Turn in disability cheat?

[Monkeyleg]

There's a guy I met at the range several years ago. We became friends, but not close friends.

The guy is about my age (mid-fifties), but what always struck me was that he was at the range just about every time I'd go there.

I don't like to pry into people's personal lives, but curiousity finally got the best of me. I asked him what he did for a living that allowed him to spend so much time during the week at the range.

Well, turned out he'd been on disability from the city since 1985. Hadn't worked a day since.

A couple of years ago he and his wife retired to another state. He's still getting his disability checks from the city up here.

He emails me every two or three days with targets that only someone who spends that amount of time at the range can shoot (yeah, some jealousy there).

He also sends me emails with pictures of him doing other things: mountain biking, building storage sheds in his yard, etc.

Today he emailed me a photo of him shovelling the four tons of rocks that his wife had delivered to put in and around their garden.

Four tons. Disability? What disability? He told me his disability was back-related.

I'm really struggling with this. On the one hand, I like the guy. On the other hand, he's been ripping off the taxpayers for over 20 years, and living a nice life as well.

There isn't a week that goes by that I'm not tempted to call the city and see if there's a department that investigates disability fraud. There probably isn't, since the city workers take care of their own.

What would you do? Would you be a "rat," or would you be outraged that someone could receive a nice middle-class income for over twenty years for doing nothing, and now do nothing in another state and still collect?

[Devonai]

I'd ask him a few questions before I dropped the dime on him.  Was the disability claim legitimate to begin with?  Did he, at any point, become capable of doing the job he was doing at the time he was hurt?  If not, is there _any_ job he can do (i.e. ride a desk)?

If he can work, and doesn't, he's a jerk.  However, his disability may still be legitimate.  The law may be flawed in favor of jerks.  Write your reps.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

I'd be torn, just as you seem to be.

I'd probably err on the side of leaving it alone, since he's far from the only person riding the dole illegitimately, and it's not MY job to be the dole police.

Just my dos pesos, my friend.

[Preacherman]

Don't forget that he may be officially "disabled", whether he likes it or not.

Let me give myself as an example.  I was injured on the job back in February 2004, and have had two surgeries since then, the last being a spinal fusion.  I've been left with permanent nerve damage in my lower back and left leg:  I'm officially diagnosed as 50% "lower left extremity" and 20% "whole body" permanently disabled.  I'm in constant low-grade pain, and need a stick for anything more than minimal walking.

As a result, the Federal Bureau of Prisons discharged me from its service, and granted me a disability retirement pension.  I pointed out that I was more than capable of working as a chaplain in a minimum- or low-security prison, where the risk of getting into a physical confrontation is negligible compared to the high-security prison where I worked before (fights and assaults on staff were a routine, almost daily occurrence).  However, the BOP insists that all its staff, whether cooks, secretaries, chaplains or CO's, must be fully fit and capable of responding to any emergency that may arise.  Any physical limitation that may restrict this ability is grounds for dismissal.  As a result, I'm officially "medically retired".

Your acquaintance may be in a similar position.  He might have suffered an injury that has disqualified him, in terms of the regulations of his employer, from retaining his position there:  and since they're the ones who are firing him on medical grounds, if he was injured on the job, yes, he's legitimately entitled to a disability pension, because they are the ones declaring him to be disabled.  Of course, his disability might not stop him doing other work, just as my disability won't stop me from doing other work:  but it nevertheless counts as "disability" under the rules and regulations implemented by his employer.

Under such circumstances, I don't think he's "faking" anything, or ripping anyone off.  Of course, if this is not the case, and he spun his employers a sob story and got his disability pension through lying, that changes everything:  but that's not always the way it is.

Hope the illustration helps.

[Monkeyleg]

Devnonai, I remember a few years ago he was working part-time for a guy who runs an ammo reloading business, supplying local PD's with practice ammo. My friend would churn out 10,000 rounds or more in a day.

The guy's business was really taking off, and he asked my friend to work more hours.

My friend told him that he couldn't do that without losing his disability.

Obviously, my friend is capable of holding a full-time job.

This guy isn't the only one I know who's scamming the system. Off the top of my head I can probably name three who haven't worked for decades, even though they're perfectly capable.

As for the legitimacy of his claim, I don't want to go into details that might give others here knowledge of who he is. Let's just say that the city dragged its feet, and the judge hearing his disability case got fed up with the city and said "Joe Blow" is disabled.

Maybe it's part jealousy. Maybe it's all jealousy. All I know is that I've been working as hard as I can for as long as I can remember, and the gubmint has never paid me a dime. Nor did I ask for a dime.

Preacherman, if you can do all of the above that I've described my friend as doing, you need to get a job. Somehow, I doubt that you can shovel four tons of rock over a weekend, or go mountain biking, or build sheds and other buildings on your property yourself.

I'm paying for this guy's leisurely lifestyle. I'm also paying for many neighbors and acquaintances who like the idea of collecting unemployment insurance during the summer. As the owner of my own one-person business, 3.6% of my pay goes to give those folks a government-sponsored summer holiday.

The least they could do is come over and mow my lawn.

I guess the question boils down to whether you or I are willing to turn someone in for violating a law and, much more importantly, what that law is.

I had a former neighbor who literally had a couple of boxes of M16 trigger groups he brought back home from his days as an armorer in VietNam. Would I turn him in? No. The NFA, and the NFA-related portions of the FOPA of 1986, are laws that are crazy.

But now I'm talking about some folks who aren't just robbing other citizens, but they're robbing me, and at a time when I can least afford to be robbed by the tax collectors.

[Art Eatman]

There's a gal in Terlingua whom the doctors mis-diagnosed.  They told her she had Lupus, back some 15 years ago.  She didn't give up.  She did finally find some treatment that eased her symptoms.  Kept on being a river guide as long as she could.  Dunno if you know, but that's some truly hard physical work.

She qualified, really, for SS Disability, but wouldn't apply.  Even after she had knee replacement and her wrists became too decrepit to row, she found other things to do.  All her spare money went into building her house, over a five year period.  She worked as a driver for back-country jeep tours, and worked or tourism development in a couple of places in Mexico and in Cuba.

Then it was discovered she'd all along had Lyme's Disease.

I haven't kept track these last couple of years, but I don't think she's ever filed for disability.  

I have zero qualms about "ratting out" a suspected scammer.  Zilch.

Back to this case:  The guy sends a picture of moving four tons of rock with a shovel?  And he has a bad back?  I have a bad back of my own; and I really don't think you'll find Preacherman volunteering to work a Mexican Backhoe.  I say the dude lives in Scam City.

A false disability claim is a felony.  The guy used a pen instead of a gun, but he's stealing.

What to do?  Print out that email picture, write up what's known, and send it to the appropriate district attorney.  

I think of all the TFL/THR talk about shooting a holdup guy who's gonna get $50, but then somebody's gonna give a free ride to a guy who's scammed thousands?

Not me.

Art

[The Rabbi]

I'm with Monkeyleg that anyone capable of shoveling 4 tons of rock, mountain biking etc etc is fully capable of doing whatever.  He should make the tip.  Then it is up to the city investigators to decide.  If the guy is genuinely disabled then no problem.  If he isnt then maybe disability chiselers will start getting the idea that they at least need to act disabled in public.  THis kind of stuff drives up costs for everyone.  I couldnt count how many "cut and sew" factories in this country have gone out of business because their disability premiums went through the roof.  Yeah, its one guy.  But "all it takes for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing."

[Werewolf]

Gather up all the e'mails, pics etc and turn the dead beat sucker off the government teat in. Let the beaurocrats sort it out.

If he is really scamming the system then a low life thief (he's stealing our taxes) is caught. If not and he really is still disabled (though it doesn't seem like based on the description of his activities) then no harm done.

Caveats:

His disability may be mental and not physical and may not be apparent to those with a relationship that is little more than acquaintance.

Folks declared disabled are usually audited every 2 or 3 years based on the disability.

[Firethorn]

His disability may be mental and not physical and may not be apparent to those with a relationship that is little more than acquaintance.

That's the type I hate most.  It'd be sooo easy for me to do it, but then I'd be a burden on everyone else

Folks declared disabled are usually audited every 2 or 3 years based on the disability.

I'd hope so.  England also has this problem.  The worst I read about is they caught this guy who'd been on disability for 12 years or something for being barely able to walk.  They caught him running half marathons.  His disability paperwork said he became exhausted walking in less than a hundred meters, six or so stairs.

On the other hand, my grandfather truly has difficulty walking.  He had polio when he was young, then was in an accident at work(for the NY state gov).  A jack failed and dropped a snow plow truck on him*.  Both took a heavy toll on his spine.  Doctors were all saying he'd never walk again.  Heck, they estimated he'd be dead within five years.  NYS decided that declaring him disabled would be cheaper than retraining him.  This turned out to be a bad guess, but I'm only happy for that.

Still, because of his injuries**, he is unable to walk very well, so those jobs are out, is unable to simply stand for long periods of time, and at the same time is unable to sit for extended periods of time.  Unable to do his job as a vehicle mechanic anymore, he'd need to be retrained, and the state declined to do so.

Still, especially with today's ADA requirements/regulations, I think there are very few disabilities that would justify permanent disability today.  Maybe partial disability payments, maybe a picking up of continuing medical care expenses.  That's the reason my grandfather never retrained.  With his injuries, NYS had declared him disabled, so they weren't going to hire him back, but if he found work elsewhere and lost his disability, his new employer would have to pick up the tab for the continuing expenses, and that would have been too expensive for any employer.  So Grampa became the stay at home and grandma worked.

*This was before safety regs were anywhere as tight, of course.  I use jackstands.
**His spine is not only fused, it has a couple ribs moved back there for reinforcement.

[jefnvk]

Do you know exactly what this disability is, and why it is he can' work?  Back-related sounds pretty vague.

I wouldn't even think about it unless he's said he is scamming them.  And honestly, even then, it isn't really my place to turn him in.  Were I to be questioned about it, I wouldn't lie, but again, I wouldn't bring the issue up.

[Otherguy Overby]

I know someone from the track who's a cop (motorcycle) out on some kind of permanent disability.  He's out most race weekends for three days with his motorhome, wife, dog & friends.

I asked about it once after he'd had a few cocktails in the evening.  He mentioned he'd been in three on duty shootings (justifiable).  There was a gang war going on at the time and the local gangs would sometimes even do drivebys on the cop shop every now and then, too.  Seems there's some limit to the number of on duty shootings a cop can have  somewhere in the LA area.   He also mentioned the three shootings were the ones they "knew" about...  Sounds like either a bit of leg pulling or a LawDog style story in there somewhere.

[doczinn]

Turn him in.

No if, ands, or buts about it.

He's stealing money from you.

Do it anonymously, on the chance he's somehow not faking.

[Guest]

The money he's getting was stolen in the first place. It cannot be traced back and returned to the original owner(s). It is up for grabs. He is getting some of the stolen money back from the state. Leave him be.

 More generally, I hope that this makes you see the evil of the state and all of its welfare programs.

[Werewolf]

The money he's getting was stolen in the first place. It cannot be traced back and returned to the original owner(s). It is up for grabs. He is getting some of the stolen money back from the state. Leave him be.

 More generally, I hope that this makes you see the evil of the state and all of its welfare programs.

Regardless of how one describes the method the state uses to originally acquire the funds it distributes to whomever it determines needs to be in the distribution channels adding one's self to the distribution channels thru fraud is immoral, dishonest and I'm 99.99% sure illegal. It's theft pure and simple.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

If the guy's suffering from something like epilepsy, he could be normal 99% of the time but still unable to do a lot of things.

I vote MYOB.

- NF

[charby]

I had a friend that got a disability check for a head injury he has fine 99% of the time, but every now and then something shut down in his head and he just didn't function right. He'd become all confused and disorientated, sometimes scare the hell out of me.

Unless you knew him you would have no clue unless you were around him when it kicked in.

-C

[The Rabbi]

I had a friend that got a disability check for a head injury he has fine 99% of the time, but every now and then something shut down in his head and he just didn't function right. He'd become all confused and disorientated, sometimes scare the hell out of me.

Unless you knew him you would have no clue unless you were around him when it kicked in.

-C

And if this situation is like that, then nothing will happen to the guy.
All the "turn him in" crowd is saying is, if he is committing fraud, then it needs to stop.  But it isnt up to us to make that determination.  Thats the state's job.

[Werewolf]

I had a friend that got a disability check for a head injury he has fine 99% of the time, but every now and then something shut down in his head and he just didn't function right. He'd become all confused and disorientated, sometimes scare the hell out of me.

Unless you knew him you would have no clue unless you were around him when it kicked in.

-C

And if this situation is like that, then nothing will happen to the guy.
All the "turn him in" crowd is saying is, if he is committing fraud, then it needs to stop.  But it isnt up to us to make that determination.  Thats the state's job.

Exactly!

[Monkeyleg]

He has told me that he injured his back and neck.

He also told me that he had applied for disability with the city back in 1984, but the city was dragging its heels. So he took the case to court, and the judge got mad that the city was taking so long, and declared that he was disabled.

True? Don't know.

There are a lot of things I cannot do because of my back, and most everyone who knows me is aware of that. If I don't pitch in on lifting something, nobody calls me a slacker. They know the situation.

I have yet to see this guy hampered from doing anything. I certainly can't shovel four tons of rocks.

Sometimes I think he's tweaking my nose with all this. For example, when I say that I wish I could spend the time that he does at the range, he'll say, "Dick, your problem is that you have to work. I don't."

Or, when I say that I'm not sure I could fully retire, he'll say, "I haven't worked in twenty years, so this isn't any different. And even when I was working for the city, I didn't have to do much."

Those kinds of comments raise my blood pressure.

Still, the idea of turning the guy in, assuming it's even possible, really gnaws at me.

[jefnvk]

It went to court and a judge declared him disabled, even if it was because the city was trying to get out of paying him, I don't see how he is really cheating the system there.

[doczinn]

The money he's getting was stolen in the first place. It cannot be traced back and returned to the original owner(s). It is up for grabs. He is getting some of the stolen money back from the state. Leave him be.

Every dollar he steals from the system is another dollar that will be stolen from the populace to pay for all of the other government projects.

[brimic]

I live with Sciatica every day. There are days when I get home for work and curl up in a ball on the bed for 1/2 hr because I can barely walk after standing on concrete floors all day. If I stand in one spot for more than a minute, I lose feeling in my right leg and pain sets in- people think I'm hyper or fidgety, but if I stand still it hurts.  I never miss a day at work or complain about my back pain at work. I've been living with back pain since I was 16 and crushed a lumbar vertebrae in a car accident, back pain to me is a pretty normal baseline feeling. If you are looking for a sympathetic view towards someone who can shovel 4 tons of rocks but cannot hold a job, you are asking the wrong person.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

And if this situation is like that, then nothing will happen to the guy.

Incorrect. He will then be in a mess he wasn't in before and have to explain his way out of it to an unsympathetic government.

- NF

[The Rabbi]

And if this situation is like that, then nothing will happen to the guy.

Incorrect. He will then be in a mess he wasn't in before and have to explain his way out of it to an unsympathetic government.

- NF

I marvel at your powers of prophecy.
You have absolutely no way of knowing what the state's procedures are in this situation, given their file on the person.  There are any number of possibilities, including that the state will simply ignore the tip because their investigators are too busy with something else.
He will get into hot water and face an unsympathetic government if he is indeed chiseling them.  Which is how it ought to be.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Rabbi, that's getting close to an ad hominem. But I won't take that bait.

Didn't some guy, a long time ago, find something chiseled on a rock about not bearing false witness?  I think that also applies to bearing witness where one is not certain of the facts.

I can't share your trust that the government will always do the right thing in such cases. I would rather give my fellow man the benefit of the doubt.

- NF