Author Topic: Updating the PC  (Read 9269 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Updating the PC
« on: December 06, 2013, 10:34:55 AM »
I've been apathetic to the desktop market for awhile, having shifted most of my computing to either a laptop due to convenience and no longer gaming, and multimedia to a combination of blu-ray player and home NAS.

So, my "good computer" has languished in the corner, unappreciated and un-upgraded.

Now, the mobo on this machine is giving me grief after firing it up to play with Litecoin mining.  It's an AMD triple core Phenom with 8GB RAM, dual Radeon 3870 cards.  Random weird interrupts where the system freezes for a second at a time, even at idle, then releases.

Digging through my spare PC parts and carcasses, I find that I have another Asus AM2+ capable mobo system, with a dual-core AMD 5000, 2GB RAM and an Nvidia 8600GT card.  I load this thing up with Win7 64-bit and everything seems fine.  I swap out the 5000 dual core CPU for the Phenom, along with the 8GB of RAM.  No problems.  

It's mining Litecoin right now with the Nvidia GPU and the CUDA library, at a whopping 8 khash/s.  I need to set up a CPU miner also, which might net me another 5khash/s to add to that.  (I know it's not energy/financially efficient, this is pure play).  

Given the age of the system, I am considering some selective upgrading to it.  I don't want to do a full rebuild of cpu/mobo/ram/gpu/hdd/optical drive... just key parts.

The fastest CPU I think I can put in this would be an AMD Phenom II X6.  That's an AM3 class chip, but these are able to be put into most AM2/AM2+ capable motherboards.  BIOS update may be necessary.  That would take me from 3 to 6 cores, and 2.3Ghz per core to as much as 4Ghz per core depending on which Phenom II I happen to find.  I should still be able to re-use the mobo and RAM.

My failed mobo had four PCIe x16 slots and I had dual Radeon 3870's running in it, keeping me happy from a gaming perspective for years until I got bored with gaming.  This backup mobo only has a single PCIe x16 slot, so any replacement video card is not going to be able to Crossfired or augmented another way.  There is an onboard "Radeon 3000" on this mobo, but I have it disabled right now.  I don't know if the onboard card can be Crossfired with an additional card.  I doubt it, this was a cheaper mobo (Asus M3A76-CM).  Current PSU is a 500 watt unit, but I have a 700 watt unit I can steal from the other computer if need be.  So juicing a new card isn't going to be a problem.

What video card should I be looking at to "refresh" this system?  Radeon seems to be the name of the game.  The PCIe slot on my mobo is a 2.0 specification.  With the 2.1 or 3.0 spec cards interface with a 2.0 spec slot?  I also think it's generally not a good idea to buy the latest/greatest in video cards.


ETA:  Evidently I can run a PCIe 3.0 card in a PCIe 2.0 slot.  No problem there.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 11:05:59 AM by AZRedhawk44 »
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Gewehr98

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2013, 12:04:05 PM »
Your mining will suffer without a more powerful Radeon, since that's where the crunching happens these days - not CPU.

BTW, you're not really hamstrung with a PCIe 2.0 slot:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1188376/hardwarecanucks-hd-7970-pci-e-3-0-vs-pci-e-2-0-comparison
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2013, 01:35:03 PM »
So, I set up a quick CPU miner and gave it 3 threads on my 3-core CPU.

The Nvidia 8600GT is crunching at about 8khash, and the combined output of the CPU miner is going at about 30khash... though I don't trust that number yet.  It needs to run for a couple hours to get a better average baseline.

Though I do agree/understand that conventionally, the GPU miners are far more efficient (hence the reason I want to get an updated GPU).
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 02:07:57 PM »
I'm going to get the Asus Radeon R9 270X.  Seems to be the highest-clocked 270X implementation out there, without stepping up to the 280 series (which are all out of stock right now anyways).

I'll hold off on the CPU... upgrading to the Phenom II X6 will only take me to ~40kash according to stats I can find.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2013, 03:00:15 PM »
I think I'm also going to buy a few used second-hand ASIC USB miners, as well, and set up some BTC mining on the same rig.  The CPU mining for LTC will stop doing that once I get the new video card, so the mobo will largely be idle and power consumption on the PSU will be largely just focused on the video card.  There will be ample CPU resources to shuffle data to the LTC app for GPU work, so setting up a second app to shuffle data to ASICs is largely just gonna be gravy and almost no cost, since the ASICs run at about half a watt each.  I'll set up some external USB hubs that I already have which are doing nothing right now, and just add another ASIC which will pool another 300-350Mhash every week or two.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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lee n. field

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2013, 07:50:32 PM »
AZ, I have some hardware that might be of interest to you, from my son's stuff, that he acquired for a bitcoin miner.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 08:34:18 PM by lee n. field »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2013, 09:07:41 PM »
There's quite a bit in this thread to respond to, so I'm going to post numbered responses to all of the things AZ said that made sense to me:

0)  ???
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Ben

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2013, 09:30:42 PM »
 (I know it's not energy/financially efficient, this is pure play).  


Please explain. Is it a problem of electricity costs to run a system long enough to mine these things has you paying more in electric bills than the value of the coins you mine? I have little understanding of the whole cryptocurrency thing.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2013, 12:03:18 AM »
Please explain. Is it a problem of electricity costs to run a system long enough to mine these things has you paying more in electric bills than the value of the coins you mine? I have little understanding of the whole cryptocurrency thing.

Under any currency, it's not financially/energy efficient to use the CPU to mine.  You suck up 250 watts or more, to produce minimal hashes.  

Several years ago, it made sense to mine BTC using GPU, and special apps were written to do so with video cards of that era.  Nowadays, the algorithms to solve to be rewarded with BTC are so complicated and specialized, that both CPU and GPU mining for BTC will still consume 500+ watts of juice and not produce enough BTC to even cover the electric costs.  

But, the ASIC miners from about a year or so back are USB based.  USB can only consume 500 milliwatts per object.  They provide ~300 megahash/sec.  They can be clustered to provide gigahashes, if you have enough USB connectivity.  

As a stand-alone rig, they don't make much sense.  BTC nowadays requires dozens of gigahashes to be lucrative.  Lee N. Field has a Butterfly Labs solution that produces (if I recall correctly) 6 Ghash/sec, and it's barely worth the power to leave on.  That's because you have to power the computer that then powers the Butterfly Labs device that connects to it via USB.

However, I'm primarily focused on mining LTC... not BTC.

LTC can be mined using today's modern GPU's, still.  My current GPU's (Nvidia 8600 GT, and a pair of Radeon 3870's) are too old to be financially viable for the power they suck.  The Nvidia will suck 400 watts on a system running a GPU miner app and a CPU miner app combined.  And provide about 20-25khash total.  In comparison, a good stand-alone LTC mining rig will provide at least 250khash.  There are miners in my pool that appear to generate over 2000khash using a single box, by using Radeon Crossfire technology and multiple high-end GPU's.  There are some people building farms in their homes and generating 20,000khash in my pool.  They win the lion's share of the proceeds from successful mining in the LTC blockchain.

I'm upgrading my GPU form the Nvidia, which is producing about 8khash (CPU is producing another 12-15khash), to an AMD Radeon R9 270X.  Benchmarks from other users indicate it should produce nearly 500khash.

The Nvidia 8600 GT I have supports Nvidia's CUDA instruction set, which is an instruction set that LTC code developers have used to write the mining apps and optimize them for Nvidia cards.  The preferred instruction set, though, is OpenCL (not OpenGL).  CUDA is a proprietary variant of OpenCL that only Nvidia supports, and the 8600 is probably the earliest card Nvidia made that can run it.  My Radeon 3XXX cards, despite being newer and faster for games, do not support OpenCL.  The earliest generation of Radeon cards to do that is the 4XXX series.  So I cannot effectively run the LTC mining app on my more powerful Radeon cards I currently have, and I'm running on the Nvidia cards using the CUDA instruction set. 

The Radeon R9 270X that I ordered does support OpenCL, and is about 50x more powerful than my 8600GT when executing similar code.

I was considering upgrading my CPU from the 3-core to a more advanced 6-core chipset, but the khash increase would only be from ~12 to ~40.  Not enough reward for the $150+ investment.  Instead, I will sit on the money and consider an eventual replacement of the mobo/cpu for a board like the one that recently failed... with multiple PCIe slots, and fill it up with additional Radeon R9 cards and Crossfire them to exceed the megahash threshold.

So, while that is cranking away (in what appears to be an economically sound model at $25+ LTC, and a loss I can tolerate if that turns out to not be true), I have the CPU at idle.  People are selling their ASIC USB BitCoin calculators to raise money for the next wave of 480GHash interfaces, at $5000 each.  The little USB ASIC sticks are selling for about $50 each and provide ~300Mhash.

The computer is already on.  There will be about 3 watts of additional power consumption to run 6 of these miners, and they would provide almost 2Ghash of processing on BTC.  The results will be "dust" in the land of BTC... hundredths of a coin per interval... but how many of you think about the power consumption of an LED nightlight?  And those hundredths of a coin each interval will stack up slowly over time.  

Given the point of this machine is to mine LTC... it doesn't hurt to multitask.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 12:35:52 AM by AZRedhawk44 »
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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grislyatoms

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2013, 12:44:36 AM »
Though central to my experience, DO NOT let your users upgrade to IE11. IE11 DOES NOT work with Citrix.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2013, 12:54:34 AM »
Lulz... I just got my first LTC reward from my pathetic CPU/GPU combined mining on my junky rig:  0.003 LTC.   =D

That's like $0.08!   :rofl:


I did have a lot of "stale shares" from using a primitive config though... near 15%.  I re-configured earlier this evening to use something called Stratum to handle multiple mining agents (I am running one app for GPU and one for CPU, each separate, connected to the same pool).  This should stop them from stepping on each other and coordinate the workload better.  The last few hours have seen that stale share volume drop to about 3%, which is to be expected with slow hardware like mine.

That's not a 24 hour period, though.  Only about 15 hours.  With config tweaks in there, and I started the day only mining on the GPU and ended up turning on CPU mining around lunch time.  Then the Stratum improvement around dinner time.

It'll improve over the next couple days, probably getting me somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.010 to 0.015 LTC per day (about $0.27 to $0.40).

The new video card will result in about 25x the net result per day(0.25 to 0.40 LTC), with less power consumption since I will turn off CPU mining.  If it works well for the next month that way, I will invest in an inexpensive replacement AM2+ motherboard that will fit my 3-core CPU and existing RAM, but has 4-way Crossfire capability, and put another Radeon GPU in the machine.  Then extend one per month.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2013, 12:55:16 AM »
Though central to my experience, DO NOT let your users upgrade to IE11. IE11 DOES NOT work with Citrix.

I can't get my Apple to logon to my Citrus, anyways. ;)
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!

Ben

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2013, 09:03:57 AM »
Interesting - thanks for that explanation AZ. It seems like mining is almost a cross between gambling and stock market investing. Your electricity is your capital, and if the currency goes up like Bitcoin did, even if you were paying out your gain in electricity costs early on, you still have a potential for gain long term if the currency appreciates.

It also seems equipment used is sort of like the difference between what Warren Buffet throws into an investment, and what your average Joe on Ameritrade puts in. If electricity costs are a primary driver, it seems like someone with solar or other renewable energy powering their home / office would have an out there. I wonder how long it would take to recover the costs of a dedicated solar panel or two and a couple of batteries to run a mining computer?
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lee n. field

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2013, 09:58:01 AM »
Though central to my experience, DO NOT let your users upgrade to IE11. IE11 DOES NOT work with Citrix.

MS has scripts available to block the automatic install of both IE 10 and IE 11.
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lee n. field

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2013, 10:13:49 AM »
Quote
Several years ago, it made sense to mine BTC using GPU, and special apps were written to do so with video cards of that era.  Nowadays, the algorithms to solve to be rewarded with BTC are so complicated and specialized, that both CPU and GPU mining for BTC will still consume 500+ watts of juice and not produce enough BTC to even cover the electric costs. 

There's an email in my son's drafts folder, apologizing to the landlord for driving up the power bill 30% one month with his miner.

Hmmm.  That's why there was a kill-a-watt meter in with his stuff....

Quote
As a stand-alone rig, they don't make much sense.  BTC nowadays requires dozens of gigahashes to be lucrative.  Lee N. Field has a Butterfly Labs solution that produces (if I recall correctly) 6 Ghash/sec, and it's barely worth the power to leave on.  That's because you have to power the computer that then powers the Butterfly Labs device that connects to it via USB.

Power draw is minimal.  It's plugged into a netbook that doesn't draw much.  In almost 2 months it's generated ~.32 bitcoins.  I'd say that's worth it. 

I'm just going to let it accumulate, and see where things are with bitcoin hardware in a few months.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2013, 10:14:49 PM »
Ben,

By way of explanation, there are only a finite number of BitCoin that are available to miners, regardless of what their exchange rate is vs. the dollar.

As the remaining available BitCoin wait to be mined, the ease at which they can be mined has become exponentially more difficult, by design.

Years ago, at the advent of the cryptocurrency, a Pentium CPU could crank out BitCoin frequently.  Later on, the process moved on to video card GPUs.

Now, you need specialized rigs, either FPGA or ASIC purpose-built processors, to eke out those harder-to-mine BitCoins.

Running a CPU or GPU rig to mine BitCoin now would not be cost-effective compared to the energy consumed in doing so.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2013, 10:19:19 PM »
While it's "wasting" energy, it is also heating your basement (offsetting your gas bill) -- in the winter anyway.  You need to take that into account.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2013, 10:22:04 PM »
That's a slight offset, comparing the cost of electric vs. natural gas heating...

(Thing 1 and Thing 2 living in my basement are always leaving their water-cooled IBM workstations on, I am constantly reminding them that the utility bill is cheaper when we heat with natural gas!)
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Ben

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2013, 11:07:17 PM »
Ben,

By way of explanation, there are only a finite number of BitCoin that are available to miners, regardless of what their exchange rate is vs. the dollar.

As the remaining available BitCoin wait to be mined, the ease at which they can be mined has become exponentially more difficult, by design.

Years ago, at the advent of the cryptocurrency, a Pentium CPU could crank out BitCoin frequently.  Later on, the process moved on to video card GPUs.

Now, you need specialized rigs, either FPGA or ASIC purpose-built processors, to eke out those harder-to-mine BitCoins.

Running a CPU or GPU rig to mine BitCoin now would not be cost-effective compared to the energy consumed in doing so.

Ah, thank you G98. That kinda blows my stock market analogy all to hell.  :laugh:

I did not know it was based on a finite number.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2013, 04:44:45 AM »
Ah, thank you G98. That kinda blows my stock market analogy all to hell.  :laugh:

I did not know it was based on a finite number.

The BitCoin blockchain is written to allow a total of 21 million BTC to exist at the end of all mining.

The LiteCoin blockchain is written to allow a total of 84 million LTC to exist at the end of all mining.

So LTC is 4x greater volume than BTC.  Eventually, LTC will move to ASIC or other specialized hardware... but for now it can be mined on a modern GPU.  But, we see a 30:1 ratio for LTC:BTC.  I think it's undervalued right now, hence my interest in mining it.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2013, 04:46:28 AM »
While it's "wasting" energy, it is also heating your basement (offsetting your gas bill) -- in the winter anyway.  You need to take that into account.

Ayup.  My house has electric heat, so the PC chugging out heat-watts is fine with me.  It's helping stabilize the temperature of my brewing projects right now, keeping that room from dropping too cold in the evenings.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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Blakenzy

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2013, 10:21:10 AM »
I need a CPU cooler for mine. Not sure that fan-thingy that comes in the intel chip box counts as one.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2013, 09:56:01 PM »
So, for pure grins and giggles, I set up just about every computing device in my house to mine LiteCoin today.

1. AMD triple core with Nvidia 8600 GT.  Win7. Total net: about 16-20 khash.
2. Asus R500A laptop, CPU only.  Intel i5.  Win7. Total net: about 18 khash.
3. Asus A73E laptop, CPU only.  Intel i5.  Win7. Total net: about 17 khash.
4. AMD single core 3000mhz 64-bit, CPU only.  Ubuntu 12.04, runlevel 3.  2 khash.
5. Lenovo Thinkpad T500, CPU only.  Intel Centrino.  Win7. Total net: about 12 khash.
6. Asus Transformer Android tablet. dual-core ARM. Total net: about 2 khash.
7. Cheap chinese android tablet.  Single-core ARM.  Total net: about 0.6 khash.
8. My old android cell phone from sprint.  Dual-core ARM.  Total net: about 1.5 khash.
9. My current android cell phone from AT&T.  Dual-core ARM.  Total net: about 2.5 khash.



I found that if I have a computer with N cores (N being > 2), I get best performance if I configure the CPU miner to run N-1 threads.  Running the same amount of threads as cores results in about a 15% khash penalty since no resources remain to query for the next batch.

I saw someone get on to my pool today, generating 45,000+ khash.  That is 20+ computers populated with 4 x Radeon 7900 series cards or equivalent.  Each computer is probably using 750-1000 watts.  However, he had a terrible config and was generating nearly 100% stale shares.  Probably a screwed up stratum config.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!

zxcvbob

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2013, 10:17:14 PM »
I have an 8-core Xeon server running 64-bit Linux.  (there was a thread about it IIRC last April) It crunches worldcommunitygrid workloads during the winter and helps warm my basement.   ;/  I keep it powered-off during warm weather.
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cordex

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Re: Updating the PC
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2013, 05:57:46 PM »
Interesting.  I'm not having any luck getting a GPU miner working, but CPU mining on a couple of hot-standby servers yields 93kh/s.