The Great College Degree Scam, Quantified

[roo_ster]

http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/the-great-college-degree-scam/28067

"...approximately 60 percent of the increase in the number of college graduates from 1992 to 2008 worked in jobs that the BLS considers relatively low skilled—occupations where many participants have only high school diplomas and often even less."

IOW, folks are spending 5 years and thousands of dollars to get a bachelor's degree that provides zero improvement in their employment prospects.

Do go and read the article.  If you are of college age or have kids, read it twice.

Then read Charles Murray's book Real Education:
http://www.amazon.com/Real-Education-Bringing-Americas-Schools/dp/0307405397/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292013221&sr=1-1

[MicroBalrog]

The purpose of education is not limited to increaasing your job prospects.

[roo_ster]

The purpose of education is not limited to increaasing your job prospects.

True, but advertising that it will, when for many cases/degrees it will not is more than a little deceptive.

[MicroBalrog]

True, but advertising that it will, when for many cases/degrees it will not is more than a little deceptive.

And yet even according to the statistics this man provides, the majority of college graduates had their employment prospects improved vastly.

40% of the increase (and more importantly, almsot two-thirds of the TOTAL) did not go to low-skilled jobs.

[makattak]

And yet even according to the statistics this man provides, the majority of college graduates had their employment prospects improved vastly.

40% of the increase (and more importantly, almsot two-thirds of the TOTAL) did not go to low-skilled jobs.

That's great, but if only 67% of college students go to skilled jobs, we have FAR too many people going to college. (Which has been my position for some time.)

One-third of the people going to college go to low-skilled jobs? That's a great scam colleges have.

[MillCreek]

I have always said that college as education vs. college as job-training are often two different things.  I have also often thought that it is a pity that the US does not have a more robust alternative educational track in the trades.  I have done a lot of reading on this, and particularly admire the German approach to vocational training.  Very impressive.

[MicroBalrog]

That's great, but if only 67% of college students go to skilled jobs, we have FAR too many people going to college. (Which has been my position for some time.)

One-third of the people going to college go to low-skilled jobs? That's a great scam colleges have.

What includes low-skilled jobs? Care to post the BLS list?

[roo_ster]

What includes low-skilled jobs? Care to post the BLS list?

Uh, that is a LOT of data.  Likely to bump into and mutilate the character number limit for posts.

Here's a place to start:
http://www.bls.gov/emp/home.htm#tables
ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ep/ind-occ.matrix/occupation.xls


Another profound point is the loss in educational productivity.

[MicroBalrog]

What is educational productivity?

[Racehorse]

The purpose of education is not limited to increaasing your job prospects.

True, but I'd wager at least more than half of college students are there solely to increase their job prospects. I'd actually bet it's closer to 80 or 90%. How many people would really choose college if it weren't increasingly a necessity or a perceived necessity for even low-level, helper monkey jobs?

I don't think I'd have chosen college if it weren't for the anticipated career benefit. I know I wouldn't have pursued a Master's (MBA) without expecting a hefty career benefit.

That said, I think the failure of college graduates to leverage (heh, buzzword :)) a college degree to get into a better job is their own fault and the result of their own choices. Too many people go to a community college expecting Ivy League career prospects. Too many students "follow their dreams" with no thought about the post-education reality of needing to eat.

[MicroBalrog]

The definition of a low-skilled job is not tangible. For example, bank clerks can be people without an education, but college education helps.

[roo_ster]

What is educational productivity?

Inputs in time/money relative to outputs.

In this case, comparing 12/13 years of schooling (high school without/with KGN) versus 16-18 years that would include a 4 year degree.

The definition of a low-skilled job is not tangible. For example, bank clerks can be people without an education, but college education helps.

Please, enough with the hair-splitting.  Yes, there are many jobs that are low-skilled.  I have worked some of them: landscaping, residential irrigation, warehouse work, truck driving.  The article in the OP uses two examples: wait staff and cashiers.

More generally, if your average person can learn the job with short or moderate OJT, (to use the BLS's verbiage), you're talking low skilled.

Meh, "bank clerk" is not on the list that I could find, but plenty of related jobs.  In the list's terminology, it looks like Short or Moderate-term on-the-job training.

Some sort of college education might help a bank clerk.  If one avoided any quantitative courses, I doubt college would help at all.

[280plus]

The main thing college teaches you is how to budget your time wisely. If you can juggle 12-15 credits a week and pull a 3.0 or better you have learned to budget your time wisely and that will always translate into better job prospects and most likely enhance your ability to perform once you've landed that job. That said, just because you can muddle your way through college it doesn't mean your any less of an idiot then you were when you started. Somewhere around 70-80% ( IMHO) of college grads are the type that partied and BSd their way through school on mommy and daddy's dime. Chances are those are the ones having difficulty finding work equivalent to their perceived education level. So har de har on them.

Reminds me of when I was teaching HVAC. Had this idiot in my class 3 months, showed him plenty of times how to use pipe wrenches. Halfway through his final he slams his wrenches on the floor and says, "These effin pipe wrenches are no good!!" The idiot had them on the pipe backwards ( they ARE directional ). Anyhoo, two years later I'm back in the field and bumped into him while I was on the job. He tore me a new one because he STILL hadn't been able to find a job doing HVAC. Like it's my fault he's an idiot. 

 

[MechAg94]

Yeah, you get out of college what you put into it.  I remember my cousin telling me about one of his high school teachers that said he partied 6 days a week and studied one, but my only comment was that was an education degree.  You can't do that with engineering unless you are really really smart or get low grades. 

Part of the problem at my high school was there was little or no career planning help at school at all.  I don't recall any "career days" or any sort of help with the question:  What do I do after high school?  The only reason I put any thought to engineering was I had one teacher for a class I didn't really need make us to do career reports on different jobs.  I did one on chemical engineering and thought it sounded good.  I ended up changing to mechanical engineering later because organic chemistry sucks. 

Now that I have spent some time working around chemical plants and around the industrial areas along the gulf coast, I see there are thousands of professional jobs, skilled labor jobs, unskilled jobs, and self employment opportunities out there.  If a person works hard and shows some initiative, they can move up, learn a lot, and make good money.  Hell, if you are smart and can get an associates degree, there are and will be nuclear plant operator positions around the country.  I know South Texas Nuclear is always looking for people.  I just hear the training for that job is very hard.

[MechAg94]

The main thing college teaches you is how to budget your time wisely. If you can juggle 12-15 credits a week and pull a 3.0 or better you have learned to budget your time wisely and that will always translate into better job prospects and most likely enhance your ability to perform once you've landed that job. That said, just because you can muddle your way through college it doesn't mean your any less of an idiot then you were when you started. Somewhere around 70-80% ( IMHO) of college grads are the type that partied and BSd their way through school on mommy and daddy's dime. Chances are those are the ones having difficulty finding work equivalent to their perceived education level. So har de har on them.

Reminds me of when I was teaching HVAC. Had this idiot in my class 3 months, showed him plenty of times how to use pipe wrenches. Halfway through his final he slams his wrenches on the floor and says, "These effin pipe wrenches are no good!!" The idiot had them on the pipe backwards ( they ARE directional ). Anyhoo, two years later I'm back in the field and bumped into him while I was on the job. He tore me a new one because he STILL hadn't been able to find a job doing HVAC. Like it's my fault he's an idiot. 

 

IMO, that is only true if you are working or have other demands on your time.  I had some 12 hour semesters where (in hind sight) I was bored as hell and should have been working more. 

Not everyone likes junior colleges, but I think that is a great option if you don't know what you want or where to go yet.  Much cheaper.

[KD5NRH]

"...approximately 60 percent of the increase in the number of college graduates from 1992 to 2008 worked in jobs that the BLS considers relatively low skilled—occupations where many participants have only high school diplomas and often even less."

Many times, I've had to prove I graduated from high school to work alongside fifth-grade dropouts.  They've had the job since the 70s, and I applied at a time when the company could afford to be a lot pickier.

I've let a number of certifications expire that have nothing to do with any job I've held in the last 8 years.  They helped get a few of those jobs, though, by showing employers that I could learn new skills quickly.

[MicroBalrog]

Some sort of college education might help a bank clerk.  If one avoided any quantitative courses, I doubt college would help at all.

The benefit of a good education reflects upon a person. I  would hazard that a man who spent 4 years in even a passable university would be a better clerk than a person who graduated from high school.

There was a time when high schools taught individuals to read the classics, understand Hobbes and Locke. This time is no longer. Such an education has an influence on a man beyond its direct content.

[Tallpine]

Well, for an example, I got a four year degree and then after a couple years I got so PO'd about accounting that I went back to logging for a while.

Then I got a chance to try my hand at software development. :)

[280plus]

IMO, that is only true if you are working or have other demands on your time.  I had some 12 hour semesters where (in hind sight) I was bored as hell and should have been working more. 

Agreed, I worked full time. 12 was enough 15 was too many for me.

[Tallpine]

Agreed, I worked full time. 12 was enough 15 was too many for me.

I took average of 15 credits/semester, worked 20 hours/week at the local hospital, served on a board of directors (startup organization, lots of work), was a church elder, taught sunday school sometimes, went to summer school, all with a wife and two young children.

My senior year I was running my own business.

I carried a 4.0 avg in my major but missed it by a couple hundredths of a point overall because I got an A- in one class.  All those A+'s that I got didn't rate any more points 

[280plus]

Damn...  

Guess that makes my 12 credits, 3.08 and the McDonalds 12 to 8 am shift look mighty lame...

Now I feel like such an underachiever  

 

I had a higher GPA but blew it on a C in "Discrete Mathematics" last semester. Long story but it was the only time I asked a teacher for a better grade and it was because I needed a C in a 200 level math to graduate. I told him, "Look, I need a C in this class to graduate. I'm a music major, I swear I'll never have to use this stuff anywhere." When I got my grades there was my C. 

[Tallpine]

Damn... 

Guess that makes my 12 credits and the McDonalds 12 to 8 am shift look mighty lame...

Now I feel like such an underachiever 

 

Oh, I forgot to mention that I was terribly sick the whole time - which was the reason for going back to school in the first place.

[280plus]

Ok, that's enough. I'm a slug, I get it. 

I suppose it was uphill both ways through the snow barefoot to get there too. 

[Tallpine]

Ok, that's enough. I'm a slug, I get it. 

I suppose it was uphill both ways through the snow barefoot to get there too. 

No, it was downhill on the way back home 

[zahc]

folks are spending 5 years and thousands of dollars to get a bachelor's degree that provides zero improvement in their employment prospects.

But it DOES increase your prospects. I'm living proof. The position required a master's degree. If I didn't have one I would not have my job. Period.

This is doubly annoying because as more and more people get degrees, HR departments are more and more likely to require them, because they are excluding a relatively small amount of applicants. It's definitely a bubble, but I wouldn't say that college 'doesn't increase you employment prospects'. The trouble is that you have to get one just to be on the level with all the slobbering idiots that also got one, or else you will be working underneath them no matter how smart you are.