Boo-hoo... Dear Aunt Zaituni feels bad.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Do you think the failure of the United States will kill socialism?

[RevDisk]

Do you think the failure of the United States will kill socialism?

You said "almost everything associated with the US government and US economy", which is not remotely the same thing as the "United States". 


Anyways, back to the original topic.  So Obama's aunt is a criminal.  So?  Deport her or throw her in jail.  Can't blame a man for what his family does.  If Obama pulled strings to get his aunt special treatment, that's one thing.  But he hasn't. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

You said "almost everything associated with the US government and US economy", which is not remotely the same thing as the "United States".  

Say what?  

What's left of the "United States" without everything associated with the US gov and US economy and our entire public lives?   Some of the people and buildings and stuff might still be here, our family and personal relationships might still exist, but those are not what make the United States what it is.  The "United States" is our way of governing ourselves and our way of organizing our economy and our way of living with each other in the public sphere.

I ask again, what makes you think that the failure of the United States (however defined) will end socialism?  

I see the United States as the last great impediment to worldwide socialism.  Our failure would encourage socialism, not kill it.  I think it's foolhardy (to put it mildly) to hope on the failure of Unites States as some sort of strategy for curing some of the problems we face.

[AZRedhawk44]

I think it's foolhardy (to put it mildly) to hope on the failure of Unites States as some sort of strategy for curing some of the problems we face.

Except...

we did just fine for ~150 years until some idgit came up with social security.  And welfare.  And nationalized health care.  And gun control.  And failure to punish criminals.

Americans know that.  If the goobermint of the United States fails, we still have the goobermints of the red states individually.  They are free to associate into a new embodiment of the United States, using the original Constitution as a framework.  And kick out Massachusetts, California and New York, hopefully.

Americans know that out-of-control spending is destroying the dollar and their savings as a result.  Not a "failure to have compassion."  Failure to administer tough love is killing our country.

The children in the coastal cities aren't going to put a functional and prosperous country back together from the broken pieces, and they sure aren't going to conscript the military to do so.  It'll be up to the adults that know how to work.

[Perd Hapley]

So now some of us think that Americans are so pathetic, we can't even survive the failure of our ponzi schemes.  Sad. 

That's defeatist B.S., and I can't abide it.  It's just as weak and pathetic as putting our hope in foreigners who may or may not want to assimilate. 

If America is worth a rat's behind, it can survive as it always has.  If not, it wasn't worth it.

[MicroBalrog]

So now some of us think that Americans are so pathetic, we can't even survive the failure of our ponzi schemes.  Sad. 

That's defeatist B.S., and I can't abide it.  It's just as weak and pathetic as putting our hope in foreigners who may or may not want to assimilate. 

If America is worth a rat's behind, it can survive as it always has.  If not, it wasn't worth it.

....I actually agree with fistful.

[roo_ster]

The welfare state puts the pinch on reproduction by the productive and is an incentive to the non-productive to reproduce.

How exactly is that true?

Lots of good points made in support of my contention, but I'll add a bit to them.

Children cost money to raise.  In the old days, there was an economic advantage to big families.  There is no longer an advantage to having a bunch of kids to help run the farm, since so few of us live on a farm, anymore. 

So, to the productive, children are a luxury on which to spend disposable income.  The more disposable income, the more children one can afford. 

In addition to money, kids require space.  Do some demographic googling.  You'll find that the places in America with the most costly real estate & rents are the places with the fewest births per woman of child-bearing age. 

Things like taxes, regulations, zoning, etc. all drive up costs or reduce net income.

These days, most households require both parents to work to stay "middle class" and pay the taxes that have grown over the decades  When Mommie is off at work, she can;t take care of the kids.  Paying someone else to costs money, too, so each family must find the right balance and hopefully optimize their situation.

Of course, it isn;t all economic and there are other contributors, but economics is a big one.

[roo_ster]

So now some of us think that Americans are so pathetic, we can't even survive the failure of our ponzi schemes.  Sad. 

That's defeatist B.S., and I can't abide it.  It's just as weak and pathetic as putting our hope in foreigners who may or may not want to assimilate. 

If America is worth a rat's behind, it can survive as it always has.  If not, it wasn't worth it.

This.  America is not a vampiric bureaucracy, its toadies, and its welfare clients.  If they all DIAF, America would still be here.  

[RevDisk]

So now some of us think that Americans are so pathetic, we can't even survive the failure of our ponzi schemes.  Sad. 

That's defeatist B.S., and I can't abide it.  It's just as weak and pathetic as putting our hope in foreigners who may or may not want to assimilate. 

If America is worth a rat's behind, it can survive as it always has.  If not, it wasn't worth it.

...

That's probably the most beautiful words you've written that I've seen.  Well spoken.

[AZRedhawk44]

So now some of us think that Americans are so pathetic, we can't even survive the failure of our ponzi schemes.  Sad. 

That's defeatist B.S., and I can't abide it.  It's just as weak and pathetic as putting our hope in foreigners who may or may not want to assimilate. 

If America is worth a rat's behind, it can survive as it always has.  If not, it wasn't worth it.

There must be some dust in my eyes or something.  And it's fistful's fault.

[Perd Hapley]

Should I just retire now? 

[longeyes]

America will survive, but not necessarily in a form any of us would recognize or in any fixed geographic place.  How much future America resembles legacy America is being worked out right now.  I personally do not see physical America retaining today's borders, but all of this is very fluid and up to us.  We have  our hands full just keeping our core values intact; projecting them outward in political form is going to be very challenging, rough stuff.  Instead of worrying about nation-building abroad we need to focus on nation-building HERE.  We have already lost, probably permanently, half the country.  That should shock all of us to the core.  It doesn't mean it's hopeless; it does mean we have to be very realistic about what's required.  Defeatism isn't what we are up against; complacency is.  We need to recognize we are in an existential cultural war and act accordingly; so far I don't see anything by way of reaction that is commensurate with the threat.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

So now some of us think that Americans are so pathetic, we can't even survive the failure of our ponzi schemes.  Sad. 

That's defeatist B.S., and I can't abide it.  It's just as weak and pathetic as putting our hope in foreigners who may or may not want to assimilate. 

If America is worth a rat's behind, it can survive as it always has.  If not, it wasn't worth it.

You've got to be kidding. 

I'm afraid we will survive as we always have, by adding still more welfare, more socialism, less property rights, less liberty, less individualism, and more extra-constitutional big government.  This is what happened last time we had a major fiscal collapse.  This is what's happening in the current fiscal collapse.  This is what's going to happen in the hypothetical future great collapse.

Sure, there will be something here after any potential collapse.  The question is whether it'll be as good as it was before, whether it'll resemble its former greatness, whether it'll be anything like the United States should be.  Nothing I've seen on that point is encouraging.

As far as strategies go, destroying America to get rid of socialism ranks right up there with taking multiple 308s to the chest.  I'd suggest a Plan B.

Anything positive you might possibly do after a collapse, you could do now without any collapse.  You should it now without any collapse.  If you guys really believe you can pull it off, then prove it by doing it now.  Quit waiting for some impending great collapse before getting started implementing your solutions.

[Balog]

Me, Rev, Micro and fistful all agree. Must be all this peace and co-operation Obama is spreading around. 

[Perd Hapley]

You're the only suggesting that a collapse of social security et al amounts to "destroying America." 

I'd prefer to proceed without this great collapse foretold by prophecy.  But I'm not going to fear it, as you seem to do. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

You're the only suggesting that a collapse of social security et al amounts to "destroying America."  

I'd prefer to proceed without this great collapse foretold by prophecy.  But I'm not going to fear it, as you seem to do.  

How do you imagine a collapse of social security would play out?

Unless we unwind the welfare state voluntarily, and soon, the only two outcomes that seem realistic to me are a FedGov default on bonds, or a Weimar-style hyperinflation.  Either would be the end of America-as-we-know-it.  

I'm not sure what makes anyone think "it can't happen here" or that America is somehow immune to basic economics.  It can happen here, and it will, unless we get serious about fixing this stuff.

I'm glad you at least prefer to avoid any great collapses.  I see far too many people who seem eager for it, thinking that it will right all wrongs and set us back on the proper path.  "Get it on and get it over with", as they often say.  That may be a romantic notion, and it may be fun to boast about it on the net, but I really don't think it's a sound strategy.

[Perd Hapley]

 I see far too many people who seem eager for it, thinking that it will right all wrongs and set us back on the proper path.  "Get it on and get it over with", as they often say.  That may be a romantic notion, and it may be fun to boast about it on the net, but I really don't think it's a sound strategy.

I think it would be preferable to some outcomes, but I'm definitely not opposed to ending it more calmly.

[RevDisk]

How do you imagine a collapse of social security would play out?

Unless we unwind the welfare state voluntarily, and soon, the only two outcomes that seem realistic to me are a FedGov default on bonds, or a Weimar-style hyperinflation.  Either would be the end of America-as-we-know-it.  

I'm not sure what makes anyone think "it can't happen here" or that America is somehow immune to basic economics.  It can happen here, and it will, unless we get serious about fixing this stuff.

I'm glad you at least prefer to avoid any great collapses.  I see far too many people who seem eager for it, thinking that it will right all wrongs and set us back on the proper path.  "Get it on and get it over with", as they often say.  That may be a romantic notion, and it may be fun to boast about it on the net, but I really don't think it's a sound strategy.

Personally, I agree with you on the likely outcomes.  We can ditch socialism now and avoid the third world option (default or inflate away the debt) by cutting spending and reducing debt.  Likely, we will not.  It's be near impossible to vote out socialism.  Not totally impossible, but very unlikely.  While I'd prefer avoid any great financial collapses, I can see the appeal of "Do it now!" as the longer socialism survives, the greater the collapse will be.  Not saying I like it, but I understand the perspective.  Though, I think it'd go either way.  Back to the original intent, or even worse.  I have faith in America.  We're not exactly known for going whimpering into the night. 

Also, I have a hard time understanding your seemingly unshakable link between the country as a whole and the current government.  The two are not directly linked.  The shape of our government has significantly changed since the days of the Continental Congress and today.  Yet America is still America.

What is your suggestion of a sound strategy?  I really don't see a practical one, but I'm very open to any suggestions. 

[Monkeyleg]

"Get it on and get it over with", as they often say.

That's what countless people on forums have been saying every other November for years. Let the rotten politicians push the country to the brink, and we'll take it back again. Big talk.

This time around, it's real. All the fears of socialism, a weak president, staggering amounts of borrowing and more are reality.

It's not so much fun to be a keyboard commando when the threat is finally at your door, is it? (I'm not talking about anyone here).

[longeyes]

The "sound strategy" is to separate the wheat from the chaff.  Divorce, a peaceful separation.  Any other "solution" requires swallowing the insanity whole and believing it can be safely digested.  It can't be.  Let the Left have its America while we have ours. 

[Monkeyleg]

Let the Left have its America while we have ours.

Count me in. But how do you achieve that geographically? Do you force people to move and, if so, how do you force them?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

That's what countless people on forums have been saying every other November for years. Let the rotten politicians push the country to the brink, and we'll take it back again. Big talk.

This time around, it's real. All the fears of socialism, a weak president, staggering amounts of borrowing and more are reality.

It's not so much fun to be a keyboard commando when the threat is finally at your door, is it? (I'm not talking about anyone here).

This.  I can't tell you how many people I see out there who seem eager for the end times to begin.  They have their AK and a coupla spam cans, and they're sure they can take it.

They don't have a clue what they're in for.  

America may have survived many calamities over the years, but nobody seems to realize just how many Americans did not survive those calamities.  If they understood, they'd be a lot more zealous about preserving the greatest nation on earth (warts and all), and a lot less eager to see it plunged into disaster.  

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Also, I have a hard time understanding your seemingly unshakable link between the country as a whole and the current government.  The two are not directly linked.  The shape of our government has significantly changed since the days of the Continental Congress and today.  Yet America is still America.

I think you've misread me.  I've not spoken about the "current government", and I'm not sure what you mean by "the country as a whole".

All along I've made reference to our public lives, our government, our economy, and everything associated with them.  You could call this our way of life.  Or you could call it America-as-we-know-it.  These things were deliberately set up the way they are by wise, rational men who understood that these things must exist, all of them, and in this specific form, for us to best enjoy the blessings of life.  These things have changed slightly over the years, but not radically.  It's still basically America, a society that is more-or-less civilized, self governed, and respectful of private property.  Without these things there'd still be people, building, rocks, dirt, and stuff here, but it wouldn't be America.  It would be no different from every other lousy two-bit nation clinging to the globe.

If the welfare state collapsed uncontrollably, these elements that define America would be altered in ways that would make whatever remains unrecognizable as America.

[Balog]

Believing something is going to happen and having lurid fantasies about it happening are two different things. Nice lil ad hom there, everyone who thinks fed.gov is both unsustainable in it's current iteration and unlikely to change are just mall ninja keyboard commandos wanking to Mad Max.

[MicroBalrog]

Or you could call it America-as-we-know-it.  These things were deliberately set up the way they are by wise, rational men who understood that these things must exist, all of them, and in this specific form, for us to best enjoy the blessings of life. 

I don't think this is quite true. Modern America is not, politically, the America of the Founding Fathers. It's not even the America of Calvin Coolidge.

The statists have, over the past 80 years, performed a revolution (the New Deal) and then enhanced it by decades of evolutionary change.

No, I do not believe the modern state, in its current form, must exist for me to best enjoy the blessings of life.