Author Topic: Not giving up... but what ARE the options?  (Read 9531 times)

Balog

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Re: Not giving up... but what ARE the options?
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2010, 11:37:14 PM »
AJ Dual has summed up my thoughts, as he so often does (when not talking about the approaching singularity  ;) ).
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GigaBuist

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Re: Not giving up... but what ARE the options?
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2010, 11:40:28 PM »
OTOH consider this.

Our Founding Fathers started a war and killing their fellow countrymen over what was roughly a 3% tax on tea.

Uh, no.  Let us take a look at at the Declaration of Independence:

Quote
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

You see "tea tax" anywhere in there?  The closest you can get is "For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent" but in our case we elected these guys just 2 years ago.  They have consent.  

This is an annoyance.  It is not in any way, shape, or form reason for a freaking revolution.

Nick1911

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Re: Not giving up... but what ARE the options?
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2010, 11:55:25 PM »
Options, huh?

As is often the case, you (the individual) can't change the state.  You won't win that argument unless you are part of a rather large movement of similar minded people.  Movements require leaders to spark action and unite disorganized crowds around a singular goal.  As of now, no such movement exists.  The TEA parties are a start, but they aren't large enough as of yet.

So, for options, I'd say:
1. Start a movement or join one.  It's dubious whether enough other people will join this action to make your effort worthwhile, though.  And you have no control over that aspect.

or

2. Expat. 
Seriously, if the situation around you sucks, and you can improve your life by going somewhere else, leaving will change your personal situation more then trying to change the government will.  Good luck finding somewhere in the world that offers freedom without sacrificing established infrastructure.  Personally, I like having electric power and running water 24/7.  A Lot.

AJ Dual

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Re: Not giving up... but what ARE the options?
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2010, 12:33:16 AM »
Uh, no.  Let us take a look at at the Declaration of Independence:

You see "tea tax" anywhere in there?  The closest you can get is "For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent" but in our case we elected these guys just 2 years ago.  They have consent.  

This is an annoyance.  It is not in any way, shape, or form reason for a freaking revolution.

Of course from the British perspective of the time, everything in the DoI was just a bunch of "drama" and hyperbole.

And the way the whole health care issue is polling, "consent" is arguable.

I'm not calling for a revolution, just commenting on how in these situations where "the process" is failing, what's being done/passed is demonstrably "wrong" on many levels, and the dichotomy between criminal/terrorist and freedom fighter is very muddy and subject to interpretation.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Not giving up... but what ARE the options?
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2010, 12:49:49 AM »
It's not just the health care bill that is pushing us past what the nation's founders considered to be the limits. It's the sum of all of the injustices rained on us over decades, bringing us to the point where some will be paying 60-70% of their incomes to federal, state and local taxes, where "diversity" trumps justice, political correctness has replaced reason, and the means justify the ends.

We are close to the level of tyranny that drove our forefathers to revolt. We may not be forced to quarter soldiers in our homes, but our forefathers' homes were theirs to do with as they pleased. Today you cannot buy a two-gallon toilet. In 2014, you won't be able to buy an incandescent bulb. The most trivial and mundane aspects of our lives are controlled, as are the most important.

The People have been polled. They have rallied and written and called, and their voices have been ignored as surely as those of our forefathers. When the politicians in DC refuse to yield to their constituents, and the constituents have exhausted all peaceful means of redress, what's left?

When reasonable people such as those on APS begin talk of revolution and violence, the situation has gone beyond anything we've seen in 150 years.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 12:54:52 AM by Monkeyleg »

mellestad

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Re: Not giving up... but what ARE the options?
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2010, 02:15:42 PM »
And why praytell are you dragging the little blog into this discussion?  It was going fine until you did that.  
Trolling is a great way to get the jack-boot.

The blog was linked to by a poster.  If I link to a blog, that usually means I support what the blog says.  Perhaps that assumption was incorrect?

I just get tired of seeing so much talk about violence.  If you want me to start quoting for examples I certainly can.  I hope there is a better definition of trolling than 'isn't a conservative libertarian who thinks martial law is imminent' :P

I had a discussion with someone else on this board about that, via PM a while ago.  If APS wants to threaten banning every time a ‘liberal’ opens their mouth and has the audacity to disagree with the majority here, that is fine.  But please change the site name to “Armed, Conservative, Sometimes Polite Society” then update the FAQ to include a list of political opinions posters are not allowed to have.


@AJ: I was going to point out that it was more complicated than that, but Giga beat me to it.  To me, the only valid reason for armed rebellion is when the political process is actually broken or a minority is being truly oppressed by the majority.  The colonies had no political power, they had no choice but to rebel.  Conservative libertarians still have political power.

As long as the democratic process is still intact, that should be the only option considered.  If a group is unable to get what it wants through that democratic process, well, too bad.  If conservatives come into power and privatize everything you aren't going to see me on forums waxing poetic about violence as the only solution.  Politics isn't about minority groups getting what they want, it is about finding a solution that is the most acceptable to the most people.

But maybe the difference in viewpoint is just too vast.  I can't imagine something like 'Obamacare' being worth killing over, maybe some think it is.  Honestly, I don’t see the founding fathers starting a rebellion over public healthcare either.  To me, the split in economic ideology in this country will never be something worth killing over, it is just economic ideology!  If one side wins conclusively in the political arena then that system will be implemented.  If it works it will stay.  If it doesn't work then either the balance of power will shift, or the country will collapse and a new government will be born.


And maybe that is the final point.  I would rather see a political and economic collapse followed by a new government than a civil war.

 I mean, I *could* advocate violence.  I am a ‘liberal’, I am armed, I know how to use my ‘assault rifles’ as well as most people here.  I could talk about how I’ll defend Obamacare with my life, bullets and blades, or how I think violence might be the only option if Roe v. Wade is repealed!  But then I wouldn’t be any different than those I am criticizing, and you would all be lined up to tell me how stupid I am.


mellestad

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Re: Not giving up... but what ARE the options?
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2010, 02:19:34 PM »

The People have been polled. They have rallied and written and called, and their voices have been ignored as surely as those of our forefathers. When the politicians in DC refuse to yield to their constituents, and the constituents have exhausted all peaceful means of redress, what's left?


Voting?  When politicians don't do what you want them to do, you vote them out of office.  If they are not voted out of office that usually means enough people agree with them to keep them their.

There are threads, right here, right now on this board talking about how many Democrats have lost special elections.  So...what's wrong?  Just because things are not going your way doesn't mean democracy is broken.  When Reagen was president I would criticize a liberal for saying, 'democracy is broken', even though they probably felt like you do now.

I was just as active telling Bush haters to calm down when they got melodramatic.

Balog

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Re: Not giving up... but what ARE the options?
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2010, 02:28:57 PM »
If they get an amnesty through to bring in 20-30 million more illegals to vote Democrat I'd say the system is broken.

Also, the issue with all these entitlement programs is they form dependent classes. Saying "Well you can always vote them out" stops working once we're all slaves to fed.gov, depending on them for our jobs, our healthcare, our retirement etc etc.

And me personally, I'd rather see poli-critters be killed for violating the Constitution than a total economic collapse ala Argentina. Course I'm one of those evil baby-killing infantry Marines who is silly enough to tkae that whole "enemies foreign and domestic" thing seriously.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Not giving up... but what ARE the options?
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2010, 02:31:58 PM »
This one is heading off into non-APS territory.
JD

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