Go forth and steal, my children ---

[Scout26]

Yeowtch.  Careful with that broad sweeping judgement, you'll hit someone.  

I'll be sure to mention that to the people camped out in tents near creeks and rivers because they lost their jobs and couldn't pay their mortgage.

BryanP,

Having spent some time with the homeless, I can state that there a quite a few (a majority) that choose "homelessness" as a lifestyle.   Those that lose their jobs, can't pay the mortgage, generally bust their tails to get out their homelessness and return to being part of society in short order. 

[BryanP]

BryanP,

Having spent some time with the homeless, I can state that there a quite a few (a majority) that choose "homelessness" as a lifestyle.   Those that lose their jobs, can't pay the mortgage, generally bust their tails to get out their homelessness and return to being part of society in short order. 

Perhaps.  On a similar note, you might say that a majority of people with HIV are that way because of their behavior (unprotected sex or drug use).  But I can point you to the grave of a very nice lady whose only sin was to marry a man who went out, got himself infected and then came home and gave it to her. 

Most of the people in prison are guilty.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't use new methods (DNA) to check old evidence and possibly exonerate some of those who were wrongly convicted.

If helping people who are down on their luck and trying to make a better life means I also help people who choose to mooch off of society, well ... that's my choice.

[MechAg94]

Too funny. Of course there are no grey areas anywhere, ever. Car breaks down in the middle of frozen nowhere and you find a cabin with food and fuel so you use both to survive. You can leave money, but you still stole. Steal or die - and there are people in these situations daily, UK, US and everywhere.

No.  There is no grey area.  The grey area is of your own invention.  Stealing is wrong and you should try like hell not to do it.  I understand that some people steel anyway because they need it, they weren't prepared, or they in bad straights, but that doesn't make it right.  No matter how you justify it, it is still stealing.  IMO, saying it is okay this time is just deluding yourself and setting yourself up to make the same mistakes that put you in that position to start with.

It is sort of philosophical thing with me and just the way I approach it.  I might find myself in a position where I would steal also, but I am not going to try to justify it as right.  Lying to yourself or others or making excuses to justify your own bad actions/decisions is not a good path to travel.  

[MechAg94]

Perhaps.  On a similar note, you might say that a majority of people with HIV are that way because of their behavior (unprotected sex or drug use).  But I can point you to the grave of a very nice lady whose only sin was to marry a man who went out, got himself infected and then came home and gave it to her.  

Most of the people in prison are guilty.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't use new methods (DNA) to check old evidence and possibly exonerate some of those who were wrongly convicted.

If helping people who are down on their luck and trying to make a better life means I also help people who choose to mooch off of society, well ... that's my choice.

But do you have to do it with my tax dollars?  :D

The problem I have sometimes is trying to talk about what we can do to focus on those few and weed out the freeloaders.  I tried to start a discussion about the school lunch program once on another site and actually got accused of wanting to starve kids. 

[BryanP]

It is sort of philosophical thing with me and just the way I approach it.  I might find myself in a position where I would steal also, but I am not going to try to justify it as right.  Lying to yourself or others or making excuses to justify your own bad actions/decisions is not a good path to travel.  

This I can agree with. In the right circumstances anyone would steal.  The question is whether you feel it is wrong to do so and whether you try to make up for it at a later date.

Personally?  If I had no choice but to steal to feed my family I would do so.  Once things improved I would do what it took to make reparations, up to and including turning myself in to the police for the theft.

[Balog]

I differentiate between someone who is between housing, and someone who is "homeless." Much as there is a difference between someone who is between jobs, and someone who doesn't work.

[MechAg94]

This I can agree with. In the right circumstances anyone would steal.  The question is whether you feel it is wrong to do so and whether you try to make up for it at a later date.

Personally?  If I had no choice but to steal to feed my family I would do so.  Once things improved I would do what it took to make reparations, up to and including turning myself in to the police for the theft.

More than likely, you would also be taking actions to avoid that situation long before you got there also. 
That is the main reason I say it as I do.  In almost any situation, you could have made better decisions or done something different to avoid the bad outcome.  If you don't take some time to think about that and be honest with yourself, you will end up in the same situation again.

[Scout26]

I tried to start a discussion about the school lunch program once on another site and actually got accused of wanting to starve kids. 

How about selling them to the soylent green program....  Two problems solved... 

[MillCreek]

If helping people who are down on their luck and trying to make a better life means I also help people who choose to mooch off of society, well ... that's my choice.

I could not agree more.  And we probably all have a list of things that we do not wish to support with our tax dollars.  I do not necessarily ascribe to the Dickensian view of the poor as do some members here, and I suspect that some of the attitudes espoused herein may change if job loss and homelessness hits home for them.

[Perd Hapley]

Oh the outrage.

I listened to this guy on the radio yesterday and as usual everyone has focused on the controversial and missed his main point.

   Imagine that.  A guy says something controversial, and people react to it.   

So his main point was missed.  Such a tragedy.  Guess he shoulda stuck to that whole Bible thing. 


A fellow called into a local radio show and pointed out that Christ dealt with a great many poor people (maybe even more than Iain) yet never advocated theft.  That being said, I believe Old Testament law directed that the poor were allowed to glean the left-over grains from the fields.  Which would not equate to stealing.  FWIW

[280plus]

Quote from: MechAg94 on Today at 02:42:59 PM
I tried to start a discussion about the school lunch program once on another site and actually got accused of wanting to starve kids.

Why do you want to starve kids? Seems awfully wasteful to me. What you SHOULD do is feed them well and plumpen them up for the pot. 

I wonder if the Rev was trying to ease the minds of those who are now tortured by their sin of stealing to survive. Just an idle thought.

[Perd Hapley]

No, that's what the Gospel is for.  All that forgiveness stuff. 

Besides, talk like that is more likely to "ease" those who've stolen for less sympathetic reasons. 

[280plus]

true, there are those pesky hangers on, I hate those.

[280plus]

For a nanosecond there I was wondering how the Gospel was for plumpening up children for the pot. 

[Stand_watie]

Too funny. Of course there are no grey areas anywhere, ever. ..

     How about murder Ian? Any grey areas? Suppose to save your five kids and wife from dying of cancer you just have to murder one advanced Alzheimer's patient who has less than 12 months to live anyway. All you have to do is get a syringe, the right drug, put it in her IV bag and press the plunger. Will you do it?

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

I thought this thread was Zardoz related. "Go forth and kill! Zardoz has spoken." - because Zardoz never gets tired of hearing his name. If you were a crazy immortal fellow with a sharpied-on mustache and silly hat, stupid things like that would make you happy, too.
Anyway. Merry Christmas. And don't shoplift. Kbye.

[Stand_watie]

Perhaps we do. I don't see that as a "social gospel" but as Christian love...

O.K. You and I are on the same page. You see "Christian Love" in the same way I see "Social Gospel"...IE Not a way for the government to work, but a way for the "widow" with her "mite" to work.

[Stand_watie]

... I believe Old Testament law directed that the poor were allowed to glean the left-over grains from the fields.  Which would not equate to stealing.  FWIW

FWIW, a good reason for that. Because the "Old Testament" in the Christian Bible, The "Torah" Of the Jewish faith Pre-scribes that farmers leave left-overs in their fields, specifically for the hungry/homeless members of their society...

      Gleaning that leftover DEFINITELY is not stealing

Leviticus 19
“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the Lord your God.

[Hawkmoon]

FWIW, a good reason for that. Because the "Old Testament" in the Christian Bible, The "Torah" Of the Jewish faith Pre-scribes that farmers leave left-overs in their fields, specifically for the hungry/homeless members of their society...

      Gleaning that leftover DEFINITELY is not stealing

Leviticus 19
“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the Lord your God.

I suppose the modern-day equivalent for that would be for Wal-Mart not to have all their Christmas stuff marked down 80 percent on December 26 but to just open the doors and let people take it all for nothing. Makes sense to me, but I'm sure hundreds of people would be trampled in the inevitable stampedes. Can't stock up enough on tree ornaments and wrapping paper for next year, you know.

[vaskidmark]

FWIW, a good reason for that. Because the "Old Testament" in the Christian Bible, The "Torah" Of the Jewish faith Pre-scribes that farmers leave left-overs in their fields, specifically for the hungry/homeless members of their society...

      Gleaning that leftover DEFINITELY is not stealing

Leviticus 19
“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the Lord your God.

That comes from the notion that once you have been provided with "enough" it becomes both unnecessary and "a sin" to scrape up every last dropped grain or grape.  Further, it allows for the fulfilling of the mitzvah (commandment, also blessing) of providing charity to the poor without having to expend energy in doing so.  The poor are provided for without having to undergo the shame of asking for charity (begging) and the "haves" provide for them without having to be taxed to support a public charity (welfare).

Somewhere someone taught me that there were various "levels" of charitable giving, and that the "highest" (most worthy) was when the giver was unknown to the recipient and the recipient was unknown to the giver.  The widow's mite (the gleanings of the field) qualify for although the identity of the owner of the land is known, the actual reaper of the field is unknown.  One reaper may be more or less "efficient" than another, thus creating a variance in the amount of gleanings available amongst fields.

Along that line, it is amazing that smaller mom&pop stores are more able to give their "gleanings" to those in need than are the big chain stores who are hamstrung by both corporate policy, risk aversion, and municipal fiat.

In any case, I'd rather see the hungry come and ask for food than have them steal it.  The same holds for those that need shelter or other types of support.  If they can't deal with the self-esteem issues then they need to either go find an ice floe or pick themselves up by their bootstraps and become self-sufficient.

stay safe.

skidmark