The GM Volt...

[CNYCacher]

"I'm really not sure where you're coming from on all this."

I'm not really sure why people started whining and crying about GM's current ownership status.

I asked about he car's design specifications and GM's ability to market the thing, and instead I start getting a lot of Barak Obama is eating my soul pants wetting bullshit.

Maybe we should turn GM over to the Chinese. At least then you'd have something honest to complain about.

I didn't WANT to own part of a failing company.  I don't appreciate my money being taken away to prevent this company from failing.  I am apalled you would find this to be OK.  If the fed.gov forced us to all buy GM cars, would you support this as well?

[AJ Dual]

From an engineering standpoint I always thought the Prius and similar parallel hybrids were stupid.  Anyone that thought they were a good idea from any perspective must have failed thermodynamics.  

OTOH series hybrids like the Volt actually start to make some degree of sense. They're still not all that effecient as you're still burning fuel to create electricity, charging batteries and then then discharging them though the motor to drive the car.  Lots of loss at each of those steps.  But, once you work it all out it's probably close to the same total energy use as a typical ICE setup.

When you need the imense torque of an electric motor then having the series hybrid can make a lot of sense.  Otherwise the cost and complexity probably outweigh any advantage.

Well, done right, an in-line hybrid should be simpler, and cheaper to produce, and require less complex machinings and engineering.

You can put the batteries anywhere, for optimal handling and weight distribution, same for the ICE generator. And the center of gravity should further be enhanced by a motor-in-wheel design. No drive train, no transmission, and within reason, you can put anything anywhere, because it need only be connected by wiring.

Might as well go to all-electric steering and braking as well. Don't talk to me about being scared of that. Looking at the exposed brake lines of current automobiles is just as scary IMO...

I think the in-line or series hybrid is the future. And there are tons of power losses in the "gasoline" chain, with refining, distribution, storage, pumping, and all the parasitic losses in a traditional ICE and transmission/powertrain.

However I think I'll wait for someone else to come up with one at a reasonable price-point that reflects the potential savings the vehicle archetecture affords, and isn't beholden to the fed.gov, or the UAW.  

[K Frame]

"I didn't WANT to own part of a failing company.  I don't appreciate my money being taken away to prevent this company from failing.  I am apalled you would find this to be OK.  If the fed.gov forced us to all buy GM cars, would you support this as well?"

I'm sure there are many actions by the Government that leave you apalled, just as there are many that leave me apalled.

I never said that I found it acceptable.

I do, however, accept the known and basic fact that the Government of the United States is not always going to do exactly what I demand that it do, exactly when I demand it, and exactly how I demand it.

So, I get mad about it, I write my Representatives about it, and then I move on. I don't start obsessing about something that is very likely not going to change any time soon and lose sight of the fact that just because I'm pissed the Government hasn't shut down.

It continues to shock me that so many people feel that that is their entitlement, and theirs alone, to expect the Goverment to be their personal servant.

[CNYCacher]

I'm sure there are many actions by the Government that leave you apalled, just as there are many that leave me apalled.

I never said that I found it acceptable.

I do, however, accept the known and basic fact that the Government of the United States is not always going to do exactly what I demand that it do, exactly when I demand it, and exactly how I demand it.

So, I get mad about it, I write my Representatives about it, and then I move on. I don't start obsessing about something that is very likely not going to change any time soon and lose sight of the fact that just because I'm pissed the Government hasn't shut down.

It continues to shock me that so many people feel that that is their entitlement, and theirs alone, to expect the Goverment to be their personal servant.

That is true, you never did say you found it acceptable.

I don't want the government to be my personal servant.  For the most part I want them to build roads and then leave me alone.

[K Frame]

"For the most part I want them to build roads and then leave me alone."

Ah....

ANOTHER bugaboo for so many people.

Just WHAT in the Constitution gives the Government the right or mandate to enter into bond agreements to build and maintain the interstate highway system?

What gives the Government the right to collect gasoline taxes to distribut amongst the states to build those roads?

[zahc]

Anyone that thought they were a good idea from any perspective must have failed thermodynamics. 

I always understood it as the electric half was just a "booster" that allowed them to get away with putting a teeny tiny gas motor that wouldn't have enough torque for reasonable acceleration. The flat electric torque curve kicks in during acceleration, allowing use of a smaller motor for cruising, compared to the usual situation of having to have an over-powered ICE to enable acceleration which then idles along during cruise. So although thermodynamically it might not make sense, it can make sense all things considered.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

"I'm really not sure where you're coming from on all this."

I'm not really sure why people started whining and crying about GM's current ownership status.

I asked about he car's design specifications and GM's ability to market the thing, and instead I start getting a lot of Barak Obama is eating my soul pants wetting bullshit.

Maybe we should turn GM over to the Chinese. At least then you'd have something honest to complain about.

 

Now I'm extra confused.  You specifically asked about what impact the bankruptcy and FedGov ownership would have on GM's ability to market the Volt.

I wonder what kind of reception this car is going to get based on GM's bankruptcy, the fact that the gov't now owns about 60% of it,

[CNYCacher]

Just WHAT in the Constitution gives the Government the right or mandate to enter into bond agreements to build and maintain the interstate highway system?

What gives the Government the right to collect gasoline taxes to distribut amongst the states to build those roads?

I'm not rightly sure.  But if it's going to do anything outside of its authority, building roads is about the only one I can think about that I like.

[Northwoods]

I always understood it as the electric half was just a "booster" that allowed them to get away with putting a teeny tiny gas motor that wouldn't have enough torque for reasonable acceleration. The flat electric torque curve kicks in during acceleration, allowing use of a smaller motor for cruising, compared to the usual situation of having to have an over-powered ICE to enable acceleration which then idles along during cruise. So although thermodynamically it might not make sense, it can make sense all things considered.

For less purchase cost, less maintenance cost, and less total environmental impact (remember to count in all the processes that go into manufacturing, distribution, operation, and disposal) you could just do a regular ICE setup to give the performance you want.  If you want to get fancy, do something like the MDS that Dodge was using in the Ram Hemi powered trucks to boost fuel economy (4 of the 8 cylinders get no fuel while in cruise mode).

[K Frame]

 

Now I'm extra confused.  You specifically asked about what impact the bankruptcy and FedGov ownership would have on GM's ability to market the Volt.

Yeah. You're right, I opened up the can of worms with that. Shouldn't have.

[Clem]

I believe the future is series hybrid cars. We have only been building trains like that for the last 60 or 70 yrs. The problem with the current electric hybrids is battery technology and life. The price of the Volt is $40k because it includes two $10k battery packs: one to drive out the door; and one to replace it under warranty.

I believe the electric and gas/electric hybrids envision charging at night, when electricity usage is down.

I think the design of the gas/electric hybrids should include high volume capacitors for quick charge and discharge. Batteries don’t like rapid charging and discharging. The capacitors could act as a buffer, which should improve performance and battery life.

A variation of the hybrid technology is use of hydraulic power instead of electricity, using a hydraulic accumulator to store fluid under pressure instead of a battery storing electric power. No hysteresis in the hydraulic accumulator! The EPA is funding research. The UPS may be the first company to use it to power their delivery trucks.

http://www.epa.gov/region09/air/hydraulic-hybrid/

[brimic]

Given that the Government is of the people, by the people, and for the people, in fact the people own a controlling interest in GM.

As a former GM shareholder, I find the notion that GM is 'owned by the people.'

Edit: I've been a loyal GM customer for the last 4 vehicles. I will not buy another GM product.  Notice that I didn't say "I won't buy another GM while its under government ownership."  Being a shareholder, I knew the risks and accept them, but what the administration did to the the bond holders was downright criminal.

[K Frame]

As a former GM shareholder, I find the notion that GM is 'owned by the people.'

is what?


IS WHAT?

THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME!

:D

[zahc]

It's a coherent sentence. He finds the notion.

[brimic]

is what?


IS WHAT?

THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME!

lol

.....insulting.

[K Frame]

Well.

That certainly wasn't worth the wait.

[HankB]

Just WHAT in the Constitution gives the Government the right or mandate to enter into bond agreements to build and maintain the interstate highway system?

Part of the original justification was that interstate highways served a military purpose, i.e., moving troops and military supplies around. So they were, in effect, part of providing for the common defense and raising a military.

Interestingly enough, there was some serious discussion about building bomb shelters under the hills leading up to overpasses and cloverleafs; the total cost of the highway system would have gone up about 5%, but would have made bomb shelters available to a LOT of people. (This WAS during the Cold War, after all.) But this was seen as being "too provocative" to the Soviets (who were in the meantime driving their subways deep for use as bomb shelters) so it wasn't done.

[seeker_two]

Maybe we should turn GM over to the Chinese.

Only if we get Norinco in trade.....esp. the SKS-producing division.... 

[K Frame]

"Part of the original justification was that interstate highways served a military purpose, i.e., moving troops and military supplies around. So they were, in effect, part of providing for the common defense and raising a military."

Very good, that is correct. My Father was a highway engineer for 20+ years and worked on many of the interstates on the East Coast.

Yes, the Federal Government had Constitutional right to BUILD the interstates.

But that's not what we're talking about.

What Constitutional provision gives the Feds the right to levy the public issues needed to finance the interstates, which is not specifically spelled out in the Constitution as a power accorded to the Federal Government. What gave the government the right to create the Federal Highway Corporation and issue $25 billion in bonds?

[Gewehr98]

Hell, I want the Norinco 1911 production branch.

I'd still wager an electric vehicle parked in the garage is gonna spin that wattmeter something fierce. 

You don't get something for nothing.

[HankB]

What Constitutional provision gives the Feds the right to levy the public issues needed to finance the interstates, which is not specifically spelled out in the Constitution as a power accorded to the Federal Government.

What is this Constitution of which you speak?

Oh, that's right, an obsolete document written by a bunch of white guys over 200 years ago.

Our government hasn't used that in years, Mike - get with the program.

[GigaBuist]

I'd still wager an electric vehicle parked in the garage is gonna spin that wattmeter something fierce. 

You don't get something for nothing.

You sorta do get something for nothing with the current electrical grid.  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the grid contains more electricity than we need most of the time.  When it doesn't we get brownouts and such.  If we were able to retrofit the system with something like QoS in the Internet world we could set various devices to higher and lower priorities.  So, if your car was charging during the day but set to a low priority it could just stop charging when the grid was under peak load.  At night when the load decreased the car would start charging again, but ideally at a lower rate as an incentive to keep you from just cranking up the priority switch during the day.

My ultimate dork fantasy here is to re-wire houses to do the same thing internally.  Cell phone chargers and such would get plugged into an outlet set to a low priority.  Air conditioners could be set only to run when the cheaper power is available unless the home's temp hit your personal limit.  With that in place you could then set different rates for various power sources that you provide yourself.  Like a solar panel on your roof.  High priority devices would suck off the grid when there isn't enough in your own panel but the lower ones would just go dormant.  Now add in the car battery that's charged up acting as a power source when the grid goes down.  Your whole house can be preconfigured to operate only on the bare essentials seamlessly.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Not really.  Most power plants are scaled to be able to provide enough electricity to meet peak demands, whereas average usage it usually much lower.  This means that a lot of the generating capacity, the capital equipment like boilers and turbines and whatnot, exist and are under utilized.  But having the capital equipment to generate more electricity dies not mean it's free to run the equipment.  It costs a lot of money to run the equipment, from fuel consumption to operating and maintenance costs to depreciation and wear on the machines.

It costs less to generate electricity during off peak times, but is definitely not free.

That said, doing the QoS thing and being able to balance out the demand would have benefits.   It takes time to fire up another boiler or spool up another turbine, it cannot be done instantly the moment demand rises.  The powerplants must be able to anticipate future demand and be ready for it in advance.  Often times they have to over-estimate usage so that the natural error inherent in their guesses doesn't leave them unprepared.  Averaging and balancing out the load would greatly reduce the tendency for plant operators to have too much extra generating capacity on line at any given moment.

IBM, and others, I think, are working on adding a QoS type intelligence to the power grid.  My uncle at IBM is working on it.  He says they've already made great advances simply by being able to predict when grid equipment is about to fail and replacing it preemptively.  It's quite expensive for something as simple as a transformer blowing.  It's much more costly than the replacement cost of the transformer.  There's wasted power, an unbalancing of the grid (nearby sections work harder to make up for the downed section), emergency repair costs, and on and on.

[Gewehr98]

That's assuming off-peak electrical rates are available everywhere.

They're not, at least not in my neck of the woods.

I also think folks are misled into thinking an electric vehicle will be an order of magnitude cheaper to operate than a hydrocarbon burner.

That's some serious amperage going into the car's recharging port, and I'd wager it would make the household air conditioner or kitchen oven look weak in comparison.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Until we adopt nuclear power or have a breakthrough in solar energy, electric cars are hydrocarbon burners just as much as gasoline cars are.