cherish
-Have an economy that you can make a living in

??

Foregoing that... what African/Micronesian/Caribbean nations could we set sail towards, with the APS Armada, and conquer with our combined might?

[Balog]

Short answer, none. Sadly, even with Obamacare I don't think one could find the level of freedom the US has anywhere else.

[HankB]

Foregoing that... what African/Micronesian/Caribbean nations could we set sail towards, with the APS Armada, and conquer with our combined might?

Sail? Why? From what I've read, Canada has been downsizing it's armed forces pretty significantly . . . at the rate they're going, in a couple more years a couple of us good 'ol boys can probably drive north for a bit and just take over.   

[Balog]

Montana needs it's Lebensraum, and they aren't really using all that space anyway... 

[Mabs2]

Hey, if you guys really do sail off to a small Caribbean country, you let me know...I'm a decent shot and I can fry eggs in the galley.

[Doggy Daddy]

[I can fry eggs in the galley.

That has to be a euphemism for something! 

DD

[Mabs2]

That has to be a euphemism for something! 

DD

No. :(

[Tuco]

Foregoing that... what African/Micronesian/Caribbean nations could we set sail towards, with the APS Armada, and conquer with our combined might?

CUBA!!!

[Ben]

I think there are a half dozen or so "anything goes" countries that you could consider free in that you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want, but you probably have to spend a lot of time looking over your shoulder during the day and sleeping with a gun under your pillow at night.

I would be hard pressed to name a country that has both our freedom and a stable infrastructure.

Edit: Actually some of the Eastern European formerly Communist Block countries that are now very much into capitalism could be getting close to us. I'm thinking Ukraine (though their present regime leans socalist) Estonia, and others in that area. Still might require sleeping with a gun under your pillow.

[MicroBalrog]

Have you considered seasteading, comrades?

[Mabs2]

I think there are a half dozen or so "anything goes" countries that you could consider free in that you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want, but you probably have to spend a lot of time looking over your shoulder during the day and sleeping with a gun under your pillow at night.

I would be hard pressed to name a country that has both our freedom and a stable infrastructure.

That's the problem, isn't it?
APSers should buy an island, or conquer one.
Give it a nice constitution and bill of rights and close the borders to all but the really cool people.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I knew some folks who expatriated to rural Mexico for the freedom.  They said that on paper the Mexican government is more oppressive than America, but in practice it's much freer.  Mexico passes lots of ninny laws but don't have any ability to enforce them, whereas  America passes fewer ninny laws but we enforce every one of 'em in excruciating detail.

The practical result, they say, is that in Mexico they leave you alone to live out your life as you will.  And as long as you stay away from the border regions and the cartel districts, it's supposed to be a pretty nice place to live.  They say they have to pay a few bribes from time to time to get things done, but they say that's much cheaper than paying the IRS to leave you alone.

Worse is that I know a few business people who say that China is becoming a freer, more capitalist place to run a business than the US is.

[Viking]

I think there are a half dozen or so "anything goes" countries that you could consider free in that you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want, but you probably have to spend a lot of time looking over your shoulder during the day and sleeping with a gun under your pillow at night.

I would be hard pressed to name a country that has both our freedom and a stable infrastructure.

Edit: Actually some of the Eastern European formerly Communist Block countries that are now very much into capitalism could be getting close to us. I'm thinking Ukraine (though their present regime leans socalist) Estonia, and others in that area. Still might require sleeping with a gun under your pillow.

The Czech Republic is fairly free from what I've understood. CCW is even possible for the average citizen...

[Tallpine]

Montana needs it's Lebensraum, and they aren't really using all that space anyway... 

We have plenty of space, as long as you can get by eating grass and sagebrush. 

Seriously, you all could try doing a "Free State" project here.  I started my own in 1997.

[Ben]

I knew some folks who expatriated to rural Mexico for the freedom.  They said that on paper the Mexican government is more oppressive than America, but in practice it's much freer.  Mexico passes lots of ninny laws but don't have any ability to enforce them, whereas  America passes fewer ninny laws but we enforce every one of 'em in excruciating detail.

I've heard the same thing. One thing that would put me off of Mexico though is that you can't own your land if you expat down there. Don't know if that would change if you applied for citizenship or if they would even let you become a citizen. I know it's a lot harder to legally immigrate to Mexico than it is for Mexicans to immigrate into the US.

[Balog]

The Czech Republic is fairly free from what I've understood. CCW is even possible for the average citizen...

O rly? How do they stand on home-schooling? That's a non-negotiable for us, and not something the Europeans seem to be ok with by and large.

[Viking]

O rly? How do they stand on home-schooling? That's a non-negotiable for us, and not something the Europeans seem to be ok with by and large.

A quick search on Google says it's legal .
It's technically legal here as well, though the government is apparently working on "correcting" this.

[mellestad]

Worse is that I know a few business people who say that China is becoming a freer, more capitalist place to run a business than the US is.

Eh...I don't think so.  Chinese business interests are heavily regulated, and regulation is expanding very quickly as they step into the legitimate global market.  My company is expanding in to China and the process has been literally years of red tape and green money.

They do have a nice capitalist ethos in many areas though.  China is a strange place, in some ways they are very similar to American culture, in others it is like you are on a different planet.

[AZRedhawk44]

I've heard the same thing. One thing that would put me off of Mexico though is that you can't own your land if you expat down there. Don't know if that would change if you applied for citizenship or if they would even let you become a citizen. I know it's a lot harder to legally immigrate to Mexico than it is for Mexicans to immigrate into the US.

I think I heard that restriction only applies to beachfront property.  Not property in general.  But I haven't researched it.

[Laurent du Var]

O rly? How do they stand on home-schooling? That's a non-negotiable for us, and not something the Europeans seem to be ok with by and large.

Not entirely true.
My wife thinks about home-schoolling  our kids from 10 to 14 years old to avoid the
public school system.
  

[Balog]

One cannot, of course, generalize too much about "Europe" because of how many nations states there are. But I think overall, more Euro nations are home-school unfriendly than are home-school pro. But I could be wrong...

[wmenorr67]

We could always take over France and start our own country.  That wouldn't be too hard since they don't fight much.

[Viking]

One cannot, of course, generalize too much about "Europe" because of how many nations states there are. But I think overall, more Euro nations are home-school unfriendly than are home-school pro. But I could be wrong...

I know it's illegal in Germany. A German family got political asylum in the US a month or so ago for that reason.

[dogmush]

We could always take over France and start our own country.  That wouldn't be too hard since they don't fight much.

Hmm. Good climate, good food, nuke power plants already built.  We should look in to this closer.

[vaskidmark]

OK, before we go off conquering new territories, can we take a look at the ideas expressed here
http://curmudgeonlyskeptical.blogspot.com/2010/03/war-then-peace.html possibly nsfw language
and here
http://www.thebredafallacy.com/2010/03/buck-up-buttercups.html  may be considered nsfw language

I'm just not sure I want to let "them" have the place.  Admittedly 234 years is a bit over the average for a democracy I would like to see if the run could be extended a bit more.  Also, while no longer lean I am still pretty mean.  Somebody's got to be the REMF Fobbit, right?

Anybody else not yet willing to give up and try over somewhere else?

stay safe.

skidmark