Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Perd Hapley on April 18, 2023, 03:36:41 PM
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Ammo question: Has anyone seen a study or survey on how many people use premium hollow-point rounds (or any kind of hollow-point) in their defensive pistols?
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Never seen one but would like to. Plenty of studies on effectiveness of xyz
I carry premium HP regardless of cost. I might admit to carrying my 3rd mag loaded with FMJ but gun and 2nd is always HP and if I’m into mag 3 the fecal material has definitely hit the rotating blades.
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I load Winchester white box 230 gr JHP "personal protection" ammo in all my carry 1911s. I feeds reliably in all of them.
I've tried a few different "premium" defensive ammo brands and not all of them will feed reliably for me.
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The kings have spoken.
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A better question would be why someone would use anything except hollow points short of legal restrictions to the contrary?
To your question, no, I haven't seen a study or hear anecdotal evidence one way or the other. Does the FBI publish a list of studies they've done in regard to stuff like this?
Brad
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I might admit to carrying my 3rd mag loaded with FMJ but gun and 2nd is always HP and if I’m into mag 3 the fecal material has definitely hit the rotating blades.
I’m planning to start keeping spare magazines in the cars (2 magazines for each potential carry gun, in each car), and I think I’m just going to use ball ammo for those. That ammo’s going to be subject to weather extremes, so I’ll probably want to switch it out every six months or so. That would get obscenely expensive if I used HST or something.
A better question would be why someone would use anything except hollow points short of legal restrictions to the contrary?
Brad
I'm thinking mostly ignorance, or misinformation.
I should add another reason. Some guns don't feed hollow-points reliably.
And reason # 4: penury.
Reason #5: them new-fangled screw-driver bullets
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You guys are a summing that all handgun owners are selective about ammo choices. Many struggle even to get the correct cartridge for their gun, so the idea of selecting a type beyond that is not on their radar. It's more along the lines of "give me the cheapest bullets that fit this gun" sort of thing.
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You guys are a summing that all handgun owners are selective about ammo choices. Many struggle even to get the correct cartridge for their gun, so the idea of selecting a type beyond that is not on their radar. It's more along the lines of "give me the cheapest bullets that fit this gun" sort of thing.
That's the kind of person I had in mind when I started the thread.
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I carry 9mm JHP rounds but they are NOT a "Premium Brand/Model". I NEED to buy some Gold Dots or whatever is the Good Stuff(tm) these days and test and carry those. I need some .25 ACP ammo now...
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This is the kind of misinformation and/or ignorance I'm talking about.
I have had some friends tell me that you can get sued if you use hollow point or exotic ammo in a defense situation. Does anyone know if that is true? Is there have any info out there about this subject?
https://forums.usacarry.com/threads/able-to-be-sued-for-use-of-hollow-point.16199/
I have always carried mixed hollow points and solid points in my small guns. I like glassers and carry three of those and 3 solid s in my Kel Tec, no, I'm from the old school and do not carry one in the chamber. Right or wrong that is my decision based on my life time of experience. I can not conceive of a situation where I would not have time to chamber a round and where I would need more than 6 rounds
https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/ruger-lcp-and-hollow-points.138455/
Plus this:
https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/ruger-lcp-and-hollow-points.138455/
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I carry 9mm JHP rounds but they are NOT a "Premium Brand/Model". I NEED to buy some Gold Dots or whatever is the Good Stuff(tm) these days and test and carry those. I need some .25 ACP ammo now...
SGAmmo had JHP stuff on pretty decent a month or so back. Might give them a look.
Brad
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Hollow points do more damage to tissue, etc,. and generally stay inside the body, whereas ball doesn't create anywhere near as much internal damage in the wound channel and has a greater propensity to go through-and-through and can cause collateral damage.
I carry hollow point ammo in all my EDC's.
Woody
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The correct answer is that it depends on your perceived or likely threat.
If you are carrying 9mm for an expected use against unarmored humans, a "Self Defense" hollow point is a good idea. Lots of the folks I know up in AK, and me when I lived there would carry heavily for caliber ball or solid ammo in the woods becasue we were looking for penetration in moose or bear, but not stepping up to a rifle. My dad carried a .45 w/ JHP for years in anchorage, but kept a magazine with ball in his truck in case he came across (or was in) a traffic accident that injured a moose and he had to put it down. (talk about a low probability event to plan for)
The old saying that "mission drives gear" applies to a self defense handgun in spades.
To Perd's actual question I don't think much good data exists. For every one of us that thinks about the proper cartridge for the threat and use, there's someone as was mentioned that just wanted the cheapest ammo for the gun. There's probably (literally) millions of handguns in peoples closets and nightstands that are loaded with whatever the gun store sold the person when they bought the gun, because they are on the first box of ammo. Those are a mixed bag of what the gun store flunkie thought was good, what was in vogue at the time (.38 spl wadcutter!!), or what was in stock at the time.
for myself, I carry whatever brand name JHP had the best price the last time I bought 500 of them. Right now, that's a mix of 124 gr Federal Hydrashock and 124gr Speer Gold Dot in 9mm or 230gr Speer Gold Dot +P in 45. At any given time there's probably a couple mags of range ammo in the truck too.
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With the "I'm no expert" caveat, I don't want to be shot with platinum unobtanium talinator disintegrator ammo. I also don't want to be shot with Winchester White Box ball ammo.
I generally carry, like Dogmush, whatever "on sale" HP stuff from one of the name brands, after having shot enough of it in a particular gun to ensure function.
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The Glock 43 has the Premium Defense rounds.
The J-Frame has some flat-points - I think they were around 150 grainers. They'll likely be going through a pocket first...
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https://www.bereli.com/shooting/winchester-ammo-super-x-9mm-luger-147-gr-silvertip-hollow-point-w9mmst2/
If you keep up with deals, you can often find stuff like this where 100 or 200 rounds of decent HP ammo is ~50cents per round. PSA had some similar deals in recent months. Usually cheaper than the big box stores and the premium HP ammo. Depends on how much you can afford to spend on it. I rarely see Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST on sale like this.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/sierra-outdoor-master-9mm-ammo-115-grain-jhp-20rds-a81100120.html
https://palmettostatearmory.com/sierra-sports-master-9mm-ammo-124-grain-jhp-20rds-a8124-19.html
I don't see 45 ACP HP ammo on sale all that often.
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If you want to alternate FMJ into your carry ammo to get more penetration, you might want to look at the HP alternatives like the Lehigh Defense "screw driver" ammo or Fort Scott's TUI bullets. The testing I have seen seems to show they make a better wound cavity than FMJ, but usually not as good as premium HP bullets. I think it depends on how much you value penetration versus wound cavity and how much you are concerned about clothing interfering with the HP bullet. I have toyed with them and they seem to function in my pistols, but the only time I carry the alternatives is with 380 or 32 acp. That is where I really worry about sufficient penetration with HP ammo.
Fort Scott Tumble Upon Impact - My New EDC Ammo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps-o0m3Ds_M&t=11s
Paul Harrel has tested this and Lehigh bullets with his meat targets also.
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On the question in the OP, I imagine bullets used varies a lot. I figure a lot of gun owners still have the same box or two of ammo they bought with the gun at the store, or the "gun guy" they know told them to buy.
Cops mostly carry HP ammo and judging by the videos we see from time to time, they work. If you are down to your 2nd or 3rd magazine, I imagine any ammo is better than no ammo as you are in a bad spot.
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To give you an idea of the level of training and knowledge some less than responsible gun owners, here's a screen capture from a video by Donut Operator. The woman with this gun has the bullets in backwards and had different brands of FMJ in the mag. The one round with the bullet seated deeply was probably the one she tried to chamber and the slide drove it in that far. She Brought the gun up to fire at the cops who returned fire with bullets loaded the right way, and better ammo too. So you can see the idea of selecting the best ammo isn't going to occur to folks like that.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-geo-images/9e30a8c4-0b1a-4bfc-ba45-edcc75d8411c_l.jpg)
Here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8muhpuXN7E&t=84s
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I roll my own, piss on the naysayers having a case of the vapors now because it is bad to carry reloads. For my .45, 10mm, and 50AE I use XTP's. For 10mm practice rounds I use HAP, Hornady Action Pistol. (truncated unhollow tip XTP). There is a good possibility they are loaded to true 10mm speeds. ;)
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Despite the expense, I load premium JHPs from one of the major manufacturers in my defensive pistols and revolvers. For example, I just bought a couple of boxes of 9mm Speer 124 +P Gold Dot law enforcement ammo, and then I read that NYPD just signed a contract for millions of this round. (Bet they'll pay less per round than I did.)
I don't know any forensic pathologists, but I really doubt that they could tell which brand of premium JHP ammo was used in any particular shooting just by examining the wound channel without a recovered bullet or bullet fragments. (If anyone has reliable information to the contrary, please educate me. ;) )
I recently read an article where an "expert" opined that FMJ was best. I strongly disagreed with him.
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To give you an idea of the level of training and knowledge some less than responsible gun owners, here's a screen capture from a video by Donut Operator. The woman with this gun has the bullets in backwards and had different brands of FMJ in the mag. The one round with the bullet seated deeply was probably the one she tried to chamber and the slide drove it in that far. She Brought the gun up to fire at the cops who returned fire with bullets loaded the right way, and better ammo too. So you can see the idea of selecting the best ammo isn't going to occur to folks like that.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-geo-images/9e30a8c4-0b1a-4bfc-ba45-edcc75d8411c_l.jpg)
Here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8muhpuXN7E&t=84s
That's nice and all, but I prefer the story about the creep that wrapped his cartridges with electrical tape, so they would fit gooder. :laugh:
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To give you an idea of the level of training and knowledge some less than responsible gun owners, here's a screen capture from a video by Donut Operator. The woman with this gun has the bullets in backwards and had different brands of FMJ in the mag. The one round with the bullet seated deeply was probably the one she tried to chamber and the slide drove it in that far. She Brought the gun up to fire at the cops who returned fire with bullets loaded the right way, and better ammo too. So you can see the idea of selecting the best ammo isn't going to occur to folks like that.
Was at Knob Creek a number of years ago and the guy at the table next to me was having issues with his AR. I take a look and he's loading the rounds into the mag backwards.
Can't remember if that was the same day another guy walks out of the shop with an AR he just bought in there, sets up at a table, starts loading mags, takes the AR out of the box, and then starts doing mag dumps out of it. Since the AR was a flat top with no sights front and back he was basically just spraying the area.
We laugh at those This Rolled In car videos but you got to remember many of those same people also buy guns.
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Was at Knob Creek a number of years ago and the guy at the table next to me was having issues with his AR. I take a look and he's loading the rounds into the mag backwards.
Can't remember if that was the same day another guy walks out of the shop with an AR he just bought in there, sets up at a table, starts loading mags, takes the AR out of the box, and then starts doing mag dumps out of it. Since the AR was a flat top with no sights front and back he was basically just spraying the area.
We laugh at those This Rolled In car videos but you got to remember many of those same people also buy guns.
I was managing our club's 50 yard range during public sight-in days, and a couple of guys came in with a brand-new Browning lever action rifle. They weren't shooting very well - rounds that hit the target were scattered all across the paper. They were nice guys - no buffoonery or safety violations - but their gun just wasn't shooting well even off a rest, so they asked me to shoot a group. I fired three rounds off the sandbags that went into an inch. (Only 50 yards, remember.) It wasn't dead center, but it was good enough to provide sight adjustment info.
So . . .it wasn't the gun. I coached them a little, and by the end of their ammo they were keeping all their rounds on the paper, and almost getting an actual group.
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I load Winchester white box 230 gr JHP "personal protection" ammo in all my carry 1911s. I feeds reliably in all of them.
I've tried a few different "premium" defensive ammo brands and not all of them will feed reliably for me.
I too do not trust "mis-shaped" ammo without rxtensive testing.
However, with my little Kahr CW9 i did not want to spend range time and money on running the recommended 200 test rounds through it.
So I keep the chamber loaded with a hot shot hollowpoint galaxy-busting 9mm round and the magazine loaded with FMJs. So my first shot is a galaxy-buster which didn't need to be fed. My second mag is filled with the galaxy busters.
I would be interested in such a survey, but I'm not sure it would matter to my guns. They only speak banguage anyway.
Terry, 230RN
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I too do not trust "mis-shaped" ammo without rxtensive testing.
However, with my little Kahr CW9 i did not want to spend range time and money on running the recommended 200 test rounds through it.
So I keep the chamber loaded with a hot shot hollowpoint galaxy-busting 9mm round and the magazine loaded with FMJs. So my first shot is a galaxy-buster which didn't need to be fed. My second mag is filled with the galaxy busters.
I would be interested in such a survey, but I'm not sure it would matter to my guns. They only speak banguage anyway.
Terry, 230RN
A former next door neighbor was a plainclothes cop. Regulations at the time required him to carry a .38, but he could carry any backup he wanted. He kept the .38 somewhere out of the way and kept his "backup" - a 1911 in .45 - handy. He loaded a 230 JHP in the chamber (Norma brand, the only JHP available at the time) and hardball in the magazine for reliability.
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As a 1911 aficionado, that's what I carry. Most of my 1911s will feed pretty much any JHP round, but for consistent reliability I prefer those with a rounded ogive that's close to the ogive profile of FMJ bullets. In premium ammunition, that basically means Remington Golden Saber -- except that Remington has now renamed it "Personal Defense" (or something like that) and raised the price in a shadow increase by keeping the price per box the same, but now packaging 20 rounds per box instead of 25.
Some while back I did a fair amount of research into self-defense loads in .45 ACP. Both Winchester and Remington offer (or did at that time) a JHP load in their budget ammo lines (Winchester "white box" and Remington 'green box"). The bullets in those rounds look virtually identical, and they also appear to be the same bullets you get if you buy 230-grain JHP projectiles from either Winchester or Remington. What I found strongly suggested that these bullets were originally the premium JHP from the respective companies, and they relegated them to the bulk pack lines when they introduced newer, higher-priced self-defense loads with fancy names (like "Black Talon") and commensurately higher prices.
I found some tests that indicated that under most conditions the budget JHPs expand almost as well as the newer, higher-priced ammo. I still have a few boxes of Remington Golden Saber, so that's what I carry in my EDC pistol but I would not feel under-armed if I were to load up with Winchester white box or Remington green box JHP. A gunsmith friend of mine takes the attitude that if it doesn't expand at all, it still makes a .45" hole, so it's no worse than ball ammo, and probably significantly better.
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I always carry JHP from some reputable brand like hornaday/federal/gold dot.
I wish there was a study.
I hope to get a glock 10mm this fall or winter - there are a few black bears in my neck of the woods - but I am more worried about pitbuls .
I carry .40 S&W most days but will carry a sw 642 as well.
later this summer I plan on buying a suit and plan on carrying the .25 , a tiny 950 I think it is beretta - I need extra mags tho.
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I do not need a suit, I will probably stay welding until i retire in a couple of yrs and then still work - just get the one grand extra per month from social security - however- I want a nice suit to be John Wick for halloween this yr - and actually carry to round out the look -
most times i would only carry the little 25 pocket rocket for formal wear - I have not even seen jhp available for it but I doubt it makes a huge difference with the dimunitive 25 acp if I ever have to use it it would be in a close fight and I plan on pointing at the belly/groin area and running away hoping that works enough to make following me un appealing
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I do not need a suit, I will probably stay welding until i retire in a couple of yrs and then still work - just get the one grand extra per month from social security - however- I want a nice suit to be John Wick for halloween this yr - and actually carry to round out the look -
most times i would only carry the little 25 pocket rocket for formal wear - I have not even seen jhp available for it but I doubt it makes a huge difference with the dimunitive 25 acp if I ever have to use it it would be in a close fight and I plan on pointing at the belly/groin area and running away hoping that works enough to make following me un appealing
Luckygunner.com lists .25 JHP - $35 for 20. :O
Looking at their gel tests (no expansion) I'd just stick with FMJ, since penetration isn't great with this round in the first place. The only real reason for a .25 is that - in principle - the ammo ought to be more reliable than .22 rimfire.
https://www.luckygunner.com/bulk-25-acp-ammo-25acp35jhpspeergd-20#geltest
If you want a tiny gun, consider the KelTec P32. I fired a friend's and it was reliable - can't speak much for the accuracy other than within 7 yards it was OK, at 25 yards keeping my rounds on a full size silhouette was difficult with the "sights" (and I use the term loosely) it had. It's still a step up from the .25 in power. (The Gold Dot .32s didn't expand in their gel tests either.)
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Lucky gunner is a good site to look at gel test results. I use them when researching ammo performance when selecting self defense ammo and reload development for short barreled .357 mag loads, but just as a reference point.
For me, HST’s in my 9MM’s (124 for short barreled and 147’s for 4”), Gold Dots for my .40 and 45’s and 180 XTP’s and 200 Gr Nosler for 10MM’s. All functional tested prior to carry.
Not sure if I’ve ever seen a study that Perd is looking for to be honest.
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In 9mm I generally carry Winchester Rangers.
In my .38s I carry Speer 135-gr. JHP Gold Dots.
In .40 and .45 I am also using Gold Dots.
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+1 for the Keltec P32. It is a pocket gun size, but 32 acp is light enough the gun it easy to shoot. I want to get another one, but they aren't easy to find. Everyone has the 380, not the 32.
I have generally been leaning toward the solid copper bullets for 32 such as the Lehigh Defense screwdriver ammo or the Fort Scott Munitions stuff. Just figure I should err on the side of penetration over expansion for small calibers like that.
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I've not carried my Beretta in .32, but were I to, I'd probably just go with hard ball. Flat nose hard ball if I could find it, but whatever.
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How often do you carry a pocket gun? For me it is just once in a blue moon when my clothes (usually a suit) don't allow my P365 or something larger.
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How often do you carry a pocket gun? For me it is just once in a blue moon when my clothes (usually a suit) don't allow my P365 or something larger.
Virtually every day...
My preferred method of carry is in a pocket holster.
My two primary CCW guns are either a Smith & Wesson 042 .38, or a Taurus PT-22.
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Pocket carry a Rohrbaugh R9.
Barely bigger than a Kel-tec 380 but in 9mm.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/IMGP6893-e.jpg)
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LCP in a DeSantis Nemesis. It's my American Express Card - I don't leave home without it.
Brad
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Depending on the pocket I will carry either a Sig 938 or S&W M&P 2.0 (single stack) both in 9mm. When a lot of civil unrest started happening I gave up the S&W Bodyguard (380) for them because, well 9mm. I have always wanted a AMT backup in 40 S&W so I could ream the chamber and make a 10mm pocket rocket out of it. I can find nearly every AMT except the 40.
As far as ammo, all of my reloads are Hornady XTP (HAP for practice in 10mm). Any 9mm is a quality store bought.
bob
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"I have always wanted a AMT backup in 40 S&W so I could ream the chamber and make a 10mm pocket rocket out of it."
Are you sure that a 10mm could even fit in the Backup's footprint?
I don't have a dimensional drawing on the .40 version, but I've really got to question whether that could be done.
One thing that always struck me about the AMTs (other than them being very expensive pieces of absolute *expletive deleted*it) is how tight the dimensions were in the frames. They all seemed to be very much tailored for a minimal amount of extra space in either the grip or in slide clearance (and that caused no end of feed problems with my Mom's AMT in .380).
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"I have always wanted a AMT backup in 40 S&W so I could ream the chamber and make a 10mm pocket rocket out of it."
Are you sure that a 10mm could even fit in the Backup's footprint?
Yes, surprisingly I am not the first (or original) thinker of this conversion. I saw one many years ago and said "That's what I need!" ;)
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Pocket-pistol-40--andgt-10mm-Conversion--RANGE-REPORT-and-Video/5-1954300/
bob
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Ah.... they built the .40 on the .45 ACP backup frame.
I was under the impression that they were built on the 9mm backup frame.
Interesting.
But, you couldn't convince me to buy an AMT product even if you chambered it for .38 Super... or .32 ACP.
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Ammo question: Has anyone seen a study or survey on how many people use premium hollow-point rounds (or any kind of hollow-point) in their defensive pistols?
nothing comprehensive.
And, Internet social media == Dunning-Krueger National Park, I don't think I'd necessarily follow the herd on this or anything.
(I carry factory rounds, they tend to be social purposes hollow points. Being usually .38, I take what I can find around here. I've got a small pile of .38 Federal Punch, a smaller pile of 110 grain Silvertip. Dribs and drabs of other stuff.
What shoots reliably to point of aim for me, is my own handloads, 158 grain LSWC, 3.8 grains Bullseye.)
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Pocket carry a Rohrbaugh R9.
Barely bigger than a Kel-tec 380 but in 9mm.
But a Kel-Tec 380 is also 9mm >:D
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But a Kel-Tec 380 is also 9mm >:D
I predicted someone would bring that up :P
And so is 38S and 357 :P