What the heck? The gov is taking land from the owners for 9/11 memorial?

[Ryan in Maine]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090507/ap_on_re_us/us_flight93_memorial

PITTSBURGH – The government will begin taking land from seven property owners so that the Flight 93 memorial can be built in time for the 10th anniversary of the 2001 terrorist attacks, the National Park Service said.

In a statement obtained by The Associated Press, the park service said it had teamed up with a group representing the victims' families to work with landowners since before 2005 to acquire the land.

"But with few exceptions, these negotiations have been unsuccessful," said the statement.

Landowners dispute that negotiations have taken place and say they are disappointed at the turn of events.

The seven property owners own about 500 acres still needed for what will ultimately be a $58 million, 2,200-acre permanent memorial and national park at the crash site near Shanksville, about 60 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.

"We always prefer to get that land from a willing seller. And sometimes you can just not come to an agreement on certain things," park service spokesman Phil Sheridan said.

Two owners account for about 420 acres the park service plans to condemn, including Svonavec Inc. — which owns 275 acres, including the impact site where 40 passengers and crew died. About 150 acres are owned by a family that operates a scrap yard.

Most of rest of the land to be condemned are small parcels, two of which include cabins.

Tony Kordell said the park service visited him late Friday afternoon and made him an offer for his 150 acres. He declined to give the price, but said his attorney requested the appraisal used to determine the value on Monday.

He's not gotten that appraisal, he said Thursday. On Wednesday, he was told the park service would condemn the land.

The property Kordell owns includes the scrap yard, which must be relocated and he said cost to move the business also hasn't been determined. The property includes where the visitor center, parking lot and park walkways will be placed, he said.

"We've been working with (the park service) all along. We've given them rights to come on the property" to do planning, he said.

"All it's going to do is cost a huge amount of money for attorneys," he said.

Randall Musser owns about 62 acres that the park service wants to acquire.

"They apologized about the way it's come together, but what's sad is they had all these years to put this together and they haven't," he said.

Musser served on the committee that helped establish the park's boundaries and said landowners were promised in 2002 that eminent domain would not be used.

"It's absolutely a surprise. I'm shocked by it. I'm disappointed by it," said Tim Lambert, who owns nearly 164 acres that his grandfather bought in the 1930s. The park service plans to condemn two parcels totaling about five acres — land, he said, he had always intended to donate for the memorial.

"To the best of my knowledge and my lawyer, absolutely no negotiations have taken place with the park service where we've sat down and discussed this," Lambert said.

This isn't exactly breaking news, but this is going a lot differently than it was made to sound back when this idea started floating around.  :|

[makattak]

Here's a question. Why do they need 2200 ACRES for a memorial?

There's only 500 left to go (apparently) can't they just settle on a 1700 ACRE memorial?

Oh that right, so long as they CAN do it, they will. Property rights be damned.

[dogmush]

I confess, if I got notice the Park Service was doing this to my land, especially if, as the owners say, there was no attempt to just buy it, I would start very quietly researching what could be done to ensure NOTHING ever grew there again.  Salt the earth and all that.  Just out of sheer contrayness.

I also can't help but think that getting the land this way will leave a kind of perminant pall over the completed memorial.  I know if I were to visit it, I would be distracted from the memorial by wondering which parts were taken at gunpoint.

[Rudy Kohn]

My first reaction was, "I didn't know you could condemn land.  That seems like a novel way to exercise eminent domain."

Next:

"We always prefer to get that land from a willing seller. And sometimes you can just not come to an agreement on certain things," park service spokesman Phil Sheridan said.

"...so then we just force them to agree."

I dunno, is it too obvious at this point to make an Atlas Shrugged reference?  I feel like they've become cliché by this point.

[AJ Dual]

I confess, if I got notice the Park Service was doing this to my land, especially if, as the owners say, there was no attempt to just buy it, I would start very quietly researching what could be done to ensure NOTHING ever grew there again.  Salt the earth and all that.  Just out of sheer contrayness.

I also can't help but think that getting the land this way will leave a kind of perminant pall over the completed memorial.  I know if I were to visit it, I would be distracted from the memorial by wondering which parts were taken at gunpoint.

A mix of dioxin, mercury, and desiel is a good start. Maybe arrange for a couple tons of used car tires to be dumped in the dark of night too.

Anyone tried to do that to me, especially like the guy in the recent scotus case, for another commercial private concern with deeper pockets, they'd wind up with the newest Superfund site for their trouble.

[Seenterman]

Great! Rob peoples land to build a ridiculously over sized memorial in PA, while in New York we still have a giant gaping hole in the ground. Glad to see their priorities are strait. Seriously WTF do you need a 2200 acre memorial for? I know it was tragic, but wouldn't a 500 acre memorial be appropriate too? Hell a 100 acre memorial would be fine! Funny thing to note is that the posters over at the DU have pretty much the same attitudes as we do here. Maybe we aren't all that different after all!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3865787&mesg_id=3865787

[Harold Tuttle]

the jet augured in not far from my wife's home town in B-F-egypt PA
There is nothing there and really no simple way to get there from an interstate/turnpike

They prolly need to buy the acreage to own the roadway out to Route 30

http://www.nps.gov/flni

map:
http://tinyurl.com/dy52uc

enjoy the scenic fuel tank welding factory and be sure to visit the beautiful Stoystown Auto wrecking yard
Thank you for visiting Murtha country (we like your tax dollars)

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

A mix of dioxin, mercury, and desiel is a good start. Maybe arrange for a couple tons of used car tires to be dumped in the dark of night too.

Anyone tried to do that to me, especially like the guy in the recent scotus case, for another commercial private concern with deeper pockets, they'd wind up with the newest Superfund site for their trouble.

its better to just hire a good lawyer  like the guy who owns parsons farms on rt 234 in pw va did.  the gov ended up paying something like 3 mill plus legal fees for land they took and gave him 250 k for

[AJ Dual]

its better to just hire a good lawyer  like the guy who owns parsons farms on rt 234 in pw va did.  the gov ended up paying something like 3 mill plus legal fees for land they took and gave him 250 k for

Not quite, the government prints the money, and/or just collects it from the tax payer. fed.gov does not feel the "pain" if they are forced into excessive litigation, IMO. Also, a litigation strategy assumes I can locate pro-bono legal expertise from someone sympathetic.

So "scorched earth" with a financial component is best if you want to stick it to them.

[drewtam]

Have you guys seen the pictures for the monument they want to build?

http://pittsburgh.about.com/od/flight_93/ss/memorial_photos.htm

Its an awful modern design more ugly than you can imagine. Not only is it plain ugly, its so abstract it has no meaning, no reminder of Flight 93 and their fight for survival.

[Brad Johnson]

Just FYI - 1700 acres is 2.66 square miles.

Also, that's farming country.  Depending on the crop, farm land can generate anywhere from several hundred to several thousand dollars per acre per year.  As part of the condemnation the gov will reimburse the owner for the currant land value, but they won't pay diddly for the lost production over what would have been the remaining life of the land.  That could easliy run into the tens of millions.

Brad

[roo_ster]

Personally, I want no more monuments to atrocities, like the Twin Towers Gaping Hole.

I want monuments to victories.  

Flight 93 qualifies as a draw, at best.  

But, if they want to get the spirit of the deal, maybe have a 50' tall drink cart being pushed by a 100' tall Todd Beamer crushing a Saudi up into the stewardess'  alcove while another 100' passenger grapples the 100' Saudi piloting the airliner, gouging his eyes out in preparation to skull-**** the evil scumbag to death.

Enough of the abstract "Oh, what a tragedy" memorials to atrocity.

Especialy of the kind that are crypto-islamic symbols:

Muslim crescent moon:


Aerial view of future memorial:

(This is toned down from the original design which was even more flagrant.

[roo_ster]

The previous design:

[Iain]

You can draw a line between any two points on the globe. Must need a new prescription anyway. Or more tinfoil.

[Harold Tuttle]

the only farming the do out there is scrape the top and harvest the coal

[Brad Johnson]

the only farming the do out there is scrape the top and harvest the coal

Okay, the value of the coal, then.  Five bucks says that the owners will not be able to claim it because it's not "currently in production", nor will they be allowed to survey the property for any mineral value.

Brad

[Hawkmoon]

2200 acres goes so far beyond bizarre that "obscene" probably doesn't begin to cover it.

A number of years ago I was involved in helping a friend plan the subdivision of her family's small farm. It was only 72 acres. It's pretty amazing just how large 72 acres is. 500 acres would be
PLENTY of land on which to build a memorial and info center to commemorate what is, basically, a hole in the ground where an aircraft augered in.

An acre is 43,560 square feet. If it's perfectly square, it's approximately 208 feet on each side.

2200 acres 95,832,000 square feet, which if perfectly square comes out to 9,789 feet per side. That's almost 2 MILES square.

Ridiculous. Insulting. Obscene.

[Tuco]

640 acres per square mile.
2200/640=3.4375 square miles.

I've rescued this thread from hijack.
It's been my pleasure.
Build me no memorials.

[Boomhauer]

2200 acres is a huge area. I work on for the NPS on a site that encompasses about a thousand acres. And that's huge...the historically significant area only occupies about a third of that land. The rest is woodland and such.

This needs to be no more than a memorial on a 5 acre site (if that large), probably not even need for a staff on site to maintain it. A parking lot and a memorial with some interpretive signs, and a list of the passengers on the flight.

[Harold Tuttle]

watch the video
http://www.nps.gov/flni/photosmultimedia/upload/flight_93_mac.mov
there are coal scrapers on the horizons
they are grabbing a large area so the view is pristine

[makattak]

watch the video
http://www.nps.gov/flni/photosmultimedia/upload/flight_93_mac.mov
there are coal scrapers on the horizons
they are grabbing a large area so the view is pristine

I got another idea.

Plant some trees.

[lupinus]

or just leave it the hell alone and let property owners alone

[MicroBalrog]

watch the video
http://www.nps.gov/flni/photosmultimedia/upload/flight_93_mac.mov
there are coal scrapers on the horizons
fhey are grabbing a large area so the view is pristine

That makes it okay, then.

[Harold Tuttle]

How do expect John Murtha to get re-elected if he can't bring a multimillion dollar boondoggle into this blighted corner of PA?

[tokugawa]

Funny how  heroic individual action is to commemorated by trampling on individual rights.