PA Woman Arrested for CCW in NJ

[Ben]

She should have been more cognizant of interstate travel with a CCW, however one thing in the story threw me for a loop. She seems to be being charged for "hollow point bullets"? Does NJ have a prohibition on them? I've not heard of this before.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/16/honest-mistake-leads-to-philly-mother-facing-three-years-on-gun-charge/

[zxcvbob]

She should have been more cognizant of interstate travel with a CCW, however one thing in the story threw me for a loop. She seems to be being charged for "hollow point bullets"? Does NJ have a prohibition on them? I've not heard of this before.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/16/honest-mistake-leads-to-philly-mother-facing-three-years-on-gun-charge/

Yes.  They are not *totally* banned (you can use them at home; probably okay at the range too) but you can't carry them unless you're a cop or a mobster.  Even having a box of HP ammo in your car with no gun is probably risky.

[MillCreek]

This strikes me as similar in concept to that Marine in Mexico on the gun charge.  You gotta know the laws of the places you travel to, and if you don't, don't complain if you get caught.  I make darn sure that there are no firearms or ammunition in the car if we go to Canada, even if it is just crossing the border to go to dinner or a Highland Games.

[brimic]

This strikes me as similar in concept to that Marine in Mexico on the gun charge.  You gotta know the laws of the places you travel to, and if you don't, don't complain if you get caught.  I make darn sure that there are no firearms or ammunition in the car if we go to Canada, even if it is just crossing the border to go to dinner or a Highland Games.

That. Or it might just be easier to stay out of less free countries places.

[BobR]

Laws like this is why federal expanding full metal jacket exists, along with a couple of other brands that use a polymer ball to get rid of the hollowpoint, yet still expand like one.

bob

[wmenorr67]

What isn't clear about the article is that I read it as she was in NJ by mistake and got pulled over for an unsafe lane change.  What sucks is she was up front and honest about having the pistol.  Probably based on her training and knowledge of PA law with a duty to inform.

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

Just like the Marine in Mexico, I have no sympathy for people who are oblivious to their surroundings.

[cordex]

Just like the Marine in Mexico, I have no sympathy for people who are oblivious to their surroundings.

Emotionally I get the frustration you feel, but given our Gordian legal code affecting not merely areas that you and I are educated on, but every aspect of our lives, work and play, I tend to have a little more sympathy for people who unknowingly violate stupid laws.  Everyone breaks laws (many times significant ones), but most don't get caught.

[Ben]

Emotionally I get the frustration you feel, but given our Gordian legal code affecting not merely areas that you and I are educated on, but every aspect of our lives, work and play, I tend to have a little more sympathy for people who unknowingly violate stupid laws.  Everyone breaks laws (many times significant ones), but most don't get caught.

Yes, this. I'm sure everyone on APS has done something they could be arrested for, quite possibly a felony, and didn't even know they were breaking the law. The only reason we're not in jail is because we didn't get "caught". Had this woman had a CCW from some other state where declaring the weapon to LE wasn't a requirement, she quite possibly would have gotten her ticket and been on her way with neither her nor the officer the wiser.

Not to say that one shouldn't be thoroughly versed in firearms laws given the "gusto" with which they seem to be prosecuted, but it's simply not possible for us to know every law in every state anymore, if it in fact ever was. Because of that, I would prefer to see "spirit of the law" versus "letter of the law" enforcement by LE in many instances, including this one. Had she been trying to hide the weapon, different story, but she declared it because she thought that was the right and legal thing to do. Were I the officer, given that the story is accurate, I would have schooled her on NJ laws, told her to lock the unloaded gun in her trunk, and go home.

[brimic]

Yes, this. I'm sure everyone on APS has done something they could be arrested for, quite possibly a felony, and didn't even know they were breaking the law. The only reason we're not in jail is because we didn't get "caught". Had this woman had a CCW from some other state where declaring the weapon to LE wasn't a requirement, she quite possibly would have gotten her ticket and been on her way with neither her nor the officer the wiser.

Not to say that one shouldn't be thoroughly versed in firearms laws given the "gusto" with which they seem to be prosecuted, but it's simply not possible for us to know every law in every state anymore, if it in fact ever was. Because of that, I would prefer to see "spirit of the law" versus "letter of the law" enforcement by LE in many instances, including this one. Had she been trying to hide the weapon, different story, but she declared it because she thought that was the right and legal thing to do. Were I the officer, given that the story is accurate, I would have schooled her on NJ laws, told her to lock the unloaded gun in her trunk, and go home.

In the ideal world  with honorable people serving as sheepdogs all of that would be true.
In the real world, people must be very aware of where enemy borders lie. The policia of a corrupt country whether it be Mexico or new jersey care little about the laws of uppity peasants who inadvertently cross over into their fiefdom and would love nothing more thanto teach them a lesson by serving and protecting the *expletive deleted* out of them.

[TommyGunn]

Just like the Marine in Mexico, I have no sympathy for people who are oblivious to their surroundings.

That is unduly harsh, IMHO.  The marine was suffering from stress syndrome and was caught in the wrong lane at an entrance to Mexico that was confusing and marked with poor signage.  In fact I recall the signage was later replace with larger, better signage after this event.  One Fox News host drove the route and pointed out how easy it was for anyone to make the mistake he did.
Despite Mexico's inordinatly harsh gun laws, I fail to see why it isn't possible for a marine (or anyone, for that matter) who makes an honest mistake to report it to the border authorities and have them simply turn him around and reenter America; escort if necessary.  What harm does that do?  

[tokugawa]

It is not about harm, or common sense, or Spirit of the Law.
 It is about the New Lords, and the serfs.

[Perd Hapley]

Not to say that one shouldn't be thoroughly versed in firearms laws given the "gusto" with which they seem to be prosecuted, but it's simply not possible for us to know every law in every state anymore, if it in fact ever was.

It's worse than that. Even if you know the law in your state, and the neighboring states, the laws can change suddenly, and without fanfare. And now you don't know them anymore.

[Ben]

It's worse than that. Even if you know the law in your state, and the neighboring states, the laws can change suddenly, and without fanfare. And now you don't know them anymore.

This is very true. It was only because of APS that I learned my AZ permit was no longer valid in NV because of a change in NV law. AZ didn't send out notices or emails about it, and I'm not sure they would even have a responsibility to, given that it was stinkin' NV that changed their law. 

The only way I know to be safe anymore when going interstate is to, just before I leave, hit a couple of the better Internet sites on CCWs to check on changes regarding whatever permit (or permits, because sometimes I have had to carry more than one if I was going to multiple states) I'm going to use, and then check for changes in laws in the states I'm going to. That includes everything from checking the validity of the permit, to printing, to what establishments I can enter, to how to transport, to ad nauseam.

It's bad enough to have to do that for this one thing to ensure I don't get thrown in the pokey. I couldn't imagine doing it every time I go somewhere for every possible law I might break.

[lee n. field]

It's bad enough to have to do that for this one thing to ensure I don't get thrown in the pokey. I couldn't imagine doing it every time I go somewhere for every possible law I might break.

Quite a few years ago Analog (SF print magazine) had story.  One plot element was a somewhat balkanized America.  The main character kept a computer in his car whose purpose was to keep track of local laws, and warn the owner about local laws he might run afoul of.

[Blakenzy]

“You see John, any action against the throne must be punished ruthlessly, for that is the only way to maintain the absolute power of a King” ~

[wmenorr67]

A report I just read now states she was in NJ on her way to Atlantic City.  A change in the original story that she was in NJ by mistake.  With this new information I lose some compassion for her.  She should have checked the laws in the state she was planning on visiting.  It wasn't as if she was just traveling through the state.

[brimic]

A report I just read now states she was in NJ on her way to Atlantic City.  A change in the original story that she was in NJ by mistake.  With this new information I lose some compassion for her.  She should have checked the laws in the state she was planning on visiting.  It wasn't as if she was just traveling through the state.

I lose compassion for her simply because she wanted to go into NJ, gun or no gun.

[KD5NRH]

Despite Mexico's inordinatly harsh gun laws, I fail to see why it isn't possible for a marine (or anyone, for that matter) who makes an honest mistake to report it to the border authorities and have them simply turn him around and reenter America; escort if necessary.

IIRC, don't the El Paso/Juarez crossings have cloverleafs on each side just for this situation?  It's another easy one to get mixed up in.

[Triphammer]

I've accidentally driven into Mexico. Once. Twenty years ago a white bread gringo checking out the southwest for a possible move, driving around Nogales Az., when traffic slowed down and a Mexican border guard asking if I had anything to declare.  No place to turn around he waved me on(Thankfully) & I spent the next five minutes trying to find a place to U-turn. When I re-entered the US I got the stink eye from customs. I must have still looked panicked 'cause he laughed & waved me through.

[Boomhauer]

I fail to see why it isn't possible for a marine (or anyone, for that matter) who makes an honest mistake to report it to the border authorities and have them simply turn him around and reenter America; escort if necessary.

Well from what I understand he tried to do exactly that, and they told him to go on in and turn around, and then they *expletive deleted*ed him over when he did what they told them.

[RoadKingLarry]

I predict that NJ will make an example out of the woman. Harshest punishment possible.

[Hawkmoon]

What isn't clear about the article is that I read it as she was in NJ by mistake and got pulled over for an unsafe lane change.  What sucks is she was up front and honest about having the pistol.  Probably based on her training and knowledge of PA law with a duty to inform.

I don't think PA has a duty to inform.

According to Handgun Law PA does not impose a duty to inform. The officer has to ask before you are required to produce a license to carry.

Title 18 Part I. Article G. Chapter 61. Subchapter A. § 6122. Proof of License and Exception.

(a) General Rule. -- When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed
to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce
such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

[Hawkmoon]

Despite Mexico's inordinatly harsh gun laws, I fail to see why it isn't possible for a marine (or anyone, for that matter) who makes an honest mistake to report it to the border authorities and have them simply turn him around and reenter America; escort if necessary.  What harm does that do?

It's too simple, and too logical, and too humanitarian. Nothing that could possibly be countenanced by the feral government.

[RevDisk]

PA does not have a duty to inform.
 

Emotionally I get the frustration you feel, but given our Gordian legal code affecting not merely areas that you and I are educated on, but every aspect of our lives, work and play, I tend to have a little more sympathy for people who unknowingly violate stupid laws.  Everyone breaks laws (many times significant ones), but most don't get caught.

This. Ignorance of the law is not a defense, yet no human being can possibly know every law. It is not simply not possible, even if a person were to do nothing but read laws every second of every day.

Reasonable mens rea should be be a requirement of any significant criminal conviction.

Well from what I understand he tried to do exactly that, and they told him to go on in and turn around, and then they *expletive deleted*ed him over when he did what they told them.

Yep, I'd never under ANY circumstances do what he did. Screw em, stop the car at the border and let them arrest you for refusing to enter another country against your will. Still better than serving time in a Mexican prison.