Author Topic: Maybe it IS time for the tinfoil.....  (Read 3409 times)

erik the bold

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Maybe it IS time for the tinfoil.....
« on: March 04, 2006, 04:35:24 AM »
Radar Didn't Get Her; Radiation Did
March 3, 2006
By TRACY GORDON FOX, Courant Staff Writer

Link: http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-radiation0303.artmar03,0,1642015.story?coll=hc-headlines-home
 
The large, black SUV passed the woman on the left, abruptly slowed down, and then dropped behind her. Suddenly, flashing red and blue lights lit up her rearview mirror.

"Ma'am, you were pulled over because you set off a nuclear radioactive alarm," a man dressed in a blue jumpsuit-type uniform and a baseball cap said in a monotone.

It sounds like a scene from the movie "Men in Black." A select group of state troopers and inspectors from the state Department of Motor Vehicles now wear ultra-sensitive, portable radiation detectors on their belts to check for dangerous materials inside large trucks.

But the 45-year-old Suffield woman wasn't hauling nuclear waste. She had been injected with a radioactive substance for a common medical test.

Relieved to have completed a series of stress tests on her heart on Feb. 23, the woman was heading home, seatbelt on, and cruising at the 65 mph speed limit on I-91 north.

Inspectors in the SUV were on a routine assignment when the device started beeping and they homed in on the woman's car.

The woman, who asked not to be identified, wasn't angry about being stopped, nor particularly inconvenienced, but baffled as to how police detected radiation from a substance injected into her body hours earlier.

The pager-size devices are so new to Connecticut law enforcement that even state homeland security officials and top state police were at first perplexed by the woman's story.

"I've never heard of this being done in my entire life," James Thomas, commissioner of the state Office of Emergency Management and Homeland Security, said Wednesday. On Thursday, he called Public Safety Commissioner Leonard C. Boyle, who also did not know that radiation could be detected in a moving vehicle.

"I was surprised and did not expect that these devices could detect radiological activity in a moving car," Boyle said. Both men said they knew that radiation testing is regularly done at truck stops.

Edward Wilds, director for the division of radiation at the state Department of Environmental Protection, solved the mystery.

Wilds said Thursday that he was consulted on the purchase of the device. He said DEP workers have carried them for a while to detect radiation at scenes involving biological hazards. The state purchased 50 of the "radiological pagers," dividing them between the state police and the DMV, said Bill Seymour, a DMV spokesman.

Seymour confirmed Thursday that a motor vehicle inspector pulled over the woman.

"When these things go off, they have an obligation to check it out," he said.

Seymour said the inspector, who has full police powers, identified himself as being from the DMV and that his truck was marked with the agency's insignia.

"These are very sensitive devices," Seymour said, adding that some officers have reported them going off in buildings "because someone in the next room on the other side of the wall had a stress test."

Doctors said they have heard of radiation sensors going off at nuclear plants after patients have had stress tests, but not along highways.

"It is certainly conceivable," said Dr. Bernard Clark, chairman of the department of medicine and associate chief of cardiology at St. Francis Hospital and Medical Center in Hartford. "The glass and steel of a car wouldn't stop it, if they have an extremely sensitive indicator or detector."

In stress tests, which monitor a patient's heart at rest and during activity, technetium and Cardiolite are injected. Cardiolite is a substance that helps move technetium, a radioactive isotope, to the heart muscle, allowing doctors to look at how the blood flows to it, Clark said. The substance has a half-life of about six hours, and then starts to dissipate, he said.

"These are very safe agents," he said, adding that they are also used to scan other organs.

The woman said she quickly explained to the officer that she had just undergone a medical procedure that involved a radioactive substance. She had to sign a bunch of forms that explained the risks.

The officer seemed satisfied by her answer, and said, " `That's usually what it is,' " she said. He asked for her license and registration, and returned to her car a short time later.

"Nobody at my doctor's office warned me this could happen," the woman said she told the officer. "He said, `That's because they don't know.' "

She drove home and called her husband, who works for the state, telling him her strange story. Although she is glad someone is monitoring radioactivity in the state, the woman said she feels a little violated.

"I was pulled over because of something in my bloodstream," she said. "There are [federal privacy laws], and I pretty much had to tell him I had a medical test. I was going to say, `none of your business why I'm radioactive.' But that wouldn't have gotten me that far."

Clark said he assumes there will be a higher level of vigilance for radioactive material in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

"You figure on the interstate highways people are going to ship things that shouldn't be shipped," the doctor said. "Most people aren't radioactive. If they are, you'd probably want to know why. Are you carrying weapons grade plutonium, or did you just get a stress test?"
"Belief" is the acceptance of a hypothesis in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

NOTICE: Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot.
BY ORDER OF THE AUTHOR

K Frame

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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2006, 05:02:00 AM »
So......

What would a tin foil hat do for you in this situation?
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2006, 05:36:42 AM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
So......

What would a tin foil hat do for you in this situation?
Don't know, but if I was in that situation, I would be asking for an ID, a badge number, a phone number to call and verify the veracity of the officer AND his right to stop me before I went beyond cracking the window down more than a half inch and before answering ANY questions or cooperating.

But, that's just me.

onions!

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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2006, 06:11:35 AM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
So......

What would a tin foil hat do for you in this situation?
Well duh,you could focus the radiation into a Godzilla death ray!


Actually my first thought was wonderment about whether or not the Radium in an old watch would set the detector off.

Followed by wondering how much lead shielding my truck can carry before collapse.

Frickin busybodies.

K Frame

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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2006, 06:57:22 AM »
"Frickin busybodies."

You know, I've REALLY got to disagree with that assessment.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

erik the bold

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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2006, 07:21:25 AM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
So......

What would a tin foil hat do for you in this situation?
I was thinking more along the lines of complete coverage with the tinfoil....... Lead is just too heavy.
"Belief" is the acceptance of a hypothesis in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

NOTICE: Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot.
BY ORDER OF THE AUTHOR

280plus

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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2006, 07:27:09 AM »
Only in Connecticut... rolleyes

I love my state!

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Nathaniel Firethorn

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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2006, 07:58:14 AM »
What it if had been some Jose Padilla knockoff transporting a dirty bomb?

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280plus

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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2006, 08:22:06 AM »
My guess is he'd blow if off on the spot if he thought he was caught, which means 280 wouldn't be using I-91 for a while. shocked

Honestly, on I-91 the traffic moves at 80 in a 65 with plenty of folks doing 90+. Then theres the Merrit (Rt 15) a 55 mph zone where people drive about the same speed 80+, emphasis on the +. Noone ever gets stopped. Yet here's some lady tooling down the road with some residual radiation from a medical test sets off some monitor and she gets swarmed. Yup, that's my tax dollar being well spent alright.

Good to know they're out there though. I'll make sure and leave my radioactive stockpile at home.
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onions!

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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2006, 09:07:13 AM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
"Frickin busybodies."

You know, I've REALLY got to disagree with that assessment.
Why?It wasn't directed at you.

If it came accross that way then I apologize.

I intended it towards those that feel obligated to stick their noses into other peoples business because they can.
A similar example would be when the local PD,w/some Troopers assistance,deceides to block all the traffic on a local main artery for hours so that they can do a "seatbelt use check".& before you go & start saying apples 'n'oranges think a minute.You choose to live in an area that's full of important people & important stuff.Maybe you think that increased,alleged,security is worth giving up a little of your personal autonomy.

I don't.

If some whackjobs want to blow something up then,sooner or later,they will.

About those dectectors now,it seems to me that if they can be made to detect the radiation flowing through a body twenty feet away then why can't they be made to check total radiation volume?Picture 500 guys in a row.One has some plutonium in his pocket & they are all coming from the Radiologist.Are you going to check each & every one?

Harold Tuttle

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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2006, 09:11:02 AM »
one would think a system that sensitive would be prone to so many false hits that the operators would get quite jaded

i wonder what my collection of americanium powered smoke detectors would ping
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K Frame

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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2006, 10:34:42 AM »
"Why?It wasn't directed at you."

I know it wasn't directed at me.

"I intended it towards those that feel obligated to stick their noses into other peoples business because they can."

Ah. You're like a guy I know who I used to work with. He disagrees with ALL aspects of pre-emptive detection of biological, radiological, chemical, or explosive detection.

His motto is, largely, "I'd rather see 500,000 Americans dead at the hands of a terrorist than give one iota of power to a single agent of the government.


You're right, some whack job will blow something up sooner or later by escaping detection. That's fantastic reason for dropping all efforts at detection, including passive ones.

Ya may be dead, but at least its a pure, not inconvenienced by an agent of the government kind of dead.
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280plus

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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2006, 11:31:41 AM »
Quote
one would think a system that sensitive would be prone to so many false hits that the operators would get quite jaded
My thoughts exactly.

They'll just be wasting a lot of time, manpower and money on false hits.

I wonder if, after a while, there'll be a rise in the number of these monitors that have, for example, "accidentally"fallen into the toilet?  Wink
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onions!

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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2006, 06:21:19 PM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
"Why?It wasn't directed at you."

I know it wasn't directed at me.

"I intended it towards those that feel obligated to stick their noses into other peoples business because they can."

Ah. You're like a guy I know who I used to work with. He disagrees with ALL aspects of pre-emptive detection of biological, radiological, chemical, or explosive detection.

His motto is, largely, "I'd rather see 500,000 Americans dead at the hands of a terrorist than give one iota of power to a single agent of the government.


You're right, some whack job will blow something up sooner or later by escaping detection. That's fantastic reason for dropping all efforts at detection, including passive ones.

Ya may be dead, but at least its a pure, not inconvenienced by an agent of the government kind of dead.
Whatever.

If you look forward to waiting in line so that you can show your travel papers to a government official-well then I'm happy for you.Really.I hope that it makes you feel all warm & safe.

If the Government can actually have built efficient,passive sensors for nuclear & biological threats fine.It makes more sense to me though,to wait to distribute them until they work as intended-quickly,efficiently,& with all the variables taken into account.

And you are correct.I'm one of those guys that IS irritated when I'm inconvienienced because someone doesn't actually read my post.I never said that efforts at radiation detection should be stopped.I merely speculated about just how sensitive they really are.Don't attempt to put words into my mouth.

One more thing.Apparently in CT the DMV has inspectors w/full police powers(acording to that article).In MI,the DMV has the power to require you to wait in line for up to an hour,to have to pay an exorbint amount of money for plate renewal,& to make it to a rather surly person to boot.Couple that w/the fact that the money flows to the other side of the state to support the cronies of the Govenor & well,I don't like that either.(look up US131 extension if you want more details)

I also don't like that my property tax assessment went up another 8-9%.& that the local government was trying to figure out which services to cut.Hey maybe that's it!Sure!It must be that my local tax dollars are being funneled to Va to make grumpy,tunnell visioned guys feel safe!Well that makes it all O.K. then.Whew!

Headless Thompson Gunner

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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2006, 06:33:15 PM »
Would tritium gun sights set off one of these detectors?

Matthew Carberry

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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2006, 12:09:53 PM »
41mag,

This wasn't a random roadblock or badge heavy "I don't like the way you look" stop.  

A sworn law enforcement officer got what, in a court of law, would likely meet far more than the "reasonable suspicion" that radioactive materials were being transported in a non-official vehicle with no notification of local LE (something that, much like speeding or failing to stay inside a lane, I want my cops checking on) and pulled the vehicle over to investigate.  

Nothing was found and the driver was sent on her way without any negative actions being taken.

This wasn't a "police state roust", it was a non-invasive use of technology (however accidental) to detect something that is, or probably shouldn't be, legal (possession of x-amount of nuclear material without some kind of certification) given the state of weapons technology and the threats that exist today.

If they need to tune the detectors or something to prevent false postives they should, but this use of one wasn't invasive or overly sweeping, only the driver that "dinged" got impacted in any way and even then her trip was only interrupted AFTER the detector went off, she wasn't "roadblocked" while they checked every car.
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2006, 01:39:41 PM »
Legally speaking, if the radiation is detectable outside of the vehicle, then it is in public space, and not subject to privacy. Its like if you walk past a car and smell people smoking grass.

Of course, the big difference is that there is nothing illegal (yet) about being radioactive. I do think that it is PC for a stop, and it seems like the authorites were pretty well behaved about the whole thing. It certainly doesnt bode particularly well for the brave new world, but I dont think this is a really significant development all on it's own.

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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2006, 02:08:25 PM »
Not tinfoil-leadfoil.

   I wonder if a truckload of smoke detectors will set it off?  Probably not.   Americium is an alpha emitter, and would be stopped by a car door.  Technicium wasn't, so it must emit beta or higher energy.  Finding alpha-emitting radioactives would mean opening every container.  

Interesting.
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TarpleyG

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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2006, 03:10:31 PM »
Quote
one would think a system that sensitive would be prone to so many false hits that the operators would get quite jaded

My thoughts exactly.

They'll just be wasting a lot of time, manpower and money on false hits.

I wonder if, after a while, there'll be a rise in the number of these monitors that have, for example, "accidentally"fallen into the toilet?
Man, I'm in trouble then.  I have tritium sights on my guns and all over the face of two of my watches.  Wonder if these devices are sensitive enough to detect these?

Greg

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« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2006, 06:25:00 AM »
It seems the radiation detectors are a wee bit too sensitive & unsophisticated for their intended use.  Kind of like a radar detector set on "highway" in the city.  Too many false positives to be much use.
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Harold Tuttle

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« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2006, 09:52:12 AM »
well, i have not been pulled over for my Tritium powered Luminox watch yet...
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
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He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

The Rabbi

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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2006, 03:45:35 AM »
In thinking about it (late I know) the story is bogus.  The amount of radioactive material used for medical tests is miniscule.  That much radiation probably could not penetrate clothing, much less the outside of a car.  And if the equipment were that sensitive there are a million things that could set it off (e.g. vintage radium watchesO and they would be stopping everyone.  I call bulloney.
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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2006, 04:04:20 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
In thinking about it (late I know) the story is bogus.  The amount of radioactive material used for medical tests is miniscule.  That much radiation probably could not penetrate clothing, much less the outside of a car.  And if the equipment were that sensitive there are a million things that could set it off (e.g. vintage radium watchesO and they would be stopping everyone.  I call bulloney.
Actually the amount isn't miniscule. I once had to get a gallium scan. My whole body dose was 2.5 REM. That's a lot (as a measur in the navy the limit per quarter for exposure for nuclear field folks is 1.25 Rem). The gamma levels have to be high enough to pass thru bone, tissue and skin and activate what ever recording sensor is in use. The average X-Ray exposes one to about 100 mrem and that's 10 times higher than background and easily detectable from a distance even with 50 year old geiger counter technology. The level of radiation leaving the body from any type of radioactive dye test is easily 100mrem and the gallium scan that I got it was considerably higher.

When I served as a nuclear reactor operator on subs in the USN the detectors we used were quite sensitive - hell just one or two gamma particles was enough to get a reading.

It is not inconceivable that gamma radiation detectors in a traveling vehicle would alarm on a passing motorist that was just a few hours away from being injected. (and it would have to be gamma because alpha and beta particles can't even penetrate skin).
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2006, 04:30:37 AM »
Dang, werewolf was a nuke? Impressive. I was an ex-nuke. Too young and dumb with other ideas at the time to make a real go of it. Wish I had another crack given what I know now. I was in the last class to go to Vallejo.
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« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2006, 09:17:05 AM »
Quote from: 280plus
Dang, werewolf was a nuke? Impressive. I was an ex-nuke. Too young and dumb with other ideas at the time to make a real go of it. Wish I had another crack given what I know now. I was in the last class to go to Vallejo.
I did my classroom at Orlando, FL and prototype at the S1C facility in Windsor, CT.

Cool Job - didn't even have to go to sub school though I wish I had. Served on USS Sandlance - SSN 660, mid to late 70's.

It's surprising sometimes when you find us. I had a young kid intern for me about 8 years ago. He turned out to be a nuke. We had a lot in common even though there was almost 15 years age difference. He ended up getting hired into my dept after he graduated based on my rec. A couple of months ago I got laid off and his rec got me hired about 3 weeks later into my current job.

Nukes are quality people - every where I've worked since I got out of the Navy the HR guys just seem to know that if one is an ex-Navy nuke that they've got a winner on their hands.
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