Author Topic: Tell me about a "West Point" education.  (Read 7811 times)

Ezekiel

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2007, 05:44:14 AM »
You don't seem to mind your state.  Smiley

It's obvious who's been brainwashed.
Zeke

Perd Hapley

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2007, 06:08:51 AM »
 I know you are, but what am I? 
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roo_ster

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2007, 06:19:15 AM »
I'm merely pointing out that the majority of information I've found -- I was quite curious -- indicates that you are, decidedly, unallowed to think during your first year, that there is a strict caste system, individual thought is verboten and adherence to a rigid/inflexible "code" is the norm.

Hence:

1. Indoctrination.
2. Automatons.
3. Brainwashed.
4. Subserviant.

Merely a single point of view.

Thought
You can think whatever you want.  Saying whatever you want is restricted, but then, most civilian places of work have speech restrictions, too.

Oddly enough, an officer in my unit was also a fan of Ayn Rand's fiction.  We would swap Rand paperbacks when on deployment & discuss them.  No problem with libertarian thought and speech at my unit.

Caste
There is a caste system, but folks are free to move around in it, given their drive & ability.  I knew plenty of mustangs (officers who had once been enlisted) during my time in service.  Thye are usually highly thought of due to their high level of competence.

Similar systems exist in some civilian organizations.  Labor vs management in a union shop being just one example.

Humans organize their organizations to suit their purposes.  Sometimes an explicit hierarchy is what is needed.

Indoctrination
Yep, plenty of that.  Like they say, "You're in the Army now, you're not behind a plow..."  I also recall indoctrination when I first went to college and at my first corporate job.  Thye armed services' indoctrination is quite a bit more rigorous, no doubt.

Brainwashed Automaton
The most intensive brainwashing* I have been subject to was not in the service, but at the university.  All incoming freshmen were required to spend a week on "Orientation" and suck up lefty-loonie indoctrination & brainwashing.  All the PC & postmodernist baloney was trotted out the THE proper viewpoint.  All very serious.  All very humor-less.

The Army's efforts to turn me into a killer were sometimes laughter-inducing.  Where else can you sling a rifle & bayonet & holler "kill" at the top of your lungs with 120 other folks?  Then, you get to run through an obstacle course with a fake** rifle & real bayonet, hollering at the top of your lungs, bayonetting targets while your drill sgts set off arty simulators & urge you on.  What a hoot.  When I am at Home Depot & some guy asks a HD employer, "What will make my grass grow greener?" I must suppress a giggle.

There was a deadly serious purpose behind the training, but a thinking being can see the humor (sometimes black) in it, most of the time.

Subserviant
Unless you are a hermit, you wil always be part of some human organization with folks above & below you.  Even orgs that explicitly try to be egalitarian have a pecking order.  It is part of being a human.
 

------------

Ezekiel, fistful has made a solid point.  You have swallowed a line of bull and have placed your ignorance and indoctrination on display for all to see.  A little time in the service would have done you a world of good in opening your mind to different ideas and provided depth to your critique of the armed services.




* Brainwashing is a mildly pathetic term used by most who do not understand its true meaning and use it as a substitute for other, lesser ,conditioning techniques.

** Called a "Rubber Duckie."  The bayonet course was rigorous enough to cause us to break our rifles, so we used the rubber duckies, instead.
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roo_ster

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Ezekiel

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2007, 06:34:18 AM »
Quote
Ezekiel, fistful has made a solid point.

Seriously, what would that be?

Quote
You have swallowed a line of bull and have placed your ignorance and indoctrination on display for all to see.

I would -- vehemently -- argue that the reciprocal is true.

Quote
A little time in the service would have done you a world of good...

Respectfully, "I don't think so."  However, I grant your point that I would have a deeper understanding of that particular inherently screwed up bureaucracy.  I prefer gathering information using other tools.

Thanks.
Zeke

Gewehr98

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2007, 09:48:51 AM »
Quote
1. Indoctrination.
2. Automatons.
3. Brainwashed.
4. Subserviant.

"If you go for that..."

Nice.  Really nice.

(Oops, gotta go, just washed my brain again and can't do a darned thing with it...)

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2007, 09:57:08 AM »
Quote
When I am at Home Depot & some guy asks a HD employer, "What will make my grass grow greener?" I must suppress a giggle.

BLOOD!  BLOOD!  BRIGHT RED BLOOD MAKES THE GREEN GRASS GROW, DRILL SERGEANT! 

That brain-washing sure works good.   laugh 
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wingnutx

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2007, 10:11:42 AM »
Interesting too, in that a butterbar who doesn't pay attention to his seasoned NCOs will rarely advance. Hey, the same sorta situation exists in civilian life... How many situations are there where "management" actually knows how to do all the "floor" tasks? Not too many... New guys generally get thrown in, and get told to stay outta the way of the people who know what they're doing...

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thebaldguy

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2007, 03:58:23 PM »
I remember reading once that West Point is a $200,000.00 education shoved up your butt a quarter at a time.


Perd Hapley

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2007, 05:27:59 AM »
Quote
I knew plenty of mustangs (officers who had once been enlisted) during my time in service.  Thye are usually highly thought of due to their high level of competence.

They are also thought of as being very hard-nosed, like an NCO, no surprise.  The downside is that they are also prone to micro-management.  Again, that would be expected.
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wingnutx

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2007, 06:48:01 AM »
People who agree with me are obviously free-thinkers with fine analytical skills.

People who disagree with me are brainwashed.


roo_ster

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2007, 07:04:37 AM »
wingnutx:

So true, so ture...  laugh
Regards,

roo_ster

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Balog

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2007, 07:25:00 AM »
The problem isn't that all officers are medal hungry pricks who only care about advancing their careers. It's that the other officers have a marked proclivity to turn a blind eye towards the ones who are. I realize that on my deployment only two people were killed and three seriously wounded (that I know of) because of direct stupidity/arrogance on the part of officers; hell, only one of 'em was even my friend. But the fact that no one seemed to care still pisses me off.

I know it's naive, but I wish the Universal part of the UCMJ were applied more often. In the couple years I've been in I've seen: a Lt get a DUI (no military charges pressed), a newly promoted GySgt lose a M9 because he disregarded SOP and didn't use a lanyard (lost his billet as head of the comm shop for six months, no charges), a SSgt openly take steroids in Iraq (just pretend it never happened), when we got back the same SSgt beat the *expletive deleted*it out of a boot Pfc (covered up, no charges), a GySgt responsible for providing water to a platoon training in full gear in the middle of summer do such a poor job that 16 Marines were heat casualties with one so bad he had to be air lifted to the hospital (no charges, no loss of billet), a 1stSgt who was chewing out a Marine with really severe PTSD pull out a knife put it on his desk and literally dare the Marine to try and kill him (no repercussions). Hell, I could go on but I think ya'll get the point. Meanwhile, a Lcpl files a travel itinerary for pre-deployment leave with a typo in the flight number (charged with "falsifying a .gov document", lost rank), a Lcpl puts his rifle down and walks ~20 feet away on a working party (charged with a couple things, lost rank).... ok, I'm getting really depressed listing it all out like this so I'm gonna stop.
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Ezekiel

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2007, 07:47:14 AM »
Enjoy poor strategic leadership, clustered bureaucracy and industrial, "lowest common denominator," inertia: the biggest and baddest of which are represented by our government and our military.  Sad

"Protect the instution...Protect the institution...Protect the instution...Protect the institution...Protect the instution...Protect the institution...Protect the instution...Protect the institution...Protect the instution...Protect the institution...Protect the instution...Protect the institution..."

[repeat ad infinitum]
Zeke

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2007, 08:24:25 AM »
Balog, you are not describing the MArine Corps I know and love. Either it has changed greatly in the time I have been out, or an unbelieveable number of the f---ups somehow got clustered together where you were.

Ezekiel, you obviously don't know a damn thing about the military other than what you've heard.
D. R. ZINN

wingnutx

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2007, 08:39:13 AM »
There are commands that are great, and there are commands that are all clustered up.

I've been in both, and I've seen a command go from one to the other, both ways.


Ezekiel

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2007, 08:57:05 AM »
Or borne witness to.  "Whatever."

Your opinion is, respectfully, noted.

Quote
Ezekiel, you obviously don't know a damn thing about the military other than what you've heard.
Zeke

doczinn

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2007, 09:35:45 AM »
Quote
There are commands that are great, and there are commands that are all clustered up.

I've been in both, and I've seen a command go from one to the other, both ways.
I've seen both, but the worst I ever saw wasn't as bad as what Balog is describing.

I'm avoiding questioning his perception, but it's pretty hard to believe.
D. R. ZINN

Ezekiel

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2007, 09:44:41 AM »
"I see your point."

It is, however, radically close to the sorts of experiences related to me by active-duty folk in a variety of locales.

Sort of makes one doubt the efficacy of the machine, you know?  Sad

I've seen both, but the worst I ever saw wasn't as bad as what Balog is describing.
Zeke

Perd Hapley

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2007, 09:51:44 AM »
Quote
Sort of makes one doubt the efficacy of the machine, you know?
Ya know, it IS a govt. operation.  Zeke, I'd really like to see you design a military that works better. 
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wingnutx

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2007, 10:06:12 AM »


It is, however, radically close to the sorts of experiences related to me by active-duty folk in a variety of locales.

Sort of makes one doubt the efficacy of the machine, you know?  Sad


Just as the news never reports that x number of cars made it safely home, no one is ever going to tell you about when things went smoothly at their command. They are going to tell you about the things that are all jacked up.


Ezekiel

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2007, 11:13:02 AM »
We could start with missions that have strategic efficacy.

Even equally poor attempts at such a goal would be a significant improvement.

Quote from: fistful
Zeke, I'd really like to see you design a military that works better.
Zeke

Perd Hapley

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2007, 11:17:54 AM »
Changing the subject I see.
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Ezekiel

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2007, 11:20:31 AM »
Not on purpose.

If you desire to go "structural," we can: but efficacy would be dramatically increased by actually attempting something with strategic value.

Changing the subject, are we?
Zeke

Perd Hapley

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Re: Tell me about a "West Point" education.
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2007, 11:25:09 AM »
OK.  But that's not up to the military, is it?  That is, they don't choose the missions.
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