Author Topic: Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks  (Read 19427 times)

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2005, 06:27:22 AM »
I think we've begun to bail via this dialog.  It just needs to expand exponentially...

THAT'S the hard part, I know.  But, I also know that there ARE more of us, there needs to be some kind of...
Rallying Point?  Source for info, position statement, and so on?
Sort of an expansion of Rabbi Lapin's perspective, only maybe a search for the same kind of perspective from the Goyim?  Or a more centrist, "this is not Christian or Jew, this is a group of people who love Freedom, God, Family and Country, and wish to protect, preserve, and promote our ability to live according to these shared values, and worship in our individually chosen ways.
No?

Strings

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« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2005, 08:07:55 AM »
ok...being a pessimist for just a second here: you're talking about forming a group that would be getting shot from every side. The liberals would hang us for mentioning God, the "Christian Right" would raise Hell about y'all "consorting with Jews and heathens". Etc, etc...

 In a nutshell, any formal "group formation" would probably be a bad idea. However, if we ddecide to actually try getting a movement going, I'll be linking this post to quite a few locations...

grampster

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« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2005, 09:35:03 AM »
Yeah, but Hunter the Apostle Paul once talked about that he was considered crazy by some.  He oppined that if he was crazy, he was crazy for Jesus and that was worthwhile.  Perhaps if we Christians are  already crazy in that regard, why not crazily continue to join with our brothers and sisters of Israel to reinforce our Judaeo/Christian heritage that made our country great and unique.  Rabbi Lapin just the other day saluted Christians for defending Christmas and that it was a good thing that we did that because to reinforce our religious American Christian heritage makes America the safest place in the world at any time for Jews.
I don't think we need to argue about Messiah.  Those of us who are Christians should remain strong in our faith.  Ditto for the Jews.  At the end of the day g-d will sort it out.  We are both His children.  
I believe exactly what Jesus said, that it is through Him that we reach the Father.  How that is accomplished may not be part of the present revelation.  I'm content in that I know the Jews have never been totally rejected by g-d, so it's pointless for me to do what He has not.  So why not join forces.  We have seen  how much good that has wrought over the last couple hundred years.  Is that not worthing keeping?
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Strings

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« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2005, 09:49:56 AM »
>reinforce our Judaeo/Christian heritage that made our country great and unique<

Umm... because there are some aspects (granted, they usually show up in those that don't actually follow the teachings of Christ, but profess to) of "Judaeo/Christian culture" that I, as a pagan, can't accept?

 I'm with ya to a point. But almost every time I've heard "Judaeo/Christian culture" (or just "Christian culture"), it's been a 'thumper trying to shove his religion down my throat. While I will give my life to defend your right to your beliefs, I expect the courtesy to mine.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2005, 10:20:08 AM »
Hunter Rose-- I have to say that I am surprised, and elated that you've 'hung' with this conversation until now.
I think we've stated the goals of this "movement"; conservatism, and allegiance to RKBA, God, family, and country.
If you're cool with that, (and I think you are) you have my sincere respect and you're welcome.

Quote from: HunterRose
you're talking about forming a group that would be getting shot from every side. The liberals would hang us for mentioning God, the "Christian Right" would raise Hell about y'all "consorting with Jews and heathens". Etc, etc...
What was the quote from the Two Towers by Gimli? High Chance of death, little chance of success...what are we waiting for? Wink

Fig

grampster

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« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2005, 10:47:59 AM »
Hunter,
Please don't misinterpret.  I'm not trying to shove anything (except maybe a chocolate covered donut, mmmmm) down anyone's throat.  I believe we as humans have more in common than we think, regardless of some of our beliefs.  We need to spend more time sorting through those and helping to keep things moving along smoothly.  As a pagan you shouldn't be any more suspicious of my motives than I am of yours; and I am not.  America is supposed to be the place of tolerance.  If that is true, mutual goals certainly are possible.
I think this conversation we are having is trying to promote that mutual respect.  I for one value your opinions and comradeship regarding those things that we hold mutualy.  Because we may believe in some other fashion in the spiritual sense allows for both of us to be able to broaden our perspectives.  You might find out that all Christians are not looking to burn you at the stake, and I might learn that eating children is not a pastime that you find edifying.  Tongue
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

richyoung

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« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2005, 01:43:35 PM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
ok...being a pessimist for just a second here: you're talking about forming a group that would be getting shot from every side. The liberals would hang us for mentioning God,
...this country is about freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM EXPOSURE to religion.  Other than legalizing drugs and butting out of the bedroom, I've little in common with the libs anyway...

Quote
the "Christian Right" would raise Hell about y'all "consorting with Jews and heathens". Etc, etc...
...as a member of the "Christian Right", I can assure that American Evangelicals, for the most part:

1.  Support the State of Israel.
2.  Consider ourselves "grafted onto the tree of life" that the Jews were always a part of.
3.  Are admonished not to gloat or otherwise demean Jews, because if WE, as "wild olive branches" are "grafted onto the tree of life", then how easy is it for US to be removed, and "tame olive branches, (Jews)" grafted back in out place?
4.  Know that without Judaism, there would be no Christianity.
5.  Have nothing but respect and honor for GGod's Chosen People.
6.  Beleive that Jesus was the Messiah, and that "No man comes before the Father but through Me" - certainly He can interceed for Jews if He chooses to - he was a Rabbi, after all...
7.  Will proselytize ANYONE given the chance - however, most of us know that the time and place has to be right, and most of us know that "Turn or burn" tactics are not effective at winning hearts or souls.  After all, "No man comes unto Me, but that the Spirit moves him..."
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

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« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2005, 01:49:35 PM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
>reinforce our Judaeo/Christian heritage that made our country great and unique<

Umm... because there are some aspects (granted, they usually show up in those that don't actually follow the teachings of Christ, but profess to) of "Judaeo/Christian culture" that I, as a pagan, can't accept?
Like what?
Quote
I'm with ya to a point. But almost every time I've heard "Judaeo/Christian culture" (or just "Christian culture"), it's been a 'thumper trying to shove his religion down my throat. While I will give my life to defend your right to your beliefs, I expect the courtesy to mine.
Like it or not, you live in a society founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs.  While you may regard it as "shoving his religion down my throat", (and I agree many of my compatriots can have more enthusiam than tact or skill in this area), perhaps you might find it easier to tolerate if consider that the "shover" is genuinely convinved thatyou are in peril, and is trying to save your eternal soul.  I can see how that can be aggrevating at times, especially if one holds radically different views.  But be honored that they cared enough about you to try.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Strings

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« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2005, 12:13:20 AM »
*sigh*

 Grampster and all: as INDIVIDUALS, I trust y'all: as much as I trust my Brothers and Sisters, which is saying alot. However, I've had 'thumpers make serious threats, as have many other pagans. So, when the average pagan hears "Christian values", we remember the 'thumpers (bad memories always stick better than good).

 I follow where you're going with this, and so far agree with what you're saying. However, PACKAGING your message will turn away many people, because of bad experiances...

Antibubba

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« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2005, 02:51:40 AM »
Hunter, the message has to be "packaged" somehow.  Even people who reject the "Judeo-Christian" beliefs can recognize it.  I've known and befriended many a pagan; like everybody else, they're seeking to make sense of the universe.  Often the values are different, but few pagans I've met are interested in the destruction of society.  The Rule of Threes, Karma, Reward or Damnation-they amount to the same thing: What you do will come back to you, in this life or in whatever comes after.  But there are a lot of people now who have no sense of immanence, not place or sense  of holiness, something greater.  They are the people we're concerned about.

Now that the Jews are no longered considered the scapegoats, maybe we can call Pagans "The New Jews"!  Cheesy
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

Strings

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« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2005, 08:33:49 AM »
>Hunter, the message has to be "packaged" somehow<

I know it does. I just thought I should point out that talking about "Christian culture" WILL make some people back away...

 And no,I don't have an alternative. Unless we want to talk about "American Values", which could be it's own can of worms. Really, *I* don't care what we call it, so long as we're people motivated to save our society from sliding into the abyss...

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2005, 11:01:09 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
I just thought I should point out that talking about "Christian culture" WILL make some people back away...
Including ME!  

The Crusades, The Inquisition, Christian Identity/KKK, Jim Bakker, Oral Roberts, God Hates Fags,
...I could go on.  

MANY things I am SO ashamed of...NOT that "Christians" have done these things...
But that sorely misguided, downright EVIL people have done these things while apropriating the name of G-d and Jesus as the reason they were doing what they did...

The Creator did not guide these people to do these things.
He's still Da Man.  The High Rama Lama.

Just because stupid &/or evil people use his name to claim right motives for their actions, doesn't give them ANY legitimacy.  It also doesn't indict the Creator, just because stupid &/or evil people...

Et Cetera, Ad infinitum.

Strings

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« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2005, 11:13:47 PM »
Oh, I have no problem with your God: occassionally, I get Him another convert. For the most part though, we've agreed that I won't pick on Him too much, and He won't incinerate me. It's a good working relationship between a Diety and a mortal... Wink

 I'll again quote my Sikh friend: "God is One, and we are ALL His children". One day, I'll scan the image and post it somewhere...

richyoung

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« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2005, 06:09:46 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
*sigh*

 Grampster and all: as INDIVIDUALS, I trust y'all: as much as I trust my Brothers and Sisters, which is saying alot. However, I've had 'thumpers make serious threats, as have many other pagans. So, when the average pagan hears "Christian values", we remember the 'thumpers (bad memories always stick better than good).

 I follow where you're going with this, and so far agree with what you're saying. However, PACKAGING your message will turn away many people, because of bad experiances...
My sincere appologies - I hadn no idea someone could be so misguided as to think that such behavior would be an effective evangalization method, or even acceptable among civilized folk.  Definately NOT what Jesus would do, IMHO.

Rich
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Strings

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« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2005, 09:53:27 AM »
richyoung: you can take ANY scritpure you care to name, for ANY faith, and twist it to justify acting however you'ld like. Do so, and there will be people willing to follow you. It's just one of the sad parts of the human race...

 If we get something started here, with multiple faiths working together to fix the problems in this country, you all will be yelled at for associating with "heathens". And I'll get yelled at for dealing with "Jesus-Freaks". Part of the trick to pulling this off is learning how to deal with the bigots (and teaching others NOT to be bigots)...

One of Many

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« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2005, 12:33:46 PM »
What would Jesus do?  That question is answered in as many different ways as there are people to answer it, based on the personal belief held by that individual.

A better questions is; What DID Jesus do?

Jesus taught a doctrine that had the religious leaders of the day so angry, that they conspired to commit murder, and induced people to perjure themselves in order to accomplish that murder (Jesus was murdered on the cross at Calvary).  Was that a teachng by Jesus of tolerance for dissenting religious beliefs?  I don't think so.  Jesus condemned the religious teachers of the day, comparing them to Satan.  He told his followers; Do not cast your pearls before swine (meaning that some people would never accept the word of God, and perform acts of obedience).

Jesus assaulted the moneychangers in the temple, and drove them out with sticks.  Was that a teachng of tolerance for criminal or dissenting religious actions?  I don't think so.  

A person who is trapped in false doctrines will never be converted as long as that person's belief is tolerated, and not challenged.  A person has to be convinced (usually against their will) that they are not acceptable to God, before they will give up ways that seem good to them, but fail to please God.

If what you are interested in is acceptance and harmony of purpose, you must agree to ignore (or accept without challenge) religious beliefs, and concentrate on secular issues.  That is how we happen to get along with fellow employees at our places of business, and how we get along in our recreational endeavors.  A common rule of getting along is to not discuss certain issues, such as religion and politics.

It is possible to discuss relgious doctrines in an unchallenging way for purposes of learning the differences in various doctrines, but that knowlege is useless if not later utilized for the purpose of converting persons of differing belief.

If a person never tries to teach others what his faith is, either by word or deed, he is worthless as far as God is concerned, and will suffer eternal punishment.



This country was founded to provide a nation where all religious doctrines were tolerated by the government, and none were banned (essentially a secular nation - not a Christian Nation as so many claim); there is no such thing as the commonly referred to "separation of church and state" in the US Constitution - there is only a rule that the government will not "establish" a religion by showing favoritism to any religious doctrines or organizations.  We work together in the national sense, to make this nation stronger, by ignoring the religious aspect (how do we please God) when we pass laws, using instead the concept of morality (which every religion has) and ethics to determine what is acceptable conduct for the people of this land.  

Every Good person recognizes that murder, assault and rape, robbery, false witness and lying, cheating and defrauding, etc. is wrong and needs to incur punishment.  The problem is in dealing with the severity of the consequences, and the subtlety of the distinctions we are faced with today.  An example of this problem is the issue of abortion.  People of strong religious conviction who believe that abortion is murder, are referred to as "Kooks and Nuts from the Religious Right".  Those that favor abortion on demand for convenience of the mother, think that the child is not alive, so it is not murder.  

Scientifically, there is no defintion of when Human life begins, even though laws have been written to protect the life of non-human species before they are fully born (or hatched).  The US Supreme Court ruled in Roe V Wade that some abortion is legal, because they could not determine when Human life begins (there was a failure to reach consensus between the religious and scientific consultants the Court used).   The condition of protecting the mother from physical or emotional harm caused by carrying the child to the point of birth, was the basis the Court used for allowing abortion.  As the years have gone by, we have seen the restrictions lifted to the point where it is now acceptable to have a child aborted when there is no danger at all to the mother; that is why there are so many challenges being brought to the court on this issue.  

My own perspective on abortion is that it is too easy; there needs to be a rigorous process to determine if the death of the child is more important than the risks to the mother of delivering the child at the end of term.

There are other contentious issues that divide the country.  Some of these involve the right to self-defense, because deadly force is often a part of defending oneself from violent attack (this is related in an obscure way to the matter of abortion - right to life).  A part of this conflict is the issue of dependency vs. personal responsibility; do we do the dirty work ourselves, or hire someone (police/military) to kill in our defense.  Those whose religion does not allow them to defend their own life from lethal attack, often do not seem to concern themselves with the thought that they are paying someone in a uniform (police/military) to possibly kill an attacker in their defense.

There is a time and place for accepting/tolerating people of differing religious beliefs, and a time and place for challenging those same people because of their beliefs.  The problem is knowing which time and place we are in, and thus which action is appropriate.

grampster

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« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2005, 01:59:19 PM »
One,

Very interesting thoughts.  I agree in principal with most of what you say.  Although I seem to favor expressing my religious beliefs by deeds rather than with my mouth, I have been disturbed enough by "street preachers" to check out what they were saying.  I once risked arrest by defending a street preacher who was set upon by a shop keeper who was lying to a policeman about what the street preacher was up to.  I gave the preacher my card and told him I would testify in his behalf if he went to court.  I actually did not approve of his methods.  He missed the opportunity to perhaps effect some creature that needed the truth by being obnoxious and annoying in his demeanor.  He spoke truth, but how he spoke it was not effective.  It's too bad because had he used joy as a tool rather than anger, he may have been more effective.  I'll never know that in this life, however.

  The old adage, "Actions speak louder than words" may, imho, cause folks to wonder about a person.  That may lead to conversation that portends core shaking decisions.

Oddly, I came to be a believer by being confronted by a prospective client.  But I was already on a self started mission to find what I was all about.  Personal misbehavior set me on this mission.  Had I not been in the position I was, that confrontation may not have gone anywhere.  I'll never know.

The Christian bible tells us to be a "lamp unto the world" and to not "cover that lamp up."  (I paraphrase)  The imagery is about behavior in my opinion.  We are also blessed with different talents.  The key is to find what it is.  It may not be what we want it to be.

Somehow, I think that if a person is truly seeking God, he will find Him.  There is a "cloud of witnesses" round and about.  Maybe if we, each of us, put a little more joy into our faith, that witness alone might attract.  Confrontation and angrily denouncing another's beliefs may work at times.  It is not for me, however.  Christ was angry with sin and he took action.  At other times he was docile in the face of it.  He went willingly to His death because He knew it was required.  He didn't want to face the horror of it, as He knew what was required of Him.  He was obedient, nonetheless.  By HIS stripes we were healed.  I don't think applying more stripes will have any more effect, as it is completed.

While we're on the subject of His death, it is wrong to blame Jews today for the necessary, prophetic actions of a few at the time.  For all you and I know, the ones that cried the loudest for his death, repented before they passsed.  "With God all things are possible".  We are accountable personally for our beliefs and acts.  It is wrong for Christians to be berating, hating or disparaging Jews.  "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."   "Do not judge lest you be judged in the same way you have judged others."  Contrary to popular myth, we are not called to not judge, but rather, if we do, we need to be very careful as the same standards we use will be applied to us.

I guess I'd be more inclined to become a friend first when I meet a new aquaintance.  At some point perhaps my behavior will cause a question, if he or she is not already a brother or sister.

Enough out of me.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Strings

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« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2005, 04:05:18 PM »
>He spoke truth, but how he spoke it was not effective.<

Preaching "Jesus loves you!" is a good marketing tool. Preaching "Jesus loves you, even though you're an abomination" is a good fight starter. Some need to learn the difference... Wink

 And yes, I HAVE seen both used...

 Now I think I'll lurk on this thread for awhile, and see if things can get beyond "my God's better than yours!"

Antibubba

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« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2005, 05:58:21 PM »
What I think of when I read what Hunter R has written is that "thumpers" are more concerned with Heaven than of Earth, and the people who are here.  One thing that Judaism and Paganism share is a reverence for Life-the idea of making the world a better place.  Christianity is focused on the afterlife-saving souls has always had a higher priority than life.  It is difficult to harm another when you believe that their suffering makes the world poorer; conversely, a lot of atrocities have been commited by those who truly believed that getting to Heaven outweighed all else, and that  forcing a conversion at swordpoint, followed by execution, was a kindness and G-d's will.  It's the same trap that Islam has been in for 200 years.  Luckily as Christians begin to embrace the idea of "being grafted onto the same tree", etc, the journey is becoming as important as the destination.  Still, there are too many who would cause me sorrow "for my own good".
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grampster

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« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2005, 07:21:29 PM »
Antibubba, Evidently you have not understood what I have been saying.  You rather would isolate and accept an idea that is in the minority and that which you fear rather than accepting the joy and acceptance that those like me offer you.  Why?
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2005, 07:04:21 AM »
I'm going to say that we're wandering off the topic of this thread's intent; that is, what we SHARE in common and how we can work together to promote common goals.

No one is asking you to accept another's credo or doctrine.
What I am asking is that we find common ground in advancing RKBA, and loving God, Family, and Country.

As we do so in a polite way, we *may* (some will, some won't) want to learn more about one another's closely held beliefs, as matis, grampster, HunterRose and I have done.

Others may be militant in their beliefs and unwilling to entertain/suffer the other fellow's beliefs.  If that is you, then IGNORE, don't feel you have to CORRECT the rest of us.

It's all a part of taking The High Road.
Fig the self-appointed hall monitor Wink

One of Many

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« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2005, 07:17:05 AM »
Where do people get the idea that it is a "Christian" policy to convert people at the point of a sword, and then execute them to make sure they get to Heaven?  Nowhere in my New Testament do I find any passage that commands, recommends, infers, or shows approved examples of Christ's disciples using force to convert sinners to the doctrine of Christ.  On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence that shows the Christians were violently persecuted for their belief and their teaching.  

Christians taught of a Heavenly Kingdom (spiritual - not worldly), led by the "King of Kings" who was lord over all nations. The leaders of the nations misinterpreted this to mean that a worldly war was being waged against their control over the nations they headed, and tried to destroy as many Christians as they could.  Christ told his followers to "turn the other cheek" when they were persecuted for his name's sake, not for them to take up arms and overthrow their secular leaders.

People confuse the Crusades of the European middle ages with a "Christian" holy war.  This was not a war for Christ, it was a war to expand the power of the Vatican, which is headed by the usurper that many refer to as the "antichrist".  The Catholic church is the result of a great apostasy from the teachings of Christ, which led to the creation of a political organization disguised as a religion, headed by a man that claims to be "the infallible word of God on earth".  A man that sets himself up as the "Holy Father" (Pope - a variant of Papa - the English word is father) to millions of worshippers all over the earth.  Jesus used the phrase "Holy Father" once when he was praying to God, and referred to God the Father numerous times.  

Christ taught his followers, regarding spriritual matters:

Mat 23:8  "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
Mat 23:9  "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Mat 23:10  "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

The teachings of Christ and the apostles organizes the Church into local units (and only local units), headed by men referred to as the "Elders" of the congregation, and assisted by other men referred to as "Deacons", all of whom must meet stringent qualifications to be entrusted with the responsibility of leading the congregation in accordance with the word of God.  Even with these qualifications being met, the bible teaches us that these men may fall into error and lead their flocks astray; they are certainly not infallible.

The Catholic church is not the only religious entity to appropriate the glory of God by assuming titles for men that are reserved for God.  The common use of the term "Reverend" when associated with a Protestant denominational preacher is also an usurpation against God.  God is the only being to be revered, and the only being to be so referred to in the scriptures.

Any religious group that names itself after the man that founded it, or a nation that sponsors it, or a doctrine that was created by man, is not giving glory to God the Father or to Jesus the Christ.  How can any man, or religious group, steal the glory due to Christ and God, and pass themselves off as "Christians"?

There have been many abominations done by men and countries, purportedly in the name of God (or Christ), that caused confusion and resentment against God by those victimized by those abominable acts.  When people teach or perform actions in the name of Christ or God, they should limit themselves to what God has taught his people.  To do otherwise is to blaspheme the name of God and Christ.


People of differing religious faith can work together to accomplish a lot of good in the worldy sense, because the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom with a spiritual message, that affects how people interact with each other during our mortal life.  Christians as individuals are taught to be responsible for their families, to work and provide for their welfare, and to be compassionate to those in need.  The work of the church is to spread the message of salvation through Jesus Christ, not to provide food and clothing, medicines and housing for anyone with their hand out.  The church is to take care of its own widows and orphans, not those of the world.  Individual Christians can (and do) contribute to needy individuals and to secular organizations that provide assistance to the needy.

Most people misunderstand what the term "Christian" means, because they have seen so many examples of words and acts performed under the color of "Christianity" that have nothing to do with what Christ taught.

Antibubba

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« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2005, 09:48:54 AM »
Grampster, I understood you completely.  As I understand all of you.

Fig, you're right-we've been going off topic, so let me try to head it back with this:

   We are defenders of the 2nd amendment, of the RKBA.  But as the framers pointed out, the Constitution does not grant the right, it merely puts G-d's law into a legally applicable format, so that all may understand it.  The right to defend one's life, family, and property from both thugs and rulers.  A law that recognizes the difference between murder and self defense.

   But not all of G-d's laws are equal.   Knowing that an armed citizenry will save lives and lessen crime, would the Rabbi be permitted to eat ham and lobster for a month if doing so would absolutely guarantee that a law permitting every American to carry outside the house would be enacted?  Not just permitted, but encouraged, because keeping Kosher is a lesser law than saving a life.  Only three Jewish laws are absolute:  One must not commit murder, one must not deny G-d, and one must not eat human flesh.  Every other law broken can be forgiven under some circumstance.

   One must not commit murder, and thus it would be just as serious to allow a murder to take place.  Allowing a person to prevent his own murder, or someone elses, thus can be seen as one of the highest devotions to G-d that man can make.  

   For us to form and thrive as an ecunemical (dare I say diverse?) group committed to preserving and expanding this particular aspect of G-d's law, each one of us must find where they rank RKBA.  As an evangelical you may be opposed to Gay Pagans, but can you put it in the "Time Out" corner long enough to work with a "Pink Rifles for Hermes" member on overturning a restrictive gun law?  And by putting it aside, I mean not stating every five minutes that you oppose homosexuality and Satanic practices and that he is surely going to go to Hell, but you're glad that he "get's" the gun thing.  Can the pagan set aside his resentment of being mistreated in High School by "Holier-than-thou" football players to not mention the Crusades or the Salem Witch trials?  Can an Orthodox Jew accept a refusal by a "Vegans with VPERs" member to try his mother's brisket? Wink  If you regard RKBA as one of G-d's highest laws, you will find a way.  If you cannot, then someone will not participate-either you or the object of your moral lessons.

   As an example of my own levels of tolerance, I could not work with a white supremicist or a Neo-Nazi-I simply could not let it go.  I might be able to work with someone from Nation of Islam because, although the philosophies are equally repugnant, the N of I didn't kill six million of my people.

   So can we agree to disagree on everything else and work together to defend RKBA?
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

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« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2005, 10:27:55 AM »
I get busy with finals and you folks get really deep!

Fig - back on topic  

I still contend there is a difference in "Religion" and "Spirituality" , still say it comes from within. Includes those persons aganostic, or athesitic - those too are  'belief systems' .  

Not discounting anyone's belief system - just food for thought. Everyone to some degree veers off what ever belief system they have. Human nature.

RKBA:  Well here is a true story, lady is now dead, customer of mine.  She was a little girl, when her family fled Germany using an Oxcart. They grabbed all they could, and what they needed. Jews with Russian heritage. They sold / bartered possessions to survive, silverware, went first, before it was all over , to have food and survive - they sold most all except the clothes, and  one small handgun.  Her mother bartered her wedding ring for that gun. They had to have 'funds for passage ( best she recalls) and her daddy had sold all his guns, even the one little handgun he kept back. Seems it was worth the risk to not get caught, especially with a gun.  Just somehow they came across another gun  to obtain, the wedding band that had been in family was bartered.

This lady , Russian Jew, her mom cut her hair really short and wanted her to look like a boy so as to not attract attention, her mom did the same to herself. She remembers crying at the hair on the ground,she cried at her mom's appearance,  she cried at her own reflection.

This Lady became a doctor, she was an avid supporter of RKBA, she and her family survived, one night the Bad Men tried to hurt "the three males"  ( Dad and the mom and daughter looking like boys) - her mom shot one of the Bad Men - the others ran away.  

"We could not practice what we believed except in speaking to our inner self, we had nothing of our Faith to practice with, we just had to flee and survive".

They dealt with other cultures, other belief systems to survive, never lost faith, just had to do what they had to to survive. She was really young, she was told in later years more things for clarity and some things she kept private - I respected that. What stood out - was folks with differences fought side by side to survive.

Often forgotten in today's society, often forgotten in dealing with RKBA as well.

grampster

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« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2005, 10:31:24 AM »
Antibubba,

Well said.  I think you hit the nail squarely on the head with how our breed of ecumenicalism should work.  We are all very oriented toward the rule of law as defined by our Constitution.  We are Americans and we realize that the rule of law will not work unless we participate in its upholding.  As Americans we should come together to defend our way of life, while at the same time respecting, as much as is possible for each of us, the views of our compatriots as they apply to other areas of our lives.  
+1.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw