Author Topic: More worrying comments from Chavez  (Read 26848 times)

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2007, 06:07:15 AM »
Look, if Chavez goes much further, there'd be nothing wrong at all with a few wealthy individuals (or a few powerful generals) overthrowing him and holding new elections. When the "ends" are more liberty and more respect for rights, they sometimes justify pretty extreme means.
D. R. ZINN

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2007, 07:32:59 AM »
Yes! That's always what happens when a select group of wealthy and powerful people overthrow a democratic government: they hold elections again! And will, obviously, let the people elect whomever they choose, including Chavez again.


Right?





Right?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2007, 08:01:16 AM »
Please show me where I said that any time a government is overthrown, elections are then held.

And frankly, if the people were stupid enough to re-elect Chavez (which may or may not have actually happened), maybe they don't deserve democracy.

Yes, I said that. And I'm in good company, because our founding fathers had similar sentiments. That's why they built protections into our Constitution to make it damn difficult (they hoped impossible) for a dictator to arise.

If you have enough limits on Government, then it really doesn't matter who's in charge or how they got there, because they can't do anything to hurt you.

Of course, you have to be willing to back up those protections....
D. R. ZINN

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2007, 09:33:33 AM »
Quote
Please show me where I said that any time a government is overthrown, elections are then held.
So you agree, then, that when elected governments are overthrown, what follows is generally not an immediate democratic election?

Why, then, did you suggest that the outcome of 'removing' Chavez could be a "few wealthy individuals (or a few powerful generals) overthrowing him and holding new elections"?

Quote
And frankly, if the people were stupid enough to re-elect Chavez (which may or may not have actually happened), maybe they don't deserve democracy.

I think that says it all.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2007, 11:27:00 AM »
Quote
So you agree, then, that when elected governments are overthrown, what follows is generally not an immediate democratic election?
I never denied it.
Quote
Why, then, did you suggest that the outcome of 'removing' Chavez could be a "few wealthy individuals (or a few powerful generals) overthrowing him and holding new elections"?
It's one possible scenario, which I would be in favor of. On the other hand, if they instituted a comprehensive set of civil, political, and economic rights protections and said "To Hell with democracy," would that be so bad?

Give me an autocrat who leaves me alone over a democratically elected meddler who wants to hep any day.
D. R. ZINN

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2007, 11:54:42 AM »
Quote
It's one possible scenario, which I would be in favor of.
Are you in favor of leprechauns handing out pots of gold as well?

Quote
On the other hand, if they instituted a comprehensive set of civil, political, and economic rights protections and said "To Hell with democracy," would that be so bad?
Can you have "civil, political and economic rights" (I'll even skip adding scare quotes to economic) rights without democracy? If the people have no say in their state, how can there be and protections outside the whims of the dictator or ruling oligarchy?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2007, 12:04:33 PM »
Quote
Are you in favor of leprechauns handing out pots of gold as well?
Is it your position, then, that a coup cannot be followed by a free and fair election? Anyway, I've tried to make it clear that   what matters is not who decides, but what they decide.
D. R. ZINN

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2007, 12:57:58 PM »
Quote
Is it your position, then, that a coup cannot be followed by a free and fair election?
Is it my position that coups overthrowing governments with recent elections will not be followed by a "free and fair election"? Yes.

Quote
Anyway, I've tried to make it clear that   what matters is not who decides, but what they decide.
Except, by advocating that democracy be thrown by the wayside when it suits you, "who decides" is exactly what your concern is.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2007, 01:49:00 PM »
Quote
Is it my position that coups overthrowing governments with recent elections will not be followed by a "free and fair election"? Yes.
You may be trying to be clever, but that's not what I asked.

Quote
by advocating that democracy be thrown by the wayside when it suits you
Again you misrepresent my position. This gets tiresome.
D. R. ZINN

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2007, 02:26:52 PM »

Give me an autocrat who leaves me alone over a democratically elected meddler who wants to hep any day.

Except that, when the autocrat doesn't answer to you or anyone except his own circle of elites, what makes you think he's going to leave you alone?

If this imaginary "rights protecting coup" follows the Latin American pattern, it will mean substantial risk of you being tortured and killed simply because you aren't reliable enough for the dictator's tastes. 

I hate to point out the obvious, but military coups resulting in autocrats virtually never result in a government that just leaves people alone and respects their rights. 

Can you think of a scenario which might, somehow, make a plausible case for a dictatorship respecting rights better than a democracy it overthrows?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2007, 04:56:04 PM »
Algeria, 1992, might qualify, if you don't mind 10 years of butt-ugly counter-insurgency.

I recall the Islamic Salvation Front's unofficial motto, "One man, one vote.  Once."
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2007, 05:19:10 PM »
Quote
when the autocrat doesn't answer to you or anyone except his own circle of elites, what makes you think he's going to leave you alone?
I can't recall claiming it was very likely. My point is that what matters is liberty. It really doesn't matter at all how it's achieved. As I said, democracy happens to be the best way to achieve that, but it doesn't always work.
D. R. ZINN

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2007, 05:22:14 PM »
Quote
when the autocrat doesn't answer to you or anyone except his own circle of elites, what makes you think he's going to leave you alone?
I can't recall claiming it was very likely. My point is that what matters is liberty. It really doesn't matter at all how it's achieved. As I said, democracy happens to be the best way to achieve that, but it doesn't always work.

Yes, we all know that democracy doesn't always work.  What is your critique here then?  I clearly didn't understand the point you were making.  What I thought you were saying was that having a military coup overthrow and kill chavez would be better than just waiting for the next election to let Venezuelans vote on his performance.  And if they elected Chavez again, you said "they don't deserve democracy." 

So I thought you were saying that in this case, a military dictatorship would actually be better than democracy.  Is that wrong? Or are you actually agreeing with me that Venezuela should continue to practice democracy, and that's the most likely way that people's rights will be protected (if imperfectly)?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2007, 06:18:03 PM »
What I'm saying is that if the Venezuelan people are stupid enough to re-elect Chavez (or if they don't but he makes it look like they did), a coup would be justified if it would install a government more respectful of the people's rights.

I don't pretend it's likely. My entire point is that the important things is not democracy itself, but the protection of liberty, and if that liberty can be provided in any other way, it's just as good.
D. R. ZINN

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2007, 08:41:34 PM »
What I'm saying is that if the Venezuelan people are stupid enough to re-elect Chavez (or if they don't but he makes it look like they did), a coup would be justified if it would install a government more respectful of the people's rights.

In other words, you don't think respect for people's right to government by consent is important? Or even primary?

What I'm interested in is how you can justify such a breach of civil society when there is another election coming up.  Maybe if there was, as jfruser described, "one man, one vote, once", that would make sense.  But if you really think democracy is the most likely way to secure liberty in the long run, why not just wait for the next election???

Quote
I don't pretend it's likely. My entire point is that the important things is not democracy itself, but the protection of liberty, and if that liberty can be provided in any other way, it's just as good.

This is an interesting idea.  How does one "protect liberty" independent of any consent or control on the part of the protected? Doesn't that strike you as a bit contradictory, to say "I'll protect your liberty-whether you want me to or not"?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Len Budney

  • Senior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 1,023
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2007, 04:30:15 AM »
In other words, you don't think respect for people's right to government by consent is important? Or even primary?

He's saying that freedom matters, and the form of government is secondary. Democracy is not "government by consent"; that's just propaganda. And democracy is not especially good at preserving freedom. The Palestinians had an election, and put dictatorial terrorists in power. The Germans democratically elected the Nazis to a plurality in the Reichstag, and then democratically granted Hitler the "emergency powers" in the enabling act. Israel's two most powerful parties are the socialists and the Orthodox. In the US it's barely any better. Democrats favor authoritarian domestic policy (at our expense), and Republicans favor authoritarian foreign policy (at our expense).

Quote
This is an interesting idea.  How does one "protect liberty" independent of any consent or control on the part of the protected? Doesn't that strike you as a bit contradictory, to say "I'll protect your liberty-whether you want me to or not"?

Actually, it's not contradictory. Since "liberty" is nothing more than the absence of force against one's person or property, the statement amounts to, "I'll keep my mitts to myself whether you want me to or not." If someone insists on being coerced, he can hire a dominatrix.

--Len.
In a cannibal society, vegetarians arouse suspicion.

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2007, 04:38:00 AM »
Quote
In other words, you don't think respect for people's right to government by consent is important? Or even primary?
Unless you mean that every individual has a right not to consent to that particular government, then no. If by "government by consent" you mean that 50% +1 have a right to decide how the rest should live and how much of their money they will be allowed to keep, then no.

Quote
Doesn't that strike you as a bit contradictory, to say "I'll protect your liberty-whether you want me to or not"?
Not surprising, but you're showing an utter lack of understanding of what I mean by "protect liberty." Let's paraphrase: "I'll leave you alone, whether you want me to or not." Hmmm... sounds good to me.

Edit: You beat me to the punch, Len.

Quote
the statement amounts to, "I'll keep my mitts to myself whether you want me to or not."
Great minds think alike.
D. R. ZINN

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2007, 10:46:06 AM »
Quote
The Germans democratically elected the Nazis to a plurality in the Reichstag, and then democratically granted Hitler the "emergency powers" in the enabling act.

This is a common line - but not exactly true.

The Nazis did receive a plurality - but only after the Reichstag fire and first round of Bolsheviks were arrested. And they only passed the Enabling Act by arresting the entirety of the KPD delegation and either a quarter or a third of the socialist SPD.

Which is to say that democracy can become a dictatorship - if you throw out that 'democracy' stuff. A strongman took power as all strongmen take power - through violence and intimidation, not because of 'legal wrangling' or 'democracy.'
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2007, 03:58:16 PM »
Quote
Which is to say that democracy can become a dictatorship - if you throw out that 'democracy' stuff.
Or if you don't.
D. R. ZINN

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2007, 05:24:25 PM »
Unless you mean that every individual has a right not to consent to that particular government, then no. If by "government by consent" you mean that 50% +1 have a right to decide how the rest should live and how much of their money they will be allowed to keep, then no.

So it's better in this particular case if a general shoots the elected leader and decides on his own? Or not? I'm trying to get a clear answer from you on the Chavez situation, because you seem to want to criticize what I'm saying about respecting elected leadership, but at the same time don't seem to commit to a position on the subject.

Quote
the statement amounts to, "I'll keep my mitts to myself whether you want me to or not."
Great minds think alike.
[/quote]

This would be nice, but unfortunately, neither military dictators nor anyone else respects this principle.  How would having a coup that topples Chavez in any realistic world provide something better

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2007, 05:30:52 PM »
He's saying that freedom matters, and the form of government is secondary. Democracy is not "government by consent"; that's just propaganda. And democracy is not especially good at preserving freedom. The Palestinians had an election, and put dictatorial terrorists in power. The Germans democratically elected the Nazis to a plurality in the Reichstag, and then democratically granted Hitler the "emergency powers" in the enabling act. Israel's two most powerful parties are the socialists and the Orthodox. In the US it's barely any better. Democrats favor authoritarian domestic policy (at our expense), and Republicans favor authoritarian foreign policy (at our expense).

An interesting point about those democracies you cite is how consistently they fail to reflect public opinion-one might conclude that the problem isn't democracy, but a lack of it.  Your opinion that the government infringes on freedoms and uses state money for improper purposes is widely shared by a public that generally doesn't approve of either party-yet things do not change, and no alternative is realistically available in elections.  This is a count for more accountability to the voters, not a count against it.


Quote
Actually, it's not contradictory. Since "liberty" is nothing more than the absence of force against one's person or property, the statement amounts to, "I'll keep my mitts to myself whether you want me to or not." If someone insists on being coerced, he can hire a dominatrix.

--Len.


Here's the problem: What if a big part of your population thinks "liberty" means "the right to decent medical care and the right to a good job" (that's the case in venezuela)?  How come all institutions of power are required to agree with your own vision of what liberty constitutes and what it doesn't?

Realizing that there is wide debate even over what constitutes a liberty and what are rights, I think democracy is the best system because it gives a medium for representing those different views and arbitrating disputes between them in a somewhat rational environment.  If you really don't agree that some things demanded by voters are rights, try to convince them; but if you can't, using a dictator who will refuse to institute their vision of "personal freedoms" and instead will institute yours is a recipe for disaster.  Large segments of the population will not respect the government, and bitterness over not having their own ideas of what constitutes "essential liberty" protected will only grow.  Witness the hatred of liberal (classical liberal) economic policies in Latin America, largely instituted by dictators.  Beneficial or not, they are widely hated...and their proponents are in serious political trouble because of the systems that implemented them. 

I actually do think that your basic idea, of being left alone and not being robbed by state officials, is something most people do support and would like-absent the politics that come along with it.  Perhaps more democracy is what the anarcho-capitalists and libertarians need, not less.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #71 on: November 26, 2007, 05:55:06 PM »
Democracy doesn't produce liberty.  Period.  In a pure democracy, eventually something happens that destroys liberty.  Perhaps some clever opportunist comes along to dupe the electorate into voting him into a dictatorship, or perhaps the population itself becomes a dictatorship of the majority.

So far, the best mechanism mankind has devised for protecting liberty is a set of constitutional restraints imposed on government.  In order for this to work the constitution must be sound and be backed up by the population.  If those criteria are met, it doesn't really matter if the government is chosen by election or otherwise.  Eventually this system also might fail, but odds are good that it'll produce more liberty for more people for a longer period of time than will a pure democracy.

As for overthrowing Chavez, why not?  It's becoming more and more obvious that Chavez is setting himself up as a commie dictator.  Coups don't always improve the political landscape, but they do sometimes.  Worst case scenario with a coup is that one dictator gets replaced by another, which isn't much of a loss to the people.  It seems to me that in the case of overthrowing Chavez, the people have nothing to lose and potentially everything to gain. 

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2007, 06:27:54 PM »
Headless, can you illustrate exactly which states have lacked democracy, while instituting a "set of constitutional restraints" on the state itself - along with protecting basic human rights? I'm really curious about where I might find one of these creatures.

Some of y'all need to learn to differentiate between 'democracy' and 'direct democracy.'
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2007, 08:02:38 PM »
Quote
So it's better in this particular case if a general shoots the elected leader and decides on his own?
If he's less oppressive, then yes. If he's more oppressive, then no. See how this works? More liberty= good. Less liberty= bad. Simple.

Quote
What if a big part of your population thinks "liberty" means "the right to decent medical care and the right to a good job" (that's the case in venezuela)?
If a big part of the population thinks "apple" means" orange," that doesn't make it so. No definition of liberty includes things being given to you. Only a very twisted definition of rights includes such.

Let me try stating this one again: You don't have a right to anything that must be provided by someone else.
D. R. ZINN

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2007, 08:14:05 PM »
Quote
Let me try stating this one again: You don't have a right to anything that must be provided by someone else.

Tell that to Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and Bush, Jr., who all ripped off our social security payments and squandered them.