Author Topic: If someone posts their delusions on Youtube and has access to weapons...  (Read 3374 times)

Jocassee

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How hard should it be to get them committed?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5773663/Crazed-Youtube-videos-Oklahoma-shooter-shot-packed-restaurant.html\

Quote
Tilghman said he could hear 'tapping, crazy-a** tapping' and 'big cracks and booms' in his ceiling.   

'I even have my refrigerator attacking me. It's extra loud since we live in a matrix,' he said.

'The devil can make things louder as well, so it's pretty bad.'

Tilghman saw demons in living things as well, including gnats, squirrels, parrots and ducks.

One clip showed him in a park, where he filmed ducks quacking and told viewers they were demons laughing at him.

'See them acting strangely, just quacking around,' he said to viewers.  'These are all demons.'

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Fly320s

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How hard should it be to get them committed?

It should be very hard; a high bar.

People acting weird on Youtube is not new, nor is it proof of anything.
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RoadKingLarry

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I tend to agree with Fly320s but damn near every time we've had a nutjob go on a killing spree there have been numerous warning signs, often on open social media, that they weren't playing with a full deck and had a potential to be a danger to themselves and others.
While what we saw in the OKC shooters postings may not rise to the level of an automatic psychiatric hold, it damn sure seems to warrant at the least a prompt but friendly "welfare check" from the local police if stuff like that gets reported to the proper authorities.
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Scout26

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Instead of going after publishers like PragerU and other conservative groups, perhaps Zuckerberg and Google should look for whack-a doodles and get local PD involved.  I agree with both Flys320 and RKL, that the bar should be high for a involuntary hold, but perhaps they could be talked into getting help.
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fifth_column

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Investigating everyone in the country that posts crazy crap to youtube would require a metric crap-ton of man-hours.
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KD5NRH

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Investigating everyone in the country that posts crazy crap to youtube would require a metric crap-ton of man-hours.

Right, and YouTube is the tricky one anyway; you'd need voice recognition and OCR (for onscreen text) to pull video content into a sifting program.  Facebook, OTOH, is primarily text already, so it's a matter of figuring out which words and phrases to watch for, and what review process you're going to use before forwarding a flagged item to LE for further action.  Then you have the first few weeks, where it's either missing tons (as determined by review of user-submitted reports not also flagged by the computer, and/or having an entire department reviewing millions of false positives.

Hawkmoon

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Quote from: Jocassee
How hard should it be to get them committed?

It should be very hard; a high bar.


The bar should be high for commitment, but what about for evaluation?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 10:59:04 AM by Hawkmoon »
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100% Politically Incorrect by Design

MechAg94

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What does evaluation mean?  Does that mean they get hauled off to a hospital against their will for a few days or does it just mean someone stops by to talk to them?  Any law should define that explicitly as I can see enforcement types and/or judges stretching anything the law allows. 

The main issue to me is that no matter what anyone thinks the benefits are, there needs to be near zero chance of someone getting committed or otherwise harassed by mistake.  And there ought to be criminal penalties and/or civil liability for mistakenly committing someone.  It really should be something people don't really want to do.
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Jocassee

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Investigating everyone in the country that posts crazy crap to youtube would require a metric crap-ton of man-hours.

It's not about monitoring everyone. It's about factoring stuff on the internet into human intelligence or concerned family members' reports.

I'm all about rigorous standards for committing someone against their will. And in fact the article indicates his family tried, and failed. Should they have failed? Or should the fact that this person was clearly delusional, and believed demons lived in his ceiling, in birds, and in quacking ducks enough to say, "Maybe we should try some new medicine?"

What about just removing weapons from his home instead of committing him? I will personally sponsor the Demon Ducks Gun Confiscation Bill. This guy was clearly not playing with a full deck. The available evidence leaves no doubt. He shouldn't have had guns.
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230RN

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MechAg94:

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Any law should define that explicitly as I can see enforcement types and/or judges stretching anything the law allows.

And there are times I suspect that any vagueness is deliberate.  
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 12:36:36 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

brimic

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What does evaluation mean?  Does that mean they get hauled off to a hospital against their will for a few days or does it just mean someone stops by to talk to them?  Any law should define that explicitly as I can see enforcement types and/or judges stretching anything the law allows. 

The main issue to me is that no matter what anyone thinks the benefits are, there needs to be near zero chance of someone getting committed or otherwise harassed by mistake.  And there ought to be criminal penalties and/or civil liability for mistakenly committing someone.  It really should be something people don't really want to do.

Once they get you in a system of subjective observations leading to subjective opinions, is there any objective way to prove that you were wrongly committed?
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Mannlicher

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this issue has always been a bit of a conundrum.  The real problem I see, is just who decides the criteria to be used with an involuntary intervention.    You could easily imagine an intervention with the only criteria being your membership in the NRA.

dogmush

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Just as an alternative:

We could accept that living as a free people carries with it inherent risks, one of which is that some people will be free to be bad.  We could allow people to have the best tools available to defend themselves against folks committing evil, and as a society work to punish folks that have committed unprovoked violence against others.

Why should we even entertain the idea of all the risks posited above for an infinitesimal percentage* of the population that might decide to shoot up some demons?


*There are 320 million people in the US. even if there was one crazy mass shooter/day (and there isn't) that would be .0001% of the US per year goes "Mass Shooter Crazy".  I'll take my chances, thanks anyway.

MechAg94

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Once they get you in a system of subjective observations leading to subjective opinions, is there any objective way to prove that you were wrongly committed?

That is a good way to put it.  I am not sure we know how to judge whether someone is likely to commit violence if they haven't actually done so or threatened to do it. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

brimic

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Just as an alternative:

We could accept that living as a free people carries with it inherent risks, one of which is that some people will be free to be bad.  We could allow people to have the best tools available to defend themselves against folks committing evil, and as a society work to punish folks that have committed unprovoked violence against others.

Why should we even entertain the idea of all the risks posited above for an infinitesimal percentage* of the population that might decide to shoot up some demons?


*There are 320 million people in the US. even if there was one crazy mass shooter/day (and there isn't) that would be .0001% of the US per year goes "Mass Shooter Crazy".  I'll take my chances, thanks anyway.

Cue in: "But I don't want to be responsible for my own well being" and "There ought to be a law!"
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MechAg94

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Just as an alternative:

We could accept that living as a free people carries with it inherent risks, one of which is that some people will be free to be bad.  We could allow people to have the best tools available to defend themselves against folks committing evil, and as a society work to punish folks that have committed unprovoked violence against others.

Why should we even entertain the idea of all the risks posited above for an infinitesimal percentage* of the population that might decide to shoot up some demons?


*There are 320 million people in the US. even if there was one crazy mass shooter/day (and there isn't) that would be .0001% of the US per year goes "Mass Shooter Crazy".  I'll take my chances, thanks anyway.
Yeah, given all the questions, can you really get to the point of determining beyond a reasonable doubt that someone should be imprisoned (in a mental hospital) when they haven't actually committed any crimes or violence?    

I think this is especially true since such a person might be in for more time locked up than a lot of actual violent criminals. 
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Hawkmoon

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What does evaluation mean?  Does that mean they get hauled off to a hospital against their will for a few days or does it just mean someone stops by to talk to them?  Any law should define that explicitly as I can see enforcement types and/or judges stretching anything the law allows.  

The main issue to me is that no matter what anyone thinks the benefits are, there needs to be near zero chance of someone getting committed or otherwise harassed by mistake.  And there ought to be criminal penalties and/or civil liability for mistakenly committing someone.  It really should be something people don't really want to do.

In my state, and in a number of other states I'm aware of, an involuntary evaluation is three days. It requires a court order. It is NOT legally classified as an involuntary commitment -- but it can lead to same.

Check the laws of your state, and you'll probably find that this is already on the books, and has been for many years. The question is simply whether or not posting crazy rants on Youtube or social media should be grounds for a judge to order an evaluation.
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100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Jamisjockey

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The standard should only be
1) they've made a threat against someone or to do something harming someone
2) they've filmed themselves doing something illegal
THAT'S IT.  Period.  Full stop.
Anything more and we're entering full nanny state, giving up rights, and opening up pandora's box to 1984.
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Fly320s

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The available evidence leaves no doubt. He shouldn't have had guns.

Says you.  I see a free adult who should have all the rights a free adult has in this country.  The proper solution is this:

Quote
We could accept that living as a free people carries with it inherent risks, one of which is that some people will be free to be bad.  We could allow people to have the best tools available to defend themselves against folks committing evil, and as a society work to punish folks that have committed unprovoked violence against others.
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lupinus

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It's a tricky slippery slope rope for abuse. Yes, there needs to be a way to commit someone, against their will, who is crazy and nuts to the point they are an extreme danger to themselves and others.

The problem comes in that what is the bar, who sets the bar, and who makes sure the cases are actually above that bar. And I'm sorry being a little off center, hell so off center the cheese is about to slide off the cracker, in and of itself isn't enough. And the system is ripe for abuse. It wasn't long ago being gay was a mental disorder. It wasn't long ago jerking off reguarly was considered a mental disorder.

So yeah, while I'm sure there's a bar, it's a damn tricky one. And we shouldn't be seeking it out. I'd say right now,if a family member is full on off their *expletive deleted*ing rocker, make it more accessible to get a power of attorney that let's the family have the person evaluated and possibly committed. For folks like the homeless in the ER for the third time this month that's been eating his own *expletive deleted*it and giving names to the maggots in his infected foot, have a process there too.

But it needs to be a DAMN high bar, an even higher one for the evaluation to commit someone against their will, and big penalties for those that abuse it. And the more I think about it, the more I distrust the government to meet those standards and like domushes answer.

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Perd Hapley

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How about delusional, and the only weapons they have are gardening tools, and whatever's in the kitchen? Wherever we're drawing the line, do we really want access to weapons to figure into it?
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KD5NRH

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What does evaluation mean?  Does that mean they get hauled off to a hospital against their will for a few days or does it just mean someone stops by to talk to them?

Barring an explicit threat, it would need to be a multi-stage process, with some additional caveats.

Initial process
1. Posting is flagged by software, or reported by other users for review
2. Reasonable human looks over it.  (Bonus; this would require many social media companies to outsource to the real world, thus creating jobs outside California.)
3. Supervisor confirms human's assessment and forwards to LE.
Professional evaluation phase
4. LE agency assesses, and decides to move forward.
5. Someone with proper mental health and threat evaluation skills assesses the posting.  Each step from here on needs to have a progressively higher "continue the process" bar.
Direct evaluation and action phase
6. Someone with proper mental health evaluation skills makes contact with the poster.  This would be the first time the subject knows anything is being done.
7. Independent outpatient evaluation at the person's convenience.
8. Involuntary commitment for final evaluation and treatment.

The step 5, 6 and 7 evaluations should be in two stages; first a "clean slate" assessment of only the current situation, then once that is complete and fully documented, the evaluator should be given access to all relevant history for an overall assessment.  (Obviously, in some areas, this won't be possible on repeat investigations, since there may only be a few people in a reasonable distance with the proper training.  However, by that point, the process should be moving either towards action against the subject or a full investigation of possible harassment.)
At any step, the evaluator should be able to stop the process entirely, at which point all steps leading up to that should be subject to internal and then independent review to determine whether it was reasonable to even start the process, and those improperly advancing it through the process should be held liable if it's found unreasonable.  (Since we all know there are liberal CLEOs out there who would use this to harass various gun owners and others, and step 4 is the first point at which liability should be significant - it's not reasonable to expect every forum to have a staff of professional threat assessors, but any LE agency should at least have access to someone trained in that.)  They should also be able to put the process on hold if it's somewhere between "this is nothing" and "this requires further action at this time."  In any case, all records would be kept at both local and state level unless a completely unfounded complaint is ordered by a court to be removed or sealed.  Obviously, if there's sufficient evidence of truly illegal activity, then the normal criminal process can take over at any point as well.  
Barring a definite illegal act that would allow the court to order confinement anyway, though, step 8 should require two or more completely independent evaluations that unanimously conclude the person is a clear threat to others and a court order to make it happen.  Most likely, at least stage 8, and possibly 5, 6 and 7 as well, would be handled at the state level.  4 should probably be handled locally, but with direct state oversight.  (i.e. state should be getting copies of everything for step 4 and beyond, whether they handle it prior to 8 or not.  This way, local LE have the chance to say "yup, Earl's been a problem for years, but we've never had the ability to move forward with anything yet" or "Earl runs his mouth a lot, but he's got severe Parkinson's and no legs, so he's not really going to do anything," while the state will be able to see that they have 7,960 credible reports against the mayor's son but have immediately dismissed each one as unfounded so as not to risk his probation from when he got busted out of state where they couldn't protect him.)
Of course, all costs need to be borne by the state and/or local government.  The subject should not be held liable for any cost of an evaluation demanded by the state, and plenty of people simply can't come up with a few hundred extra to go pay a counselor or psychologist for the office visit.  This would also discourage abuse of the system at the LE level, since they're going to have to justify the cost of any evaluations ultimately deemed unnecessary to the same people who determine their budget.

RoadKingLarry

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The standard should only be
1) they've made a threat against someone or to do something harming someone
2) they've filmed themselves doing something illegal
THAT'S IT.  Period.  Full stop.
Anything more and we're entering full nanny state, giving up rights, and opening up pandora's box to 1984.

How many times have we seen actual threats ignored? How many times have concerned family reported their fears to law enforcement and been ignored or the report has "fallen through the cracks"? We've had mental health "professionals" with knowledge that their patient was batshit crazy and a threat to himself and others and not reported? (Aurora shooter).
We can have a system where potential problems are "looked in to" without violating people's rights.
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KD5NRH

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How about delusional, and the only weapons they have are gardening tools, and whatever's in the kitchen? Wherever we're drawing the line, do we really want access to weapons to figure into it?

Not really, no; if someone can't be trusted with a gun, they shouldn't be trusted with a car, and anyone with a few hundred bucks can find a Craigslist beater with a seller that doesn't care whether they have a license or not.

(Something that always bugs me about heist movies too; they steal a car several hours ahead of the big heist, meaning it may already be on the hot sheets by the time they get to the scene.  If you're spending thousands on other gear, why not ~$1500 to have someone otherwise uninvolved go pick up a nondescript beater, then report it stolen about a half hour after you ditch it?)

MechAg94

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Barring an explicit threat, it would need to be a multi-stage process, with some additional caveats.

Initial process
1. Posting is flagged by software, or reported by other users for review
2. Reasonable human looks over it.  (Bonus; this would require many social media companies to outsource to the real world, thus creating jobs outside California.)
3. Supervisor confirms human's assessment and forwards to LE.
Professional evaluation phase
4. LE agency assesses, and decides to move forward.
5. Someone with proper mental health and threat evaluation skills assesses the posting.  Each step from here on needs to have a progressively higher "continue the process" bar.
Direct evaluation and action phase
6. Someone with proper mental health evaluation skills makes contact with the poster.  This would be the first time the subject knows anything is being done.
7. Independent outpatient evaluation at the person's convenience.
8. Involuntary commitment for final evaluation and treatment.
  
I think what concerns most people is what the standard is for moving from 6 to 7 and to 8.  Those are the points where someone can get their life really fouled up.  How do we prevent those steps from getting too easy? 
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