Author Topic: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law  (Read 23138 times)

De Selby

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2012, 06:30:45 PM »
The best solution is to collect the fee when you register the car - ie pay your liability bill for the year at the same time as you renew registration.  That stops people from running the one day scam.  Governments don't like it because it makes their fees appear higher, but it's really the only way to insure the roads.
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roo_ster

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2012, 06:43:18 PM »
"Driving is a privilege not a right" is more government BS that the public has swallowed.  Driver's licensing and license plates should be what they really are, government revenue machines and nothing more than that.  Government should have no right to restrict your ability to travel from here to there unmolested, period, except for grabbing the revenue.

What grampster wrote.  "Driving is a privilege," my *expletive deleted*ss.  Also, I am in favor of doing away with license plates so that we can move anonymously along the roadways my taxes helped pay for.

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Azrael256

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2012, 06:54:29 PM »
Quote
Read it again.  It's not a random stop.  The stop is only initiated if a check of your license plate shows you to be uninsured.

Yeah, I can read, thanks.

So you're telling me that they're going to maintain a database of vehicles that are registered but not known to be insured.  Sorry, not buying it.

What will actually happen is a database of insurance policies tied to a plate and the absence of such an association will trigger a stop.  Lack of insurance is not a requirement for the stop as you seem to believe, only the state's lack of knowledge of it.

Stop it with the "might crime" nonsense and whining about wrecks with uninsured motorists (been there, too, btw).  You just handed the police another pretext for a stop, and you're falling victim to the kind of useful idiocy that will make the next law much, much worse.  Good luck with that.


ETA:  I hate to admit it, but De Selby is right.  No insurance for the renewal period of the plate = no plate.  That will ensure compliance.  It's impossible, but if you're going to enforce insurance requirements, it will make it fair.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2012, 06:58:48 PM »

So you're telling me that they're going to maintain a database of vehicles that are registered but not known to be insured.  Sorry, not buying it.

Nothing to "buy".  Chances are they already do it via notification from your insurance company, just not on a proactively enforced basis.



Also, I am in favor of doing away with license plates so that we can move anonymously along the roadways my taxes helped pay for.

Um, you realize that the revenue from those plates/tags funds a not insignificant part of those roadways, right?

Brad
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Azrael256

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2012, 07:19:36 PM »
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via notification from your insurance company

Which is instantaneous and always accurate, I assume.  I can be insured on any arbitrary vehicle in about ten minutes, and I doubt the state knows that before Monday morning.  So now you suggest a stop, or let's take it to the next obvious step and go for an automated plate read, and I'm ticketed.  While insured.

And yes, they do already do it.  That's how we are able to renew registration online here.  They are not always accurate, and I've seen that personally.

grampster

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2012, 07:48:34 PM »
There is only one way to insure compliance with having liability insurance in force for the vehicle license period.  That is requiring drivers to pay in full for the entire period for which the the license is valid and prove it.  Also the Insurance company must have the ability to refuse to cancel the policy and refund unused premium unless the plate and registration is surrendered to the insurance company and then turned over to the state.

If this process was implemented your BS new law would not be necessary.  Of course the bleeding hearts would never stand for it because the Po Folks can't afford to pay for the entire period the plate is valid.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2012, 08:06:34 PM »
So what happens when you hit me and you've got nothing for me to sue for?

You're screwed.

Kind of like how you are anyway if I'm un-/under-insured.  Or if the insurance companies don't play nice.  Or if I'm a deer.  Or if I cause you damage or injury in any way when I'm not wrapped in car. 

In other words, it is ridiculous to require by law that people limit their risk of being financially ruined by a lawsuit, but it is impossible to effectively require by law that people limit their risk of being ruined by bad stuff happening to them.  Even if the bad stuff happens when they're in a car.

*expletive deleted*it happens.  If you want to limit your risk of *expletive deleted*it happening to you, be careful.  Buy insurance--for your risk, or for your risk of liability, whichever.  If you want to avoid clogging up the courts with auto accidents, then sure, limit those cases.  And people can buy insurance to cover their risk.  But to pretend that no-fault laws are really good for anybody who isn't an insurance company is ridiculous. 

Governments should not be in the business of telling people which products they must buy from private companies.   

roo_ster

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2012, 08:17:27 PM »
Um, you realize that the revenue from those plates/tags funds a not insignificant part of those roadways, right?

Relative to fuel taxes, it is insignificant.  Remove the cost to administer licence plates and the delta is even tinier.
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roo_ster

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Boomhauer

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2012, 08:41:41 PM »
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You're screwed.

LOLWTF? So you ran the redlight and wrecked my truck (my BABY!) and I'm supposed to take it in the shorts?

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BridgeRunner

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2012, 08:46:51 PM »
LOLWTF? So you ran the redlight and wrecked my truck (my BABY!) and I'm supposed to take it in the shorts?

Life is risky, suck it up.  Or buy insurance to cover your risk.  

grislyatoms

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2012, 08:49:29 PM »
LOLWTF? So you ran the redlight and wrecked my truck (my BABY!) and I'm supposed to take it in the shorts?
Agreed. If I damage someone's property, I'm prepared to take responsibility for it. Is it outlandish to expect other folks to assume the same responsibility?

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BridgeRunner

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2012, 08:51:57 PM »
Agreed. If I damage someone's property, I'm prepared to take responsibility for it. Is it outlandish to expect other folks to assume the same responsibility?



Not at all. 

But it is outlandish to expect gov't to mandate that other people buy commercial products to ensure that they are able to do so at minimal personal risk, and to expect that system to really work effectively. 

freakazoid

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2012, 08:57:18 PM »
What would you do if someone destroyed something else of yours that is expensive?
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Lee

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2012, 09:10:59 PM »
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Governments should not be in the business of telling people which products they must buy from private companies.   

Not sure if I agree with that, considering the likely alternative is the government (you and I) paying for the consequences of an accident...perhaps 100's of thousands in medical, disability, SSI and whatnot.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2012, 09:26:16 PM »
Nothing to "buy".  Chances are they already do it via notification from your insurance company, just not on a proactively enforced basis.



Um, you realize that the revenue from those plates/tags funds a not insignificant part of those roadways, right?

Brad

Oklahoma started just such a verification database a few years ago. I think our "Tag Agents" (OKs version of DMV) can access it when you renew your registration.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2012, 09:31:28 PM »
Life is risky, suck it up.  Or buy insurance to cover your risk. 

But YOU caused the damage and didn't take responsibility for it in that case. It is not on ME to cover that. It is on you to cover it either through insurance or direct payment to me.

Now, if I cause a wreck, then it's on me to pay for it, again either through insurance or direct cash. Since I don't exactly have hundreds of thousands of dollars lying around, I have insurance. Just like I have insurance for aviation because again, I don't have personal $$$ to cover an incident.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 09:36:28 PM by Avenger29 »
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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Fly320s

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2012, 09:44:55 PM »
But YOU caused the damage and didn't take responsibility for it in that case. It is not on ME to cover that. It is on you to cover it either through insurance or direct payment to me.

Yes, but YOU can buy insurance to cover that risk. It is often called uninsured driver insurance.

If I severly damage your house through my negligence (non-automotive), do you expect me to have insurance to cover that?  Would you ask the government to mandate that everyone have personal liability insurance that covers all acts of negligence?

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Brad Johnson

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2012, 09:54:05 PM »


In other words, it is ridiculous to require by law that people limit their risk of being financially ruined by a lawsuit, but it is impossible to effectively require by law that people limit their risk of being ruined by bad stuff happening to them.  Even if the bad stuff happens when they're in a car.

It's not intended to limit your financial risk.  It's intended to keep you from screwing some other poor schlep out of their financial life just because you don't like being responsible enough to have proper liability coverage. 

And, yes, bad stuff does happen in a car so let's break that down... 1) By direct association the operation of an automobile means that said bad stuff will be happening on public roadways.  2) Public roadways are normally also crowded with other motorists in their automobiles.  3) Operation of an automobile means said bad things will involve large masses moving at speeds that can exceed 70 mph, and in a potentially uncontrolled manner.  4) Motor vehicle accidents routinely involve large expenses, ranging from thousands to tens of thousands in non-injury accidents, and amounts from tens of thousands to millions in the case of injuries.  5) Insurance and accident data unequivocally shows persons with the highest accident rate also generally represent the group most likely not only to be uninsured, but also to be involved in incidents averaging a higher claim amount and/or involving injury to others.

In other words the operation of an automobile represents a known potential hazard to members of the general public, a hazard which involves significant threat to life, limb, and/or livelihood.  That being the case it goes to reason that operation of a motor vehicle involves the inherent moral and ethical obligation of taking reasonable precautions to shield others from negligence in the event you are the at-fault party.  Unfortunately those most most statistically likely to be involved in an acccident are also those most likely to willfully disregard that obligation, choosing to drive uninsured and representing a significant financial threat to others on the roadway and representing a statistically higher threat of both injury and financial loss.  That being the case the states have enacted, and ligitimately so, the requirement for mandatory liability coverage

Also there's this...


  If you want to limit your risk of *expletive deleted* happening to you, be careful.  Buy insurance--for your risk, or for your risk of liability, whichever.  If you want to avoid clogging up the courts with auto accidents, then sure, limit those cases.

Translation:  Don't blame the person who caused the accident, or expect them to be responsible enough to have liability against their actions.  Blame the victim and force them to bear the financial burden.   :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:



Relative to fuel taxes, it is insignificant.  Remove the cost to administer licence plates and the delta is even tinier.

From the TXDOT FY2007 budget statement:

Revenue source / percent of total (dollar amount)

State Motor Fuel Tax / 21.2 ($1670.33 million)
(adjusted to account for the roughly 25% of total fuel tax revenues that go to public education.  Total before adjustment was $2227.1 million)

Vehicle Registration / 12.6 ($969.8 million)

Registration revenues are less than fuel tax revenues, true, but hardly "insignificant" in relative terms.



Oklahoma started just such a verification database a few years ago. I think our "Tag Agents" (OKs version of DMV) can access it when you renew your registration.

Same for Texas, but they still require you to have your physical proof of insurance.  IIRC the plan is for that to become unnecessary once the system becomes fully integrated.


Yes, but YOU can buy insurance to cover that risk. It is often called uninsured driver insurance.

If I severly damage your house through my negligence (non-automotive), do you expect me to have insurance to cover that?  Would you ask the government to mandate that everyone have personal liability insurance that covers all acts of negligence?



Homeowner's liability and automotive liability are not comparable issues as the kind of accidents, amounts involved, and threat to life and limb differ radically.  Breaking someone's window or knocking down a section of their fence with your lawnmower is a far cry from breaking someone's neck when you knock their car off the road. 

Mandating reasonable coverage for not only known but expected liabilities, liabilities that routinely include significant financial burden and loss of life and limb?  Yes.

Brad
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 11:34:13 PM by Brad Johnson »
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Boomhauer

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2012, 10:01:19 PM »
Quote
If I severly damage your house through my negligence (non-automotive), do you expect me to have insurance to cover that? 

I expect you to pay up one way or another and make good the damage you caused. Whether you cover that out of your bank account or you have your people cover that (insurance, loan shark, whatever), is up to you.




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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2012, 10:05:01 PM »
I'm in strong agreement with Brad on this one.

Well, here is an idea for those that don't think compulsory auto insurance is ethical. How about this for a substitute. Either provide insurance or post a bond in an amount equal to the minimum required liability level or stay the *expletive deleted* off the road.
Or how about if you cause a loss to someone else and can't make them whole you go to jail until you pay it off out of your prison wages.
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grislyatoms

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2012, 11:29:22 PM »
I'm in strong agreement with Brad on this one.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2012, 11:34:16 PM »
Here in Va we have options - buy insurance to cover damages you cause, or pay a $250 fee to drive without insurance.  The fee goes into a pool that is supposed to be used to cover expenses an uninsured driver causes.  If you buy a policy it is mandated to have coverage against uninsured drivers' damages.

IIRC Taxachusetts and some other states that believe in "no-fault" insurance also mandate coverage against uninsured in policies that are sold.

Drive without either and you get caught?  Your license is suspended.  Every year they come closer to taking away the "drive to & from work" exemption for suspended licenses, and a little bit closer to make driving without a license a jailable offense.  The death of a nun last year brought them within 2 or 3 votes this year of getting the bills out of committee and onto the floor for a vote.  It might make it next year.  There is movement to tighten the law and take discretion out of the hands of judges when faced with someone driving without or on a suspended/revoked license.  If another nun or other heartstring-puller gets killed by an illegal driving on a third or more revoked license this year I think the legislature will pass a bill allowing on-the-spot lynching through the 6th generation.

I'd rather put up with mandated coverage against the uninsured (and laws with teeth against those who get caught without coverage) than giving the cops another excuse to go fishing - because if they can stop you to check on your coverage they can go fishing for anything else, and I just do not believe they will pass up the opportunity.  Why do they ask me, after writing a ticket for speeding, if I have atomic bombs or anthrax in the car?  How is that related to speeding?

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2012, 11:52:06 PM »
Hawk the problem is people will go and get insurance for just long enough to register the vehicle and then not make any more payments.  So they will drive 11 out of 12 months without insurance.


Then the system is broken in some states. In my state (which I won't mention so don't ask), the insurance companies are required by law to notify the motor vehicle department if the required insurance lapses or is canceled.
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MechAg94

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2012, 11:52:26 PM »
I'm in strong agreement with Brad on this one.

Well, here is an idea for those that don't think compulsory auto insurance is ethical. How about this for a substitute. Either provide insurance or post a bond in an amount equal to the minimum required liability level or stay the *expletive deleted* off the road.
Or how about if you cause a loss to someone else and can't make them whole you go to jail until you pay it off out of your prison wages.

I was thinking along similar terms.  How about 30 days in jail for every $500 in damage done while uninsured including medical.  Maybe make it $1000 if that gets too high.  Loophole in that if you can actually pay for the damages separate from insurance.  You could also allow courts to severely garnish wages in those cases as well.

If you did that and enforced it, you might not even need a requirement for insurance at all.  You just have stiff penalties and consequences if you get in a wreck without insurance.  
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Pending New Oklahoma Uninsured driver law
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2012, 11:59:10 PM »
I'd rather put up with mandated coverage against the uninsured (and laws with teeth against those who get caught without coverage) than giving the cops another excuse to go fishing - because if they can stop you to check on your coverage they can go fishing for anything else, and I just do not believe they will pass up the opportunity.

Agreed. The problem is that police are like lawyers -- 99 percent give the other 1 percent a bad name. We can't trust them, so we shouldn't give them any additional leverage to violate our rights.
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