ATTN: Teh Nooz. Countries Full Of Rioting Mobs Do Not Follow Social Conventions

[AZRedhawk44]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/15/60minutes/main20032070.shtml?tag=exclsv

Poor woman.

When you go for the big story, into a place of lawlessness, bad things can sometimes happen.

And the appeal to Justice after the fact can be empty.  I can't imagine being that stripped of self-determination and power and having no sense of retribution or justice yet to come later.  No story is worth it.

It might be a bit sexist to say, but I hope it gives other women in journalism pause, when it comes to covering stories in the midst of Civil War, riots, war zones or other places of lawlessness and violence.

[Jamisjockey]

Hell, that could happen in nearly every major city and some college towns in this country, much less Egypt and abroad....

[MicroBalrog]

If you think these animals wouldn't do it to a man, you've got another thing coming.

[SADShooter]

1) Stand by watching as someone kicks hornets' nest to observe reaction

2) Hornets emerge angry.

3) You get stung.

4) PROFIT!   

You want the glory of bravely risking yourself to get the big story, the operative word becomes RISK.

Sympathy available in the standard dictionary location.

[HankB]

A woman in an Arab/Islamic nation, clearly not a local, not even wearing a burka/chador/hijab/whatever, going into the middle of a civil disturbance . . .

What did she expect?

("The stoopid, it HURTZ!")

[MicroBalrog]

A woman in an Arab/Islamic nation, clearly not a local, not even wearing a burka/chador/hijab/whatever, going into the middle of a civil disturbance . . .

Again I ask: Do you think that a man in this situation would not be horribly assaulted/beaten up?

Of course, Chadors/hijabs are not ubiquitous in Egypt:

[Northwoods]

Maybe not MB, but toeheads are far from the norm.  They kinda stick out in a place like Egypt.  It's like waving bacon, or suggesting detcord as problem solver around here.  It gets people's attention.  And in a place the Egypt, in the current climate, drawing attention to ones self is probably not advisable.

[Balog]

On the one hand, it's always a horrible thing when a person is beaten and raped like this.

On the other hand, placing yourself in the middle of a violent mob has predictable consequences. Made worse by being an obviously white non-Muslim woman, no doubt. But as MB says it's likely either gender would've been beaten, although I'm not sure about the rape part.

[Viking]

A Swedish reporter got beaten and stabbed almost to death just a week or so ago in Egypt.

[De Selby]

I don't think women should have to assume it's predictable to be raped - all the blame for this is on the mob of chimps that committed the crime.  

She's entitled to walk the town just like any other human being, and instead of "Eh, you should have seen that coming", we should be admiring her courage in facing the risks.

[MicroBalrog]

I don't think women should have to assume it's predictable to be raped - all the blame for this is on the mob of chimps that committed the crime.  

She's entitled to walk the town just like any other human being, and instead of "Eh, you should have seen that coming", we should be admiring her courage in facing the risks.

What he said.

[AZRedhawk44]

I don't think women should have to assume it's predictable to be raped - all the blame for this is on the mob of chimps that committed the crime.  

She's entitled to walk the town just like any other human being, and instead of "Eh, you should have seen that coming", we should be admiring her courage in facing the risks.

Dude.

War and lawlessness is THE ABSENSE OF LAW.

These wonderful social conventions we have (drive on the correct side of the road, wait for stoplights, pay for things, don't rape random women) are a paper-thin veneer that isn't much of a shield against savagery.

When the savagery is out... the veneer is gone. 

When countries are trying to throw off their government for whatever reason, you must take into account that opportunistic animals will be present and active.

Assuming that the flimsy social conventions we have in the West will still protect you as a woman in the midst of a revolution in a foreign culture, is the height of hubris and ugly-Americanism that foreign nationals love to point out about us so often.

I ain't saying it's right... I'm simply saying that it IS.

"Is" and "should" are two very different things.

[Jamisjockey]

I don't think women should have to assume it's predictable to be raped - all the blame for this is on the mob of chimps that committed the crime.  

She's entitled to walk the town just like any other human being, and instead of "Eh, you should have seen that coming", we should be admiring her courage in facing the risks.

Your ignorance of the third world thinking of the middle east astounds me.  The entire region and culture thinks of women as second class property. 

[vaskidmark]

In our worlds she might be "entitled", but she was not in our world when this happened.  Certain different cultural norms existed where she was, and she bears personal responsibility for being aware of those norms and acting accordingly.  I am not intending to accuse/convict all Egyptians of being non-secular, non-Westernized, boy-loving/woman-denigrating goatherders, but by all reports that night the crowd (mob?) was not all focused on pure political ideals of Jeffersonian representative democracy.  Several other news reporting crews have been attacked, and all report that to one extent or another the attacks contained elements of the influence of fundamentalist Muslim - words chanted in unison by several members of the crowd, indicators of membership in the Muslim Brotherhood, etc.

I am not saying those cultural norms are commendable.

But just like here at home where we know there are certain parts of town where it is not considered safe to go strolling alone after dark, someone who takes the known risk shares in the responsibility when things happen to them.

Knowing the risks and taking them in order to bring the news out gets my admiration and an open admission of great courage on her part.  But please refer to the first part of that sentence again.  She did not wade into that crowd wearing rose-colored glasses with a Polyanna attitude in her heart.

Because I come from "our" world I am outraged at what happened and think that horsewhipping the perpetrators is not good enough punishment.  Had I come, instead, from "their" world I might think nothing of the event, or want to commend those who participated.

Trying to impose the values from home onto life in places where you are not at home any more can be dangerous.  I believe the saying is "the stupid should hurt"?

stay safe.

[De Selby]

Okay, first off, by all accounts, Tahrir square wasn't a lawless warzone - it was actually fairly well organised.

Second, rates of violence against women in the middle east (including egypt) are not actually that much higher than in the United States.  That's a common misconception fuelled by stories like this; the reality is that gang rapes happen in parks and at parties in the United States all too often.  That "social convention" exists no more in our homeland than it does in Egypt.

The biggest apparent difference is that in the middle east men are at similar risk of rape as women.  The Egyptian security services were notorious for raping male activists.

But back to the original point, this was an "well, she should have known better" post.  Actually, if she was fully aware of the risk, we should be saying "she is brave; let's all extend her our admiration for having the stones to behave as a human being amongst animals.  Hopefully she inspires other women to challenge this bs notion that they should live their lives according to the dictates of rapists."

[De Selby]

Your ignorance of the third world thinking of the middle east astounds me.  The entire region and culture thinks of women as second class property. 

"The entire region and culture" are not defined by Saudi Arabia; notice that the recent protests have involved large proportions of women....so no, the entire region does not think of women like that.  In fact, they're busy trying to roast the dictatorships that do actually promote that view.

[De Selby]

Trying to impose the values from home onto life in places where you are not at home any more can be dangerous.  I believe the saying is "the stupid should hurt"?

stay safe.

Think about this for a moment: Did you say that when the first soldiers died fighting for the American project to create a democracy in Iraq???  Would you have expected anyone else to dare say the same, ie, "Oh well, look, those Arabs don't want our democracy...if you get blown up trying to give it to them, the stupid should hurt!"

That would be offensive in the extreme, but here a woman wants to report on Egypt and, well, be a woman in a middle eastern crowd, and it's okay for us to say "eh, she should've seen it coming, the stupid should hurt"?

[HankB]

Again I ask: Do you think that a man in this situation would not be horribly assaulted/beaten up?

Of course, Chadors/hijabs are not ubiquitous in Egypt:

Would you accept that being an obvious foreigner from the West puts a woman in a rather different category than if she were a local, especially in the middle of a mob?

I don't think women should have to assume it's predictable to be raped - all the blame for this is on the mob of chimps that committed the crime. 

She's entitled to walk the town just like any other human being, and instead of "Eh, you should have seen that coming", we should be admiring her courage in facing the risks.

I believe it's called willful blindness to confuse what should be with what actually is.  And all the self-rightous indignation in the world won't help when objective reality hits you in the face.

[Jamisjockey]

"The entire region and culture" are not defined by Saudi Arabia; notice that the recent protests have involved large proportions of women....so no, the entire region does not think of women like that.  In fact, they're busy trying to roast the dictatorships that do actually promote that view.

A growing women's movement doesn't change the prevailing attitude overnight.  And that attitude persists throughout the region.  Might it change, maybe. 
She didn't deserve to be attacked.  She's a reporter, though, and they risk life and bodily harm to get the story.  Some have died to get the story.  My sympathy for her is tempered by the fact that she put herself in harms way in a culture that doesn't respect women in the same way we do.

[RevDisk]

I don't think women should have to assume it's predictable to be raped - all the blame for this is on the mob of chimps that committed the crime.  

She's entitled to walk the town just like any other human being, and instead of "Eh, you should have seen that coming", we should be admiring her courage in facing the risks.

I agree with you.  She should be able to walk anywhere in the world in a string bikini stuffed with hundred dollar bills and not have to worry in the least.  Around here, she'd risk frostbite but she probably could do so without other worries.  That doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea to do so in all places at all times, either in Egypt during unrest or Oakland any day of the week.  Not all places are equal.

The blame does deserve to be put squarely on the mob.  Doesn't mean that reporters (and bloody everyone else) shouldn't use situational awareness.  Lacking situational awareness is not necessarily equal to courage.  Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.  There's a very good reason for the phrase "Discretion is the better part of valor."

[Ben]

I agree with you.  She should be able to walk anywhere in the world in a string bikini stuffed with hundred dollar bills and not have to worry in the least.  Around here, she'd risk frostbite but she probably could do so without other worries.  That doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea to do so in all places at all times, either in Egypt during unrest or Oakland any day of the week.  Not all places are equal.

The blame does deserve to be put squarely on the mob.  Doesn't mean that reporters (and bloody everyone else) shouldn't use situational awareness.  Lacking situational awareness is not necessarily equal to courage.  Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.  There's a very good reason for the phrase "Discretion is the better part of valor."

Thread win.

[roo_ster]

Yay for the new & improved rapists in Egypt!

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/312107.php

Makes sense. Depose a tyrant, why not top it off with a rape of the infidel?...

...goddamn if I am not weary of a barbaric desert nomad culture of rape and outrage while carrying around a ton of chip-on-the-shoulder arrogance-hiding-profound-insecurity about it all.

Oh right, a thousand years ago they invented algebra. So, like, they should keep doing victory laps over that.

[Balog]

In a fantasy land utopia any woman could go anywhere and be safe. Given that this is not a fantasy land utopia, when you take risks you... well, run the risk of bad things happening. It's horrific, but I'd be saying the same thing if a male reporter was beaten to death by the mob. Some risks are worth it, some are huge and foolish. I'd say this was one of the latter.

[AJ Dual]

It's always a difficult discussion to not blame the victim, while also answering the question "Would you let your wife/mother/sister/daughter go there?" honestly as well.

There are different kinds of blame and wrong.

What the mob did was morally wrong, and evil.

What she may or may not have done to get into that situation may or may not have been prudent.

[MicroBalrog]

I live in the Middle East, I remind you. I work and study with Arabs - Muslim and otherwise - and I have served in the military with Bedouins and Druze.

This bizarre idea that this evil, monstrous act could not have happened among a bunch of drunken Serbians, Russians, Germans or inner-city Detroiters is just that - a bizarre, unrealistic idea.

This has little to do with lawlessness - most people in the world are not rapist scum, and will not rape a woman. Even on Tahrir  Square, this woman was rescued by other Egyptians.

Violent rapist scum are the exception, everywhere.