Author Topic: The GM Volt... (Read 19437 times)

K Frame · « **on:** August 11, 2009, 11:15:58 AM »

General Motors has come out with preliminary mileage figures on their new Volt. They're claiming 230 miles per gallon equiv. in city driving.

The problem with that?

The concept would be very attractive to me, as virtually all of my driving is very short range, but I've heard that the base price of the car will be $40,000; extras quickly push it well beyond that.

I wonder what kind of reception this car is going to get based on GM's bankruptcy, the fact that the gov't now owns about 60% of it, GM's incredibly poor reliability record for it new car models over the past 15 or so years, their incredible inability to market their products, and their overall blandness...

zahc · « **Reply #1 on:** August 11, 2009, 11:18:18 AM »

No Obamacars for me; thanks.

K Frame · « **Reply #2 on:** August 11, 2009, 11:23:44 AM »

This hardly qualifies as an Obamacar.

The Prius and Ford's several hybrids were introduced during Bush's administration.

Does that make them Bushocars?

How about the Baker Electric? Would that have been a Rooseveltcar?

Jesus...

Nick1911 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 11, 2009, 11:28:26 AM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on August 11, 2009, 11:23:44 AM

This hardly qualifies as an Obamacar.

The Prius and Ford's several hybrids were introduced during Bush's administration.

Does that make them Bushocars?

How about the Baker Electric? Would that have been a Rooseveltcar?

Jesus...

I was unaware that the federal government was a majority shareholder of Toyota and Ford during the Bush Administration.

Ditto with Baker electric and the Roosevelt administartion.

Jamisjockey · « **Reply #4 on:** August 11, 2009, 11:33:16 AM »

Is the volt a plug and play car?
My problem with electric cars is that we're not building any new forms of electric power. A few "green" projects that aren't shovel ready.
My electric bill is already high enough. I couldn't imagine plugging in my car every day and adding to that.

RoadKingLarry · « **Reply #5 on:** August 11, 2009, 11:33:28 AM »

The Volt is going to be a short circuit. At that price point they are not going to sell enough of them to matter. At least not to private consumers. I can imagine a government mandate to buy them (or similar) to replace government motorpool cars but only for the lower echelon types.

Has GM released any real specifics of the car? What is the expected service life of batteries, cost to replace the batteries, expected service life of the car itself. What kind of routine maintenance will it require and what will that cost.

makattak · « **Reply #6 on:** August 11, 2009, 11:37:21 AM »

Aside from it being an Obamacar, it also doesn't make economic sense.

$40K for the car. Let's say it gets 230 MPG.

Similar cars (weight, safety, etc...) will get around 30 MPG. Let's make it 23. (Easier math). The will also cost, base price, around $15K.

SOOOO, it gets 10 times the gas mileage.

If you spend $50 per week currently on gas that comes out to a savings of around $2000 per year in gas. (I'm going to guess it has to be plugged in and electricity isn't free, either).

That means it will take over 10 years just to recoup the initial investment. This ignores the present value calculations which would send the years in the future even further.

So, GM is coming out with another bad idea. How surprising.

charby · « **Reply #7 on:** August 11, 2009, 11:44:11 AM »

Plus I have a feeling you will have to have a seperate meter to charge the car with so useage tax can be assessed due to no gas tax being paid at the pump. Fed and states will want their tax dollars.

K Frame · « **Reply #8 on:** August 11, 2009, 11:44:52 AM »

Quote from: Nick1911 on August 11, 2009, 11:28:26 AM

I was unaware that the federal government was a majority shareholder of Toyota and Ford during the Bush Administration.

Ditto with Baker electric and the Roosevelt administartion.

Then maybe you'd like to be aware that the Volt has been on GM's drawing boards for at least two years?

And GM was planning to release the Volt even BEFORE the current economic climate caused it to go into bankruptcy?

How does that dovetail into your "OH GOD IT'S EVIL BECAUSE OBAMA'S PRESIDENT!"

What kind of idiotic reasoning is that?

How about this fact?

The Federal Government has been invested in major American corporations for decades, primarily through the auspices of programs like the Federal Thrift Savings Program.

So, what? Pulsing cycles of evil corporations when Democrats are in power, and good, wonderful, beneficial corporations when Republicans are in power?

K Frame · « **Reply #9 on:** August 11, 2009, 11:46:38 AM »

Quote from: JamisJockey on August 11, 2009, 11:33:16 AM

Is the volt a plug and play car?
My problem with electric cars is that we're not building any new forms of electric power. A few "green" projects that aren't shovel ready.
My electric bill is already high enough. I couldn't imagine plugging in my car every day and adding to that.

Apparently you can plug it in, but it also has a small gasoline engine that allows charging of the battery. The engine also powers the car while the battery pack is charging.

Ultimate range is apparently 300+ miles on one charge and a tank of gasoline.

Jocassee · « **Reply #10 on:** August 11, 2009, 12:26:21 PM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on August 11, 2009, 11:46:38 AM

Apparently you can plug it in, but it also has a small gasoline engine that allows charging of the battery. The engine also powers the car while the battery pack is charging.

Ultimate range is apparently 300+ miles on one charge and a tank of gasoline.

That sounds pretty good to me. I wonder how it does on ridiculous hills, like we have in SC/Western NC? Not that I can afford it anyways...

alex_trebek · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2009, 12:41:01 PM »

I think the volt's drive train will be more comparable to the aptera, more commonly seen on modern (post '30's) diesel locomotive trains.

The idea is as follows:

Run the engine at it's most thermodynamically efficient RPM.
Use the diesel/gas engine to run a generator/alternator
Store the electricity using a battery system
The battery system supplies the electric motor with the electricity needed to drive the vehicle.

Both the aptera and volt will probably to be both plug-in and gas powered. This means your vehicle isn't tethered to a power outlet, and you have the option of never using gasoline/diesel if you so desire.

This differs from the current hybrid market, in the fact that the electric motors only drive the vehicle to 15 mph as opposed to full time.

Think of it as an electric car with it's own power generator. IMO this is the only real viable hybrid, assuming the costs can be reduced.

Quite frankly, I question GM's ability to increase cost efficiency. I also question Aptera's claim of $26,000 costs.
It will be interesting to see what happens.

Edit to add:

I heard a claim that a retired engineer, who was supposedly considered an expert in thermodynamics, designed an entirely new engine cycle that is supposed to be more thermodynamically efficient. Basically, on this design, every other cylinder would fire and the engine would basically act as a two-stage compressor. It supposedly compresses the air/gasoline fuel mixture to point of auto-ignition in the second stage cylinder. Interesting concept, I think Honda and Ford bought the rights to research this design further.

seeker_two · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2009, 12:51:16 PM »

The Volt makes for a great concept car....but the technology's not practical....yet....

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2009, 12:57:36 PM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on August 11, 2009, 11:44:52 AM

Then maybe you'd like to be aware that the Volt has been on GM's drawing boards for at least two years?

And GM was planning to release the Volt even BEFORE the current economic climate caused it to go into bankruptcy?

How does that dovetail into your "OH GOD IT'S EVIL BECAUSE OBAMA'S PRESIDENT!"

What kind of idiotic reasoning is that?

How about this fact?

The Federal Government has been invested in major American corporations for decades, primarily through the auspices of programs like the Federal Thrift Savings Program.

So, what? Pulsing cycles of evil corporations when Democrats are in power, and good, wonderful, beneficial corporations when Republicans are in power?

Oh, c'mon. You're trying to compare the Federal Thrift Savings Plan with FedGov's nationalization of the auto industry?

I know hyperbole is the norm around here, but gimme a break.

Some of us simply don't want to make major purchases from FedGov owned and controlled companies.

brimic · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2009, 12:58:57 PM »

I have a feeling that Nissan is going to beat the snot out of the Volt.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/environment/2009-05-06-nissan-electric-car-volt_N.htm

HankB · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:05:24 PM »

Quote from: charby on August 11, 2009, 11:44:11 AM

Plus I have a feeling you will have to have a seperate meter to charge the car with so useage tax can be assessed due to no gas tax being paid at the pump. Fed and states will want their tax dollars.

This is a safe bet . . . and expect that other methods (GPS? Odometer readings?) will be instituted before the registered electric car base reaches 1% of registered vehicles, just to be sure people aren't using unapproved sources of electricity.

Federal and State Bureaus of Vehicular Electric Power Taxation will be formed . . .

Hmmm . . . most batteries lose power in cold weather, so I wonder what happens to the Volt's range if it's 20 below zero in Minnesota and you're driving at night with headlights on and the heater and window defroster both going full blast?

K Frame · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:08:48 PM »

"Oh, c'mon. You're trying to compare the Federal Thrift Savings Plan with FedGov's nationalization of the auto industry?"

Government involvement/ownership is government ownership. Doesn't matter how, when, or why, apparently it's all EVIL!

Apparently. :rolleyes:

That still doesn't address the fact that the Volt was on GM's planned development list long BEFORE all the crying and whining about Evil Barak Motors Corporation.

"Some of us simply don't want to make major purchases from FedGov owned and controlled companies."

Yes, no smell of incipient hyperbole in that at all...

Let's look at it this way...

Given that the Government is of the people, by the people, and for the people, in fact the people own a controlling interest in GM.

That means that it's American owned.

And isn't that what we keep hearing, that we should be supporting American owned businesses?

Northwoods · « **Reply #17 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:15:04 PM »

From an engineering standpoint I always thought the Prius and similar parallel hybrids were stupid. Anyone that thought they were a good idea from any perspective must have failed thermodynamics.

OTOH series hybrids like the Volt actually start to make some degree of sense. They're still not all that effecient as you're still burning fuel to create electricity, charging batteries and then then discharging them though the motor to drive the car. Lots of loss at each of those steps. But, once you work it all out it's probably close to the same total energy use as a typical ICE setup.

When you need the imense torque of an electric motor then having the series hybrid can make a lot of sense. Otherwise the cost and complexity probably outweigh any advantage.

'Course the other thing that's been mentioned here but seems to be ignored in a lot of MSM coverage is that we simply don't have the electrical energy infrastructure to support a large scale conversion to plug-in hybrids. Until large numbers of new power generators are built the system would be overwhelmed if more than a token amount of these cars hit the fleet. And since the greenies will fight tooth and nail against any kind of new power generation (it's either the nuclear boogyman, or evil fossil fuels, or bird shredding wind, or ecology destroying hydro/solar/tidal) it'll never be possible to make this kind of change to our auto technology.

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:25:25 PM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on August 11, 2009, 01:08:48 PM

"Oh, c'mon. You're trying to compare the Federal Thrift Savings Plan with FedGov's nationalization of the auto industry?"

Government involvement/ownership is government ownership. Doesn't matter how, when, or why, apparently it's all EVIL!

Apparently. :rolleyes:

That still doesn't address the fact that the Volt was on GM's planned development list long BEFORE all the crying and whining about Evil Barak Motors Corporation.

"Some of us simply don't want to make major purchases from FedGov owned and controlled companies."

Yes, no smell of incipient hyperbole in that at all...

What difference does it make when the Volt was designed? The circumstances of GM right now are offensive to me, and I don't want to do business with them under these circumstances. You may not differentiate between investing government pensions in the stock market vs government takeovers of private companies, but I do. And I think I'm not alone in that.

I'm really not sure where you're coming from on all this. Federal pension plans and design dates might be interesting, but they have nothing at all to do with whether I would want to buy from GM today.

alex_trebek · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:31:18 PM »

Quote

From an engineering standpoint I always thought the Prius and similar parallel hybrids were stupid. Anyone that thought they were a good idea from any perspective must have failed thermodynamics.

I am really glad someone else agrees with me on this. I was starting to wonder if I was insane...

The only benefit of the hybrid is it's utilization of what I call "Golf cart technology." In other words, the engine shuts off when the car is stopped.
I don't understand why this can't be installed on other/all automatic/CVT cars, if anyone knows please inform me.

To be honest the thing I hate the most about hybrids are the "fuel saving" tires. When will people learn that the four (sometimes less) strips of rubber are the only thing between the car and road? Why would anyone want tires with less traction, just to save 2 MPG? Of course this comes from the guy that put "ultra-high performance" tires on a stock civic, simply to have more control of the car (and more noise, less gas mileage). I digress....

I think designs like the aptera have a decent chance, provided better battery technology. If reducing green house gases is the goal, then both the volt/aptera and standard hybrid designs are utter fail.

Oil is such a wonderful fuel source, that I don't think it will be gone/obsolete for decades.

K Frame · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:32:19 PM »

"I'm really not sure where you're coming from on all this."

I'm not really sure why people started whining and crying about GM's current ownership status.

I asked about he car's design specifications and GM's ability to market the thing, and instead I start getting a lot of Barak Obama is eating my soul pants wetting bullshit.

Maybe we should turn GM over to the Chinese. At least then you'd have something honest to complain about.

makattak · « **Reply #21 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:33:36 PM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on August 11, 2009, 01:32:19 PM

Maybe we should turn GM over to the Chinese. At least then you'd have something honest to complain about.

That sounds like an EXCELLENT idea.

Maybe we could cancel some of our debt and saddle them with an unresponsive dinosaur of a company. PERFECT!

alex_trebek · « **Reply #22 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:36:22 PM »

Quote

Maybe we should turn GM over to the Chinese. At least then you'd have something honest to complain about.

They are working on it.

K Frame · « **Reply #23 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:37:47 PM »

What the hell is that thing.

And I will gladly agree to give GM to the Chinese. But only if they take a bunch of people from this thread.

alex_trebek · « **Reply #24 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:40:57 PM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on August 11, 2009, 01:37:47 PM

What the hell is that thing.

And I will gladly agree to give GM to the Chinese. But only if they take a bunch of people from this thread.

Meet the first generation Equinox. Engine made in China, by Shanghai GM. People claim that eventually GM will just do the engineering design work, and Shanghai GM will do all the manual labor/assembly.

Initially I had heard that the entire vehicle was made in China, further research proved that assertion to be false.

News:

Author Topic: The GM Volt... (Read 19437 times)