Author Topic: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended  (Read 8544 times)

seeker_two

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2010, 10:51:35 PM »


The Justice indicated it is similar to someone shouting Fire in a crowded theater.  IMO, that is wrong.  EVERYONE agrees that a fire in a crowded theater is a bad thing. 


...unless, of course, there is a fire.....   :facepalm:

Breyer is a liberal...I expect him to be in lock-step.....  ;/
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2010, 11:16:41 PM »
Then those people were terrorists already and should have been and should continue to be shot as such.  If you think violence in a appropriate response to a Koran burning, a bullet is what you deserve.

 :facepalm:
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taurusowner

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2010, 11:46:56 PM »
Explain your  :facepalm:

Violence towards being offended is not an appropriate response.

Violence towards violence IS.

If I say something that offends you, you are obligated and required to NOT act out violently toward me.  If you do, violent action on my part towards you is entirely warranted.

These people have chosen to act violently because they were offended.  They should be shot.

MechAg94

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2010, 11:57:24 PM »
If a nitwit burning a Koran will endanger our boys and girls overseas, we either need to reevaluate our kids being over there, or reevaluate our strategy over there.
I am developing this opinion as well.  If these people are going to be so dense as to blame all the US and it's military for the actions of an unknown pastor in Florida, do we really need to be wasting lives and treasure fighting there? 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2010, 12:19:37 AM »
Explain your  :facepalm:

You are aware we are trying to set up governments in Afghanistan and Iraq that we can work with, right?  You are further aware that, to survive, those governments need to build support among their population, especially religious leaders, yes? And you understand that koran-burning back home makes that harder, yes?  Or were you unaware of this?

And then we have at least one well-known historical example of violence occurring, in response to (alleged) gratuitous koran-mangling, which would not have occurred in the absence of said allegations. Yet you ignore that example; and the opinion, experience and knowledge of the commander in charge of the situation.

Hence:  :facepalm:
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taurusowner

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2010, 01:38:28 AM »
How does any of that have any bearing on whether it should be banned or be on par with the "fire in a theater" example?  

I'm a soldier, who will be fighting in Afghanistan in just a few weeks.  If it came down to me choosing between an American doing something offensive and an Afghan local to violence, or suppressing the American so the Afghan feels better, my choice is simple: let the American exercise his rights, and if someone reacts violently, I'm prepared to put bullets in them.  Whatever relationship or government we are trying to build in Afghanistan or any other nation will always be secondary to the rights of Americans.  I'd sooner burn them all then allow the United States to trample the free speech rights of American citizens.

It's not that I'm unaware, it's that I don't care.  And yes, I am willing and will in fact be staking my life on that.  American rights trump absolutely everything.

roo_ster

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2010, 03:25:46 AM »
American rights trump absolutely everything.

Ragnar for Secretary of State!
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roo_ster

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dogmush

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2010, 08:12:36 AM »
You are aware we are trying to set up governments in Afghanistan and Iraq that we can work with, right?  You are further aware that, to survive, those governments need to build support among their population, especially religious leaders, yes? And you understand that koran-burning back home makes that harder, yes?  Or were you unaware of this?


I would also mention American civilians exercising their rights at home cause the government to not survive/lose the support of the population then that's not a government we can work with.

In other words, if this koran burning is really that big a deal (Afghan gov instability and violence) then we need to know that now, because they're going to have to be able to deal with this kind of thing.

TommyGunn

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2010, 11:27:08 AM »
How does any of that have any bearing on whether it should be banned or be on par with the "fire in a theater" example?  

I'm a soldier, who will be fighting in Afghanistan in just a few weeks. If it came down to me choosing between an American doing something offensive and an Afghan local to violence, or suppressing the American so the Afghan feels better, my choice is simple: let the American exercise his rights, and if someone reacts violently, I'm prepared to put bullets in them.  Whatever relationship or government we are trying to build in Afghanistan or any other nation will always be secondary to the rights of Americans.  I'd sooner burn them all then allow the United States to trample the free speech rights of American citizens.

It's not that I'm unaware, it's that I don't care.  And yes, I am willing and will in fact be staking my life on that.  American rights trump absolutely everything.

You might feel a bit different when it's one other member of your squad takes a bullet because of this ... the enemy gets a vote too.

Look, I fully support our troops over there.  I also support the Constitution & B.O.R.  And, yes, I suspect that burning Korans is "freedom of expression" even if it is a vile act, as would burning a bible or any other religion's religious text.


"And yes, I am willing and will in fact be staking my life on that." 
Bless you sir.  You'll be staking the lives of your team-mates as well.  Be safe! =)
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Tallpine

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2010, 11:57:41 AM »
Quote
You are aware we are trying to set up governments in Afghanistan and Iraq that we can work with, right?

Foolishness :(
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2010, 01:08:29 PM »
Foolishness :(


reality though.


i certainly don't support any type of legal sanction or prohibition against koran burning but can and do reserve my contempt and disdain for the "preacher" and his herd. 
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2010, 06:00:47 PM »
How does any of that have any bearing on whether it should be banned or be on par with the "fire in a theater" example? 

It doesn't.  Please try to keep up with the conversation.  Remember how you claimed that Petraeus doesn't know what he's talking about?  That's what I'm responding to.

But, yeah, I support the right of all Americans to burn flags, bibles, korans and crosses, on their own property, their own dime and their own time.
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longeyes

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2010, 07:56:27 PM »
Ah, Gen. Petraeus, the grand theoretician of the day.  We're in good hands...or are we?

June 28, 2010
5 Questions for General Petraeus

By Jed Babbin
In a hastily-assembled hearing tomorrow, Gen. David H. Petraeus will appear before the Senate Armed Services Committee as a prelude to his confirmation as the new top commander in Afghanistan

Petraeus – author of the military’s manual on counterinsurgency warfare, who commanded the counterinsurgency in Iraq -- should, and likely will, receive the unanimous support from the committee.  But the hearing should nevertheless be a forum for a penetrating analysis of President Obama’s policy in pursuing the war.

Announcing Gen. McChrystal’s relief and Petraeus’s nomination, the president was emphatic in saying that his action was a change in people, not policy.  But the nation-building policy begun by President Bush in Iraq and Afghanistan and continued by Obama, is – by objective criteria – failing.  It deserves to be dissected publicly, and Petraeus is the best person to explain how it could work.

Here are some of the questions that committee members should pose.

Question 1:  The latest report to Congress by the ISAF commander was submitted in April.  The report says, in part, that the Afghan insurgency “…has a robust means of sustaining operations.”  It mentions the availability of weapons and the fact that the Taliban has “consistent streams of money to sufficiently fund operations.”  The money comes in part from the opiate trade and, “Externally, funding originates in Islamic states and is delivered via couriers and halawas,” an Islamic informal banking system.

How can the counterinsurgency succeed unless these sources of funding are cut off?

Question 2: In his classic text, “Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice,” the late David Galula writes that for an insurgent to succeed, he must have a cause – political, religious, economic or social – that the counterinsurgent cannot also espouse.  The Taliban’s cause is Islamic fundamentalism, seeking to reimpose what existed in Afghanistan before 2001 and which is a dominant force in neighboring nations such as Iran and perhaps Pakistan.  That cause is apparently succeeding in Afghanistan.  The April ISAF report says, “[Taliban] organizational capabilities and operational reach are qualitatively and geographically expanding…The strength and ability of [Taliban] shadow governance to discredit the authority and legitimacy of the Afghan Government is increasing.”

What is the competing cause offered by the Afghan Government, and how can it be made more attractive than the Islamic fundamentalism that has existed in Afghanistan for decades or even centuries?

Question 3:  You would, presumably, agree that Iraq and Afghanistan are in many ways not comparable.  In Iraq, you had several advantages that are absent in Afghanistan, such as the rising of Iraqis against al-Qaeda known as the “Anbar Awakening” which apparently resulted from your actions in creating local security and gaining the trust of local sheiks.

What are the major advantages and disadvantages you foresee in Afghanistan and how do they compare with those you faced in Iraq?

Question 4:  The April report describes the Iranian involvement in Afghanistan in compelling terms. On one hand, Iran is giving some diplomatic support to the Karzai government.  But on the other, as the report says, “Most concerning, Iran continues to provide lethal assistance to elements of the Taliban, although the quantity and quality of such assistance is markedly lower than the assistance provided to Shia militants in Iraq. Tehran’s support to the Taliban is inconsistent with their historic enmity, but fits with its overall strategy of backing many groups to ensure a positive relationship with potential leaders and hedging against foreign presence.”

Can the counterinsurgency succeed without first terminating Iran’s lethal assistance to the Taliban?

Question 5:  Galula also wrote that an insurgency is a protracted struggle. He gives the examples of China (22 years), Greece (5 years), Indochina (9 years), Malaya (12 years) and Algeria (8 years).  The Taliban have been conducting their insurgency – in power and out -- since their movement began in earnest in about 1989.  British Prime Minister David Cameron has apparently set a firm deadline to withdraw British troops in 2015, and President Obama has established July of next year as the point at which we will begin withdrawing troops from Afghanistan.  In an assessment of Afghanistan last September, Gen. McChrystal wrote, “Failure to gain the initiative and reverse insurgent momentum in the near-term (next 12 months) -- while Afghan security capacity matures -- risks an outcome where defeating the insurgency is no longer possible."  We are now more than nine months through Gen. McChrystal’s year.  Last weekend, CIA Director Leon Panetta said that progress in Afghanistan is slower and more difficult than anyone anticipated.

The next major Afghanistan policy review will occur in December.  What measures of success or failure do you believe should be applied in December to decide the way forward?

President Obama once characterized Afghanistan as a “war of necessity,” but his strategy for pursuing that war has always been riven by internal inconsistency, doubt and disagreement within his team.  Announcing the troop surge in a speech to West Point cadets last December, he said, “As your Commander-in-Chief, I owe you a mission that is clearly defined, and worthy of your service.”  He said then, “Our overarching goal remains the same: to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and to prevent its capacity to threaten America and our allies in the future.”

Al-Qaeda was never the dominant force in Afghanistan, only a parasite feeding off a willing host.  To achieve Obama’s goal, it is essential to defeat the Taliban and prevent its return.

Petraeus should explain how that can – or can’t -- be accomplished in Afghanistan with Obama’s wavering policy.  If Iraq is the measure of the permanenance of what can be accomplished by the American method of counterinsurgency, the answer is clear: it cannot.

Jed Babbin served as a Deputy Undersecretary of Defense under George H.W. Bush. He is the author of several bestselling books including "Inside the Asylum," and "In the Words of Our Enemies."

Page Printed from: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/06/28/5_questions_for_general_petraeus_106122.html
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2010, 11:27:26 PM »
Which part of the article is relevant here?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2010, 05:12:38 AM »
Which part of the article is relevant here?


none  except as an attempt to portray the general as less than wise and that his objections to the noble actions of the florida cult leader and his ilk are to be disregarded. not a good attempt but a shot
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MicroBalrog

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2010, 05:44:30 AM »
Remember,  of course, that Gen. Petraeus had already won one war.

Here's the thing, tho:

For every one person that [may] do something violent over this, there are hundreds of thousands of Afghanis that will not do anything violent, and perhaps not even support the Taliban. But their support for American forces may diminish. You cannot shoot people for not liking US forces. It is not an issue that can be fixed with any number of strafing runs. Such a thing would, in turn, make it difficult for US forces to do their jobs, and perhaps even get people killed in an indirect fashion.

It is true that none of this detracts from the Pastor's right to do his thing, in the same way as it does not detract from the right of Cindy Sheehan to do her thing.

But what the Pastor attempted to do was not worthy of any respect, but was worthy only of condemnation.
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longeyes

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2010, 10:32:48 AM »
Brave soldier.  Smart man.  Not infallible.   No more, no less.  Whether he won one war already we will learn in time.  Iraq and Afghanistan are two theaters of a much, much wider war.  This is not written to disparage Gen. Petraeus, only to suggest that he isn't necessarily living Gospel when it comes to either counter-insurgency or overall battle strategy.  Just my opinion.
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longeyes

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2010, 10:39:25 AM »
Quote
none  except as an attempt to portray the general as less than wise and that his objections to the noble actions of the florida cult leader and his ilk are to be disregarded. not a good attempt but a shot

Over time our military, thanks to the political and cultural winds, has to some extent replaced "killing people and breaking things" with social work, with outreach, with "interfacing with local communities."  Maybe this is noble, wise, and pragmatic; maybe not.  In time we will know whether in this case, or in any case, the approach avails.

For the record, I do not support the actions of Mr Jones.  His intemperate foolishness, however, did dramatize, I'm afraid, what we are up against: even greater, deeper intemperateness among our enemies.
"Domari nolo."

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Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

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Tallpine

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Re: Free Speech, unless, of course, violent terrorists get offended
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2010, 11:25:18 AM »
Quote
You cannot shoot people for not liking US forces.

Nope.  Just waterboard them until they see how likable we are.   =D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin