Author Topic: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification  (Read 52044 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #150 on: August 22, 2008, 04:51:15 PM »
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Go ahead C&S Daddy and make sure to roll out your ubiquitous, inane references to Heroes of the Revolution - it'll just help make my point for me.

And Ron Paul. He always brings up Ron Paul.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #151 on: August 22, 2008, 05:05:31 PM »
Well, taking my own second look through the thread, I decided it was time to find out, for myself, both sides of the story. I feel that there is no battle to be won here, as both sides of this arguement seem fairly deep-rooted. My only hope is that certain feelings expressed are not severely contagious, or irreversible in the long-term. However, these make for a good read, if nothing else:

Judge William Young's memorandum (PDF reader required. I'd post it for those who may not have a .pdf reader, but it is about 40 pages long): http://pacer.mad.uscourts.gov/dc/cgi-bin/recentops.pl?filename=young/pdf/luisi%20memorandum.pdf

Juror No. 2's rebuttal of the judge's memorandum with an alternate recollection of the proceedings:
http://dangeroustalkblog.blogspot.com/

The proceedings according to Thomas R. Eddlem, and defense of his actions during deliberation (the 'problem juror,' or 'juror no. 2.'): http://www.lewrockwell.com/eddlem/eddlem20.html

Opinionated: Thomas R. Eddlem's follow-up essay on the condition of the the justice system in the United States (this is, I suppose, the "soapbox" so many here have claimed he stood on in court, but he didn't publish this until after the event): http://www.lewrockwell.com/eddlem/eddlem24.html

My disclaimer: Yes, I acknowledge that some of these links go to what some here may consider 'revolution wookie' sites. I also understand that CNN, Fox, and MSNBC are very unlikely to pick up on this story, as it does nothing for ratings (it falls a bit short of the glory of Hollywood garbage). This does not invalidate the credibility of the authors nor their documents. The essays/memorandum are, for the most part, well written in that they contain both accounts of the proceedings (though, at forty-something pages, Judge Young's version is somewhat longer). Click on them and read them, or don't. It won't hurt my feelings. But if you do read them, make sure you don't have anything breakable near your person. Not far into my reading of Young's memorandum, I wanted to throw my keyboard across the room (admittedly, I could not read all of it in one sitting, and maybe I will finish it when my blood pressure has returned to normal levels). [Pure-blooded Americans beware.]

Interestingly enough, Eddlem (Juror No. 2) defends against accusations that he even attempted to engage in "jury nullification." Yet, I am compelled to believe he would have been right even if he had done so.

My secondary disclaimer: Despite my best attempts, I was unable to find an official transcript of "United States vs. Robert Luisi." There could be any number of reasons for this. The transcript may still not have been uploaded/leaked to the internet. It is also possible that, because of all the 'problems', an entirely new proceeding (and therefore a new transcript) may have been required. But, I don't know how that works.

I do plan to read finish reading Young's memorandum (at least for informative purposes), but given the parts that I have read, and taking into consideration its length, there is now little doubt in my mind that someone in the courtroom may have been standing on a soapbox.

Consider this post my concession to a draw.


cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #152 on: August 22, 2008, 05:07:27 PM »
lol  both are so prolific here   and such easy targets   i should stop  its not really sporting
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #153 on: August 22, 2008, 05:19:47 PM »
Yes, I acknowledge that some of these links go to what some here may consider 'revolution wookie' sites

understatement
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #154 on: August 22, 2008, 05:25:15 PM »
Then I also take it to assume that you didn't read any of them. I'm done wasting my time with you.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #155 on: August 22, 2008, 05:30:22 PM »
i'm still trying toopen the judges deal i read the young mans stuff even went and searched and read some other stuff hes written..just got os reloaded soi'm having pdf trouble. the juror isn't the wackjob i expected. just young.

you wanna real giggle? i've actually voted libertarian in a presidential election. course vthat was when they were sane enough to get on a real ballot. before you were born. and before they were coopted by the nutters
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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DJJ

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #156 on: August 23, 2008, 01:59:37 PM »
I think I know why c&s' daddy is so opposed to jury nullification: He didn't get any when he was on trial.  grin

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #157 on: August 23, 2008, 02:52:15 PM »
i've never been tryed... unless you count traffic tickets. only fought 2 and beat em both. if the cops could catch me i had a distinctly non revolutionary philosophy.i owned up to what i did. and while i hate to assault the pillars of "le cause but when i did i got remarkable breaks given me by the oppressors... er i mean court.   
  how about you djj? have bad luck " bucking the man?" tough showing the shining path to the statists? 
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Telperion

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #158 on: August 23, 2008, 03:37:35 PM »
Never been tried, really?  Then how did you land yourself in prison as you've bragged about before?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #159 on: August 23, 2008, 03:46:36 PM »
plead guilty.  no trial    i know its not very revolutionary of me but i really didn't like what i did. a bunch. hated living on the run. and in spite of the current wisdom/philosophy i actually felt relieved to get it over with . there is some truth to confession is good for the soul. cost me a dcouple years but its a most remarkable country we live in.  once i paid my debt i've found the world to be quite willing to let me do whatever i want. lifes pretty sweet. i do wish i had all that cash i blew getting high  i'd be very comfortably retired. ah well the wages of sin
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

DJJ

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #160 on: August 23, 2008, 05:18:03 PM »
 
  how about you djj? have bad luck " bucking the man?" tough showing the shining path to the statists? 

Got one speeding ticket on the record right now. Other than that, the only time I've been fingerprinted was for my CCW. As far as showing the shining path, I consider it my civic duty. angel

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #161 on: August 23, 2008, 05:39:48 PM »
sounds like mr kiefer in the movie mr roberts  remember fred mcmurrays role?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #162 on: August 24, 2008, 11:29:14 AM »
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cost me a dcouple years but its a most remarkable country we live in.  once i paid my debt i've found the world to be quite willing to let me do whatever i want.

Including owning a gun Huh?

Or are you just here for the great companionship?  grin
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #163 on: August 24, 2008, 11:36:02 AM »
va has in the last decade made the restoration process easy enough.  there are even groups who will help fill out the paperwork and otherwise help you navigate the legal process. more remarkably the democratic governors are easy to work with in that regard.  truth be know when i livrd in dc i waqs of the better judged by 12 than buried by 6 persuasion.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #164 on: August 24, 2008, 06:55:31 PM »
To be honest, I don't think anyobdy in the LP is particularly insane.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

De Selby

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #165 on: August 24, 2008, 07:03:07 PM »
To be honest, I don't think anyobdy in the LP is particularly insane.

There is a guy who drank silver nitrate and turned himself blue-I don't know what his policy stances were, but most Americans will assume you're insane if you look like an X-Men character.

One major problem I have with nullification and judiciary-based freedom protection in general is that it breeds laziness-we shouldn't be relying on the lone juror to undo oppressive drug laws, or the group of judges to undo invasions of privacy and property.

Organization and effective political activity of every sort, aimed at elected representatives, beats any other remedy hands down.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

richyoung

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #166 on: August 25, 2008, 04:29:31 AM »
To be honest, I don't think anyobdy in the LP is particularly insane.

There is a guy who drank silver nitrate and turned himself blue-I don't know what his policy stances were, but most Americans will assume you're insane if you look like an X-Men character.

One major problem I have with nullification and judiciary-based freedom protection in general is that it breeds laziness-we shouldn't be relying on the lone juror to undo oppressive drug laws, or the group of judges to undo invasions of privacy and property.

Organization and effective political activity of every sort, aimed at elected representatives, beats any other remedy hands down.

We shouldn't be relying on the mechanical safety features of a firearm... but we still engage them, when appropriate. 
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #167 on: August 25, 2008, 04:39:05 AM »
To be honest, I don't think anyobdy in the LP is particularly insane.

no one?  not even one?! lol   quite remarkable
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Tallpine

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #168 on: August 25, 2008, 05:03:04 AM »
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane  grin
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

roo_ster

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #169 on: August 25, 2008, 05:55:26 AM »
To be honest, I don't think anyobdy in the LP is particularly insane.

There is a guy who drank silver nitrate and turned himself blue-I don't know what his policy stances were, but most Americans will assume you're insane if you look like an X-Men character.

Yep, that ranks up there with the wookie costume, though I would pay a $1 to see blue-boy in the flesh.
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Werewolf

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #170 on: August 25, 2008, 09:28:16 AM »
...Organization and effective political activity of every sort, aimed at elected representatives, beats any other remedy hands down.

In the long run, true. In the short run however it does nothing to help nor protect the individual subjected to unfair and unjust law.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #171 on: August 25, 2008, 09:32:55 AM »
do you feel this case was unjust?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

richyoung

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #172 on: August 25, 2008, 12:28:02 PM »
do you feel this case was unjust?


If there is no ammendmant granting the federal level of government the same power over drugs that the Volmstead ammendmant gave it over alcohol, then the answer is - YES.  The government is not allowed or entitled to empower itself, Lincoln's, Roosevelt's, and anyone elses's opinion otherwise be damned.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #173 on: August 25, 2008, 12:30:11 PM »
dxo you feel the man on trial wasn't aware of the law the penalties and didn't make a choice to go for big bucks even with full knowledge of those consequences?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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richyoung

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Re: Unacceptable: Judge nullifies juror nullification
« Reply #174 on: August 25, 2008, 12:44:04 PM »
dxo you feel the man on trial wasn't aware of the law the penalties and didn't make a choice to go for big bucks even with full knowledge of those consequences?

A law in contravention to the limits of Federal power in the constituion - ISN'T.  Just as ignorance of the law is not an excuse, it neither makes one guilty.  Either the fed has the authority - or it does not.  The defendant's knowledge or lack thereof is not at issue.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...