Author Topic: A Bona Fide Witch Hunt  (Read 2638 times)

roo_ster

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A Bona Fide Witch Hunt
« on: June 06, 2006, 03:52:07 PM »
Whacking the Wiccans is gov't policy in Saudi.

http://reuters.excite.com//article/20060605/2006-06-05T122913Z_01_L05786395_RTRIDST_0_ODD-SAUDI-WITCHCRAFT-DC.html

Morality police turn witch hunters
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Jun 5, 8:29 AM (ET)

RIYADH (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia's powerful morality police is launching a witch hunt in the birthplace of Islam.

The Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice is setting up special centers in all cities to "register complaints on sorcerers and charlatans, track them and terminate them," the authority's chief Sheikh Ibrahim bin Abdallah al-Ghaith told al-Madinah newspaper.

Islam forbids magic and practicing it is considered blasphemy.

Saudi newspapers often report incidents involving so-called sorcerers, mainly from the Indian subcontinent and Africa.

Some Saudis pay them vast amounts of money, hoping to uncover hidden treasures or get jobs, according to the papers.

The religious police have wide powers in Saudi Arabia, which imposes a strict version of Sunni Islam, to prevent the spread of drugs, alcohol and prostitution as well as stop unrelated men and women mixing in public.
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280plus

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A Bona Fide Witch Hunt
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2006, 08:34:52 PM »
Is there anything Islam DOESN"T forbid?
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Stand_watie

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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2006, 08:56:29 PM »
Quote from: jfruser
Whacking the Wiccans is gov't policy in Saudi.

http://reuters.excite.com//article/20060605/2006-06-05T122913Z_01_L05786395_RTRIDST_0_ODD-SAUDI-WITCHCRAFT-DC.html

Morality police turn witch hunters
Email this Story

Jun 5, 8:29 AM (ET)

RIYADH (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia's powerful morality police is launching a witch hunt in the birthplace of Islam.

The Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice is setting up special centers in all cities to "register complaints on sorcerers and charlatans, track them and terminate them," the authority's chief Sheikh Ibrahim bin Abdallah al-Ghaith told al-Madinah newspaper.

Islam forbids magic and practicing it is considered blasphemy.

Saudi newspapers often report incidents involving so-called sorcerers, mainly from the Indian subcontinent and Africa.

Some Saudis pay them vast amounts of money, hoping to uncover hidden treasures or get jobs, according to the papers.

The religious police have wide powers in Saudi Arabia, which imposes a strict version of Sunni Islam, to prevent the spread of drugs, alcohol and prostitution as well as stop unrelated men and women mixing in public.
I reckon they have a lot more shamanism than wiccan in Saudi.
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A Bona Fide Witch Hunt
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2006, 10:10:31 PM »
Quote from: 280plus
Is there anything Islam DOESN"T forbid?
Stonings? Beheadings?

Werewolf

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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2006, 05:07:47 AM »
Quote from: 280plus
Is there anything Islam DOESN"T forbid?
Islam, Christianity, Shinto, Buddhism, Judaism...
Aren't all religions fundamentally about forbidding things? That's what they do. Religion isn't about GOD it's about control and most control thru fear - God'll zap your ass into hell if you do somthing the shaman (speaking for GOD of course) tells ya not to.

Religion and shamanism in prehistoric times were the only form of law available to the group. AND man's groups needed law to continue to survive. Why invoke GOD - look at this way. Imagine you're a hungry, hell, a starving hunter gatherer and you hunt down a pig. Ummmm Ummmm - roast pig! Tasty and full of nutritious calories. Here's the rub though they also carry quite a few parasites that can kill ya. Now the smarter guys in the tribe have noted this and know that there's a reasonable chance if the group eats that pig that the group's gonna suffer for it. So this smart guy goes to the group preparing to feast on the pig and using logic and explaining his past observations with calm and reason lets the tribe know that eating that pig probably isn't the smartest thing to do. The tribe being hungry and all gives him the proverbial single fingered salute and commences to chow down. Why should they do what the smart guy says (nobody likes smart guys - now or then) and it isn't like he can MAKE them not eat that pig - he's just a geek smart guy - hell he can't even hunt and he sure isn't a warrior.

After a few of his fellow tribesmen succumb to trichinosis, bloat up from tape worm and shrivel up and die from the other things they caught from the pig the smart guy decides that for their own good he's gonna try another tack. So the next time the hunters bring back a pig to feast on the smart guy gathers the tribe, talks in a spooky voice, tosses some stuff in the fire that goes poof and all sparkly and proclaims that Xaoxican the GOD of all tribes everywhere came to him in a dream and declared that the eating of pig was evil and those that so indulge shall be cast into a lake of fire upon their deaths forever to suffer the wrath of Xaoxican for disobeying him.

Now put yourself into the shoes of the primitive tribal dude? Which method do you respond to? The one where you must think or the one where GOD threatens yer ass? History provides the answer to that question.

The only difference between the religions of early man and those of today is one of scale. They control a whole hell of a lot more people and have out lived their usefullness (maybe - there's probably still a lot of folks around who only behave out of fear of GODLY retribution).

So it isn't surprising at all that the ruling factions in Saudi would go after a competing group of shamans - they're the competition. Can't have that - dilutes the power base.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2006, 06:02:05 AM »
Quote from: 280plus
Is there anything Islam DOESN"T forbid?
Yes.
Quote
track them and terminate them

Sindawe

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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2006, 06:13:39 AM »
Quote
Aren't all religions fundamentally about forbidding things? That's what they do.
So it would seam with the mainstream monotheistic and polytheistic religions. A few of the minor ones are not, and so are persecuted by the leaders of the mainstream religions.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2006, 08:38:02 AM »
So if I tell you, "Don't eat that or bad germs will get inside you and kill you," would that also be controlling someone by fear?  What's the difference?
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BrokenPaw

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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2006, 09:01:45 AM »
Quote from: fistful
So if I tell you, "Don't eat that or bad germs will get inside you and kill you," would that also be controlling someone by fear?  What's the difference?
If the thing you were talking about actually had bad germs that could get inside and kill you, then your admonition would be backed by verifiable and demonstrable fact.

Most religions specify a penalty for disobediance that is ultimately a matter of faith.

"Don't eat strychnine because it'll ruin your whole afternoon", versus "Don't eat pork because you'll spend all of eternity in unimaginable torment".

That's the difference.

-BP

Edited because I can't type.  For which I will undoubtedly spend all of eternity in unimaginable torment.
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

280plus

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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2006, 11:47:41 AM »
Very succinctly put Werewolf. I agree 100% on all that. And a nice followup by Broken paw as well. Wink
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2006, 06:28:55 PM »
Yes, BrokenPaw, that is a difference, although I don't think of faith as being the sort of pie-in-the-sky, fuzzy, wishful-thinking that some people think it is.  What I think we can agree on, though, is that telling people about fearful consequences isn't a bad thing, and isn't necessarily controlling people by fear.
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BrokenPaw

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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2006, 05:10:42 AM »
Fistful,

Yes, absolutely, telling people "don't do that because there are known bad consequences associated with doing it" is a good thing.

I think that the point that people were making in this thread is that when the "known bad consequences" are things that we can physically test and prove, it's called "science" or "medicine", but when the "known bad consequences" are a matter of believing what some holy teacher says will happen after we die, then it's religion.

So to those outside the religion, some of the "don'ts" look unjustified and capricious.

Take the pork example:  If (hypothetically -- I'm not trying to attack anyone's faith here) the reason for the Old Testament prohibition on eating pork is purely the descendant of that meat's tendancy to carry disease (as Werewolf described), then there's no intrinsic reason that God might have for banning its consumption now.  It wasn't spiritually unclean; it was physically unclean, and people did not have the means to make it safe, so it became a law, enforced through fear of divine retribution, that pork must not be consumed.

Now that we know the reasons that pork can cause disease, and we know how to ensure that it does not, there's no physical reason not to eat it, and yet the religious prohibition remains.  To those who do not follow Talmudic law, there's no reason, and the idea that "if you eat pork, God's gonna be awful angry" seems, well, not particularly compelling.

Religions attempt to control behavior through divine consequence.  Some of that behavior is intrinsically harmful ("Thou shalt not murder", for instance).  But some of the behavior that religions try to prohibit is the moral equivalent of malum prohibitum:  e.g., eating pork, or doing work on the Sabbath; it's not physically harmful, but according to the belief system, it's spiritually harmful.

I think that's the distinction that some are trying to draw here.

Wow.  Sorry.  That was longer than I meant it to be.
-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.