Vegas strip mass shooting!

[freakazoid]

Too much doesn't add up.

If you look at the floor plan of his Vista suite and the exterior view, it looks like he went into the next room to break out another window. Why leave the suite when there are 3 windows in the suite he could have broken?

Looking for a different view more than likely.

Multiple witnesses said there were multiple shooters, and there were several videos of what looks like muzzle flash on about floor 7-10? Some have been removed by youtube already. Officer says it was probably someone playing with a strobe light. riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Multiple extremely unreliable witnesses.
Several videos are showing light reflections, this is Vegas. Also, the lights keep going even after the shooting has stopped.

Some of the gunfire in the videos sounded like it could be a bumpfire, but some of it was also too consistent to be bumpfire. Nobody can keep it going that steady for that long. Especially an older guy that his family says 'didn't like guns'

I put zero stock in what his brother has said, either he's lying or simply doesn't know.

I see neat stacks of loaded Surefire magazines in the pics, and lots of guns haphazard around the suite. Where is the spent brass and empty mags? 10 minutes at that rate of fire in the same general direction would produce a mountain of it.

We only see a small portion of the hotel room in the leaked pictures. You see some brass. Most is probably either ejected out the window, behind the couch, near the curtain, or on the other side of the room that there have been no leaked pictures of. If he was simply dropping an empty gun and picking up a new one, the empty mags would be in the gun.

Room service receipt looked like an order for two people. Maybe the other person was the woman ejected from the concert earlier for screaming 'you're all going to die'?

Room service receipt has a date that ends in a 7, he didn't check in until the 28th. It's fake. Not discounting the idea that there was another person in the room with him though, there was no other floor shooter though.

Who went in and out of that room? Where is the hall footage from the hotel security cams? You know it exists.

All the pictures we have are what was leaked. No official footage has been released. If they haven't released official pictures, why would they release the security camera footage?

Like it or not, ISIS has been reliable when they claimed they were involved.

ISIS has claimed responsibility for everything. I would hardly call them reliable.

[RoadKingLarry]

For.the most part I agree with freakazoid.
However, I have absolutely no faith in the FBI as to their ability to tell the truth, about anything.

[230RN]

...

I put zero stock in what his brother has said, either he's lying or simply doesn't know.

....

Yes. From yesterday:

If I were the principal investigator, I'd be moving heaven and earth to get an immediate search warrant for his brother's e-mail and other correspondence toot sweet.

Terry

And I agree with RKL on the FBI telling the truth on anything.

"    "

Terry, 230RN

[Hawkmoon]

Those numbers are made up. And you don't have to hit the shooter. The risk of hitting an innocent person, while innocent people are at that very moment actually being hit and killed around you, outweighs the potential benefit of stopping that? I don't think so.

The difference is that the innocent people around you are being hit by the bad guy. If you start shooting hotel guests with counter fire, then you have innocents being shot by the police. That's just NOT good policy. That's like the Spanish Inquisition policy of "In order to save your soul we have to kill you."

As for expecting street cops to be trained to use their patrol rifles at 500+ yards? That's not realistic. For distances like that I suspect that every department in the country relies on the SWAT team's sniper. A couple or three years ago I took a citizen's police academy course with the PD in the neighboring town. Population just over 16,000 people, police force has 43 sworn officers. They have a SWAT team, and they have two designated snipers. The sniper rifles are on a par with the best our U.S. military snipers use. They are NOT patrol carbines.

[Hawkmoon]

Some of the gunfire in the videos sounded like it could be a bumpfire, but some of it was also too consistent to be bumpfire. Nobody can keep it going that steady for that long. Especially an older guy that his family says 'didn't like guns'

His family obviously didn't know anything about him. He had been buying guns for 35 years, and had an "arsenal" of 43 firearms at the time of the incident. He also had either a hunting or a fishing license from Alaska. Ignore the family. They don't know any more than we do.

[Jamisjockey]

The difference is that the innocent people around you are being hit by the bad guy. If you start shooting hotel guests with counter fire, then you have innocents being shot by the police. That's just NOT good policy. That's like the Spanish Inquisition policy of "In order to save your soul we have to kill you."

As for expecting street cops to be trained to use their patrol rifles at 500+ yards? That's not realistic. For distances like that I suspect that every department in the country relies on the SWAT team's sniper. A couple or three years ago I took a citizen's police academy course with the PD in the neighboring town. Population just over 16,000 people, police force has 43 sworn officers. They have a SWAT team, and they have two designated snipers. The sniper rifles are on a par with the best our U.S. military snipers use. They are NOT patrol carbines.

Take it with a grain of salt, but I was watching some TV show about swat/police snipers.  A stupid majority of the shots they take are within the 100 yard range.  Urban swat teams generally just need the precision shot of the sniper, not the long range shoot and scoot like a military sniper would do.
Anyone remember the sniper shooting the pistol out of the suicidal guys hand?
https://youtu.be/AHvWaviIXsk

[freakazoid]

The difference is that the innocent people around you are being hit by the bad guy. If you start shooting hotel guests with counter fire, then you have innocents being shot by the police. That's just NOT good policy. That's like the Spanish Inquisition policy of "In order to save your soul we have to kill you."

As for expecting street cops to be trained to use their patrol rifles at 500+ yards? That's not realistic. For distances like that I suspect that every department in the country relies on the SWAT team's sniper. A couple or three years ago I took a citizen's police academy course with the PD in the neighboring town. Population just over 16,000 people, police force has 43 sworn officers. They have a SWAT team, and they have two designated snipers. The sniper rifles are on a par with the best our U.S. military snipers use. They are NOT patrol carbines.

Collateral damage. *expletive deleted*it happens. If I had been one of the guests in the hotel and they did that and I got hit, but it stopped him from shooting; sucks to be me but worth it. Hitting hotel guests isn't a guarantee. Not doing anything guarantees that more people will be shot and killed though. You can make the choice to maybe hit someone in the hotel, or make the choice to allow others to get hit below by him.

[dogmush]

The dude was shooting for 9 min.  The hypothetical cop would have been better off taking the 2.5 min to jog 1/4 mile to the hotel, and then the 1 min to ride the elevator up, and then shooting him from inside the room, rather than take long shots.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a vast majority of LEO's with AR's in their trunks don't know a .223's 500m ballistics, don't have BDC optics, and if they have A2 iron sights, don't know what that little wheel in the carrying handle is for.

Not to mention the difference between qualifying at 100m and in on a carbine, and going for a semi precision shot.  Not exactly the same trigger/breath control there.  That's the amateur hour analysis.

Assuming you got the 1 of the handful of cops in Vegas they knew all that, they'd know they didn't have the dope handy for the extra elevation holdover, they had no way of estimating the winds at 32 floors up and between skyscrapers, at night and they would be better off counting floors up and windows in and radioing the guys position to the folks that were closing in.

Returning fire from street level is a fools game unless we got lucky and one of the precision marksman, AND his rifle were at the concert.

Freak, I don't know if you are being internet hard, or really think that, but no LEO agency, and hopefully no individual cops are going to actually say "*expletive deleted*ck those innocents, I guess it's collateral damage."  before they start shooting.

[TechMan]

Collateral damage. *expletive deleted*it happens. If I had been one of the guests in the hotel and they did that and I got hit, but it stopped him from shooting; sucks to be me but worth it. Hitting hotel guests isn't a guarantee. Not doing anything guarantees that more people will be shot and killed though. You can make the choice to maybe hit someone in the hotel, or make the choice to allow others to get hit below by him.

If I was in a hotel room that night and anybody in my family was "collateral damage", you can bet I will be suing the *expletive deleted*it out of anybody and everybody because that is a bad decision.  I would also bet that any jury would rule in my favor.

[mtnbkr]

Take it with a grain of salt, but I was watching some TV show about swat/police snipers.  A stupid majority of the shots they take are within the 100 yard range.  Urban swat teams generally just need the precision shot of the sniper, not the long range shoot and scoot like a military sniper would do.

This Summer, I was at the range with a friend and his BIL.  BIL was a LEO firearms trainer in Canada (don't recall which province) and he confirmed what JJ said above.  They train for extreme precision over short distances.  Handgun was only out to 15yds or so and rifle was within 100yds, with most engagements being closer to 50 IIRC.  The goal was precision and keeping the bullets out of innocent bystanders and property.  The BIL was a trainer before the new standards and said the shift in training took place over time as they evaluated how firearms were used and under what circumstances.

Chris

[Ben]

Just listening to the news this morning, what was originally tinfoil for me is now an official statement by the LV Sheriff -- that there was more than one person involved. He didn't mention shooting, but he said multiple people were involved with planning. I don't know if he went off the reservation regarding anything the FBI is doing. Also mentioned was that he "planned for his escape". The fuel tanks were mentioned as a potential diversion.

Also it was reported that none of the cameras he had setup were recording. I try to keep the tinfoil hat off, but some of the stuff that officials are throwing out this morning has me wondering.

[wmenorr67]

Just listening to the news this morning, what was originally tinfoil for me is now an official statement by the LV Sheriff -- that there was more than one person involved. He didn't mention shooting, but he said multiple people were involved with planning. I don't know if he went off the reservation regarding anything the FBI is doing. Also mentioned was that he "planned for his escape". The fuel tanks were mentioned as a potential diversion.

Also it was reported that none of the cameras he had setup were recording. I try to keep the tinfoil hat off, but some of the stuff that officials are throwing out this morning has me wondering.

Just proving that they are complete idiots and don't know a damn thing other than one guy right now was found dead in a room from where several hundred shots were fired.

[Ben]

Also this all happened because of "white man rage". Funny how they never addressed "Islam man rage".

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2017/10/05/now-do-chicago-cnn-may-have-written-the-dumbest-op-ed-yet-about-white-men-and-guns/

[Fly320s]

From what I know of the people on this forum (not much, thankfully  ), I think I am one of the better trained and more practiced rifle/carbine shooters.  I feel highly confident shooting my carbines at human torso-sized targets inside 200 yards.  Beyond that, my confidence drops quickly.  To hit that Vegas shooter, at that distance and elevation change, under those conditions, I would need several shots and a spotter to walk the rounds on target.  There is no way I would have attempted to return fire in that scenario.

Talking about snipers and shooting distances:  Jeff Gonzales was a sniper with the Navy Seals.  He once told us that he would never guarantee a 1st shot hit beyond 100 meters and that was under nice, shooting range conditions.

[Perd Hapley]

Also this all happened because of "white man rage". Funny how they never addressed "Islam man rage".

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2017/10/05/now-do-chicago-cnn-may-have-written-the-dumbest-op-ed-yet-about-white-men-and-guns/

I wonder if they want to drive more white people into the "alt-right," or just provoke us into pointing out uncomfortable truths about which demographic groups are more inclined to misuse firearms. I guess either is a win for them.

[dogmush]

From what I know of the people on this forum (not much, thankfully  ), I think I am one of the better trained and more practiced rifle/carbine shooters.  I feel highly confident shooting my carbines at human torso-sized targets inside 200 yards.  Beyond that, my confidence drops quickly.  To hit that Vegas shooter, at that distance and elevation change, under those conditions, I would need several shots and a spotter to walk the rounds on target.  There is no way I would have attempted to return fire in that scenario.

Talking about snipers and shooting distances:  Jeff Gonzales was a sniper with the Navy Seals.  He once told us that he would never guarantee a 1st shot hit beyond 100 meters and that was under nice, shooting range conditions.

I agree. 

I routinely shoot steel at 600-800, and hit the 1000yd line at least once a year.  But not with patrol carbines.  That's a tough shot for a practiced shooter with good optics. And as you say, likely not a first round hit.

[Brad Johnson]

When out doing predator control (coyotes and feral hogs) it's pretty common to take a 100-150 yard snap shot but that's with a 100 yd zero, good optics, and a rifle I'm intimately familiar with. Beyond that, no dice. Holdover and general conditional variations make anything beyond about 200 yds a no-go zone.

Brad

[Ben]

I agree. 

I routinely shoot steel at 600-800, and hit the 1000yd line at least once a year.  But not with patrol carbines.  That's a tough shot for a practiced shooter with good optics. And as you say, likely not a first round hit.

I took a long range rifle class around 6-7 years ago. I hit the 1000 yard steel, but it took till almost till the end of the class. It was an 8 hour class. Admittedly 4 hours of classroom and a couple of hours spent closer in, but still. That was with a scoped 7MM. I also haven't practiced anywhere past 200 yards in several years. If you're not shooting that long distance all the time, I'm thinking, "good luck".

[dogmush]

I took a long range rifle class around 6-7 years ago. I hit the 1000 yard steel, but it took till almost till the end of the class. It was an 8 hour class. Admittedly 4 hours of classroom and a couple of hours spent closer in, but still. That was with a scoped 7MM. I also haven't practiced anywhere past 200 yards in several years. If you're not shooting that long distance all the time, I'm thinking, "good luck".

Yeah, the hit rate isn't great.  But one can only afford so much .50 ammo for practice.

On topic, I think a lot of folks don't really know how tough that shot would be to make.  The LV shooter was just dumping rounds into an area target.  Returning any kind of precise fire would be tough.

[Ben]

Based on the news I've seen this morning:

1) There's a run on bump stocks. Slide Fire has apparently stopped selling them on their website. No word on if they're sold out or just stopped selling.

2) I saw about a half dozen congressmen interviewed this morning. All of them favored banning bump stocks. All had an R next to their name. I'm going by my supposition that this is an easy way for the Rs to get ahead of things without affecting other gun rights. "Bump fire gone, check the box".

3) No word on if anyone is planning on banning 3D printer files.

[zxcvbob]

Freak, I don't know if you are being internet hard, or really think that, but no LEO agency, and hopefully no individual cops are going to actually say "*expletive deleted*ck those innocents, I guess it's collateral damage."  before they start shooting.

LV Metro PD might.

[slingshot]

I think a lot of folks don't really know how tough that shot would be to make.  The LV shooter was just dumping rounds into an area target.  Returning any kind of precise fire would be tough.

I agree based on what I have heard. I think he shot more than "several hundred rounds".  I also believe he had the bump fire device installed.  I suspect you will find them restricted in the future.

[BobR]

Based on the news I've seen this morning:

2) I saw about a half dozen congressmen interviewed this morning. All of them favored banning bump stocks. All had an R next to their name. I'm going by my supposition that this is an easy way for the Rs to get ahead of things without affecting other gun rights. "Bump fire gone, check the box".

I would love to see them tack the bump stock ban onto the Hearing protection Act. A good way to reach the objective of both issues, plus it would make D heads explode knowing they would have to vote for it in order to bring forth "sensible gun control".

I was listening to some guy this morning on the drive in and he couldn't understand why someone would need 1600 rounds of ammo, I wish I could have told him that *might* last someone like me about 3 days at the range.

bob

[DittoHead]

I would love to see them tack the bump stock ban onto the Hearing protection Act. A good way to reach the objective of both issues, plus it would make D heads explode knowing they would have to vote for it in order to bring forth "sensible gun control".

I like this idea. While any more restrictions is still a loss, I think the bump stocks are gonna go no matter what at this point. Might as well get something in exchange.

[Perd Hapley]

I like this idea. While any more restrictions is still a loss, I think the bump stocks are gonna go no matter what at this point. Might as well get something in exchange.

As long as we're banning something useless, let's get something useful. I don't think we'll get much of anything, though. It would be just like our beloved GOP, that the only campaign promise they let their president fulfill, legislatively, is that of banning a novelty gun accessory.