Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on July 15, 2021, 10:03:01 PM
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I need to know what the prevailing wisdom is for putting out Tesla fires. Water, dry chemical, ? ? ?
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Not a FF, but it seems like water is the most common.
Tesla batteries are just Li-ion AA-sized batteries, similar to what is in a laptop. In a Tesla, there are a crap ton of those batteries all duct-taped together.
To fight a Li-ion battery fire, we airline types are told to use water to extinguish the flames and then use ice to cool the battery to prevent re-ignition.
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Tesla batteries are just Li-ion AA-sized batteries, similar to what is in a laptop. In a Tesla, there are a crap ton of those batteries all duct-taped together.
Small corrections:
Most laptops these days use flat LiPo packs, not 18650 based batteries that used to be common in laptops.
18650 batteries are much larger than AA batteries.
Tesla has been moving toward even bigger batteries than the 18650s they used to use. They have used 2170 and I believe are now using 4680s.
As batteries are about 14mm in diameter and 40mm long. Compare that to 18650 at 18mm diameter and 65mm long, or 2170 at 21mm diameter and 70mm long, or 4680 at 46mm diameter and 80mm long.
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Holy crap, if the information in this article is correct, these batteries could REALLY advance EV technology and acceptance...
https://fcpp.org/2020/12/26/the-tesla-4680-battery-six-things-to-know/
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And then there's this...
"As an added bonus, Tesla won’t have cobalt in their batteries anymore, that means no more memes about children in the Congo!"
OMG! Tesla is robbing people of jobs!
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Any more info on fire fighting?
I need to know because I'm looking at plans for an assisted living center that's planning on parking up to ten battery-powered EVs in a basement parking garage, with conventional sprinkler protection. What little information I have found is conflicting. Some sources call from ABC dry chemical, while other sources call for water -- but LOTS of water. One fire chief reported using 28,000 gallons of water to extinguish a single Tesla fire -- he said that's normally what his department uses in a month.
I need to find out if we need to require a different kind of fire protection system, or maybe a sprinkler system with more water flow -- or maybe not allow them to park EVs in the basement.
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https://sprinkler.nl/sprinklers-controleren-brand-parkeergarage-epe/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents
Looks like at least a couple of incidents were controlled by traditional sprinkler systems.
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Look on page 23:
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf
and https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-training/articles/tesla-on-fire-how-to-extinguish-an-electric-car-fire-n8dDvmqLHqggmoXr/
and https://www.fireengineering.com/technical-rescue/its-not-just-another-vehicle-fire/#gref
All of this suggests that high-volume sprinkler systems would be the way to go.
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I think this is something NFPA is actively looking into.
That said, if you're looking to make professional recommendations with regards to the fire protection of a structure, I would advise you to follow the standards set forth in the relevant building codes as adopted in your jurisdiction. Probably NFPA88A, but might actually be somewhere else in the NFPA or ICC codes as this is attached to a commercial structure that people live in. Don't know, not my specialty. These codes may be lagging behind the risks imposed by emerging technology, but as I understand your job, you are tasked with ensuring structures meet existing established standards - not inventing your own based on things you've read online. I would further advise against taking advice from random unqualified individuals on an internet message board.
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I would further advise against taking advice from random unqualified individuals on an internet message board.
Except this advice!
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Any more info on fire fighting?
I need to know because I'm looking at plans for an assisted living center that's planning on parking up to ten battery-powered EVs in a basement parking garage, with conventional sprinkler protection. What little information I have found is conflicting. Some sources call from ABC dry chemical, while other sources call for water -- but LOTS of water. One fire chief reported using 28,000 gallons of water to extinguish a single Tesla fire -- he said that's normally what his department uses in a month.
I need to find out if we need to require a different kind of fire protection system, or maybe a sprinkler system with more water flow -- or maybe not allow them to park EVs in the basement.
Call Tesla and ask them what they recommend. I promise you they’ve had to do tests and work out procedures. That way you have the recommendations from the manufacturer itself.
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I would further advise against taking advice from random unqualified individuals on an internet message board.
I would characterize us more as random idiot savants on an internet message board.
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When did we get upgraded with the savant qualifier?
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I think this is something NFPA is actively looking into.
That said, if you're looking to make professional recommendations with regards to the fire protection of a structure, I would advise you to follow the standards set forth in the relevant building codes as adopted in your jurisdiction. Probably NFPA88A, but might actually be somewhere else in the NFPA or ICC codes as this is attached to a commercial structure that people live in. Don't know, not my specialty. These codes may be lagging behind the risks imposed by emerging technology, but as I understand your job, you are tasked with ensuring structures meet existing established standards - not inventing your own based on things you've read online. I would further advise against taking advice from random unqualified individuals on an internet message board.
I've been doing this long enough to know that issues are never a problem until someone dies -- at which point everyone wants to know why "the authorities" didn't do more to anticipate and prevent the problem from occurring. Yes, the job is to enforce the regulations -- the question then becomes what regulations apply? The entire building (including the garage) will be sprinklered, so that opens NFPA 13. But the design of a sprinkler system involves variables, such as the spacing between the heads, the discharge pattern of the heads, the amount of water the heads allow to flow once opened, and the length of time the required amount of water flow has to be maintained. Ultimately, the determination lies with the fire marshal, not with my department. But the fire marshal is up to his eyeballs dealing with an illegal occupancy of a former college dormitory building by busloads of families from some inner city, so he's leaning on us to help him gather information.
The fire department can call the NFPA for advice, and that's what I hope the FM will do. I'm not a dues-paying member of the NFPA so they won't talk to me. I can call the ICC (of which I am a member), but the IBC sprinkler chapter just cites NFPA13, so I don't expect any help from the ICC.
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I'm fifteen years removed from shipboard firefighting but as I recall class Delta fires got thrown overboard as fast as possible because you just can't extinguish them. And we had every firefighting agent available: water, foam, CO2, PKP, APC, and HALON's 1211 and 1301. Our drill for burning metal was always "get rid of it right the frack now!" This was a thing for Navy damage control because aircraft crashes/fires tend to come with magnesium or titanium parts that like to go fwoosh when broken up in burning JP-5.
So in short, stand back and prevent secondary fires while the lithium fire burns itself out.
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I would characterize us more as random idiot savants on an internet message board.
Not too far off the mark. =D
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When did we get upgraded with the savant qualifier?
When I came back.
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Any more info on fire fighting?
I need to know because I'm looking at plans for an assisted living center that's planning on parking up to ten battery-powered EVs in a basement parking garage, with conventional sprinkler protection. What little information I have found is conflicting. Some sources call from ABC dry chemical, while other sources call for water -- but LOTS of water. One fire chief reported using 28,000 gallons of water to extinguish a single Tesla fire -- he said that's normally what his department uses in a month.
I need to find out if we need to require a different kind of fire protection system, or maybe a sprinkler system with more water flow -- or maybe not allow them to park EVs in the basement.
No way to store them in a carport separated from the main structure?
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We are just volunteers around here. All we have is water so that is what will be used if we ever have a battery fire.
If it's close to a farm I guess we could try to bury it. But this is coal country so that might go the wrong way.
I guess we could drop it in a strip pit.
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So in short, stand back and prevent secondary fires while the lithium fire burns itself out.
The problem with that is that those fires burn hot. There's a reinforced concrete floor-ceiling assembly above the garage, with two stories of living quarters for Alzheimers patients sitting on top of the concrete slab. Hot fires cause the reinforcing steel in concrete to lose tensile strength -- at which point the structure collapses. If that's a possibility here -- and I'm not sure that it is -- I want to be sure that I have at least done my due diligence so that if there's a problem and someone asks 'Why didn't the authorities do more to prevent this?" I can feel comfortable that my department did its best -- within the limitations established by the codes we enforce.
No way to store them in a carport separated from the main structure?
Not in the plans submitted to us for review. And I doubt there's enough room on the site -- it's pretty tight as it is.
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We are just volunteers around here. All we have is water so that is what will be used if we ever have a battery fire.
If it's close to a farm I guess we could try to bury it. But this is coal country so that might go the wrong way.
I guess we could drop it in a strip pit.
You won't be moving a metal fire after it gets going. Jettison was only a possibility for us because we could use an aircraft tractor driven by a dude dressed like a baked potato (proximity suit) to plow the burning aircraft over the side and into the ocean.