Cold laser therapy devices

[K Frame]

Seren's been having growing problems with arthritis in her knees. She's getting older, just like Dad.

The vet put her on gapentin two weeks ago, and that's been helping, but not enough. Yesterday I got a prescription for a different medication that several friends have used very successfully with their dogs, so that should be here from Chewy in a few days.

But, I also decided to look into "cold" red laser therapy devices. There's a lot of information on the use of cold laser therapy on both humans and pets, so I ordered a device from Chewy. $200, but I feel better about getting it from Chewy than getting it from Amazon.

It came last night, and after reading up on the materials, I decided to give it a test run... on me.

I did several 5 minute treatments on my knees, which have been really problematic for me over the past couple of years.

I don't know if it actually helped or if it's psychosomatic, but I'll be damned if my knees don't feel better this morning. A LOT better.

After I treated myself to make sure there weren't going to be any adverse effects, I started Seren with treatment on her left knee, which is the more problematic of the two. She wasn't particularly crazy about me touching her knee for so long, but she let me complete the treatment.

And she also seems to feel a little bit better this morning, so I'll be doing both of her knees (and mine) again this evening.

Anything to make my best girl more comfortable.

[Kingcreek]

You probably didn’t get a class 3b for $200. That’s the power range that has shown benefits.
Class 1, 2, or 3R don’t have enough juice to do anything.

[HankB]

Class 3B lasers are definitely NOT eye safe. Near-infrared lasers are particularly hazardous because there's no blink reflex at "invisible" near infrared wavelengths, but the eye's lens and cornea are still transparent to these wavelengths.

For that reason, I wonder if the "laser" devices that claim NIR wavelengths are using actual laser diodes or just LEDs.

I'm EXTREMELY skeptical about the supposed therapeutic effects of low power laser light.

[K Frame]

I believe that it's a class 2 device.

And yeah, even class 1 and 2 devices have been shown to have beneficial therapeutic effects, albeit at a slower, lower rate. Lots of information out there on them.

Class 3/4 are stuff you really don't want to mess around with at home.

[Ben]

Laser therapy was actually part of my physical therapy a couple of months ago for my knee injury. The PT applied it after my workout and we had to wear glasses.

I can't say for sure whether it worked or was psychosomatic for me either. Whichever it was, my knee absolutely hurt less from the PT stress after laser application, but it was definitely a shorter term affect - maybe the rest of that day. Sort of like popping an Aleve. With this particular laser (I know nothing about them), the PT said it could be applied close to the skin, or else with an attachment (similar to a massage gun) touching the skin. When touching the skin, I definitely felt a warming sensation.

I couldn't tell if there were any cumulative effects, but then I was only getting it 1-2 times per week for a couple of months. My day to day knee is WAY better now than it has been since the injury, but I can't be sure how much of that was the laser or the PT exercises or just time.

[K Frame]

That was either a class 3 or 4 laser device.

Read up on the mechanisms behind what cold laser light therapy does. It's pretty interesting.

[Bogie]

My bud Wilson built a 200 watt liquid cooled C02 laser in his basement. It was great for lighting cigars... Which we would hold down into the beam and roll. After the first incident, we put a few concrete blocks in front of it and hoped his old lady wouldn't notice the hole in the basement wall...
 
I think he kinda wanted to load it in the van, and then go visit one of his exes...

[Kingcreek]

I believe that it's a class 2 device.

And yeah, even class 1 and 2 devices have been shown to have beneficial therapeutic effects, albeit at a slower, lower rate. Lots of information out there on them.

Much lower/slower. I haven’t seen the studies validating them but I do have experience with the 3b Erchonia.

[HankB]

My bud Wilson built a 200 watt liquid cooled C02 laser in his basement. It was great for lighting cigars... Which we would hold down into the beam and roll. After the first incident, we put a few concrete blocks in front of it and hoped his old lady wouldn't notice the hole in the basement wall...
 
I think he kinda wanted to load it in the van, and then go visit one of his exes...

OK, I'm impressed. As an undergrad I built a CO2 laser, but it only put out a couple of watts. Years later I had a 50W CO2 laser at work - that could do considerably more than light cigars. We had other Class IV lasers as well, used for both R&D and manufacturing.

. . . Class 3/4 are stuff you really don't want to mess around with at home.

QFT.

I used to teach a class in laser safety at work, so presumably I know what I'm doing. As interesting as they are, I haven't bought one of the higher power laser pointers for home use - they're just not the sort of thing to screw around with casually.

[dogmush]

Class 3/4 are stuff you really don't want to mess around with at home.

I have a 50w CO2 laser in the garage and a 3 class 3B IR lasers lying around,  but I've never heard of cold laser therapy.

What is it supposed to be doing in a TL;DR fashion?

[Bogie]

If you think you feel better, then  you feel better.
 
When I was with Searle Pharma, we had some company meetings in big rooms, and that was when things like laser pointers were kinda new.
 
And we had a big handheld (for definitions - it was about the size of three beer cans) red laser, and everyone who got to touch it got the lecture:
 
"NEVER point it toward the audience, and while you're pointing it toward the screen, keep it moving."
 
There had been a smoke incident...

[K Frame]

Much lower/slower. I haven’t seen the studies validating them but I do have experience with the 3b Erchonia.

And the problem with that is? Is there really any expectation that an at home device is going to offer the same speed benefits as a medical-grade one? No.

But I'll say this...

Since I started treating Seren two days ago, I've seen a marked improvement. She's more energetic and her rear leg position is much more natural. previously, when standing, she was VERY down on her pastern. That's an indication of knee and/or hip pain.

This morning her position was much more natural.

She'll be starting a new NSAID in a few days, but I'm going to continue using the device.


As for my knees after two days? Also a marked improvement in my pain levels.

The device also has a "surface treatment" mode that uses different wavelengths. It's for wound healing, etc. I've started using that mode on several patches of psoarsis (sp? I can never spell that) that I have on the back my hand and elbow. Way too early to tell any different for that, though.


Castle Key will confirm that I'm kind of a maniac when it comes to my dogs. I can see things that aren't there, I can see the worst case scenario, and I can grasp at straws. That's part of my mental process when it comes to my dogs.

But what I'm seeing right now isn't imaginary. It's physical, and it's showing as an improvement in Seren's energy levels and her positioning when she's standing and also when she's walking.

[Nick1911]

I have a 50w CO2 laser in the garage and a 3 class 3B IR lasers lying around,  but I've never heard of cold laser therapy.

What is it supposed to be doing in a TL;DR fashion?

Photochem of some sort

The literature reviewed suggests that biostimulation with lasers:
1) accelerates the inflammatory phase of wound healing by altering the levels of various prostaglandins,
2) increases ATP synthesis by enhancing electron transfer in the inner membrane of mitochondria,
3) quickens protein (collagen) synthesis by quickening DNA and RNA synthesis,
4) augments fibroplasia by a mechanism that is still being explored, and
5) enhances the ability of immune cells to combat invading pathogens.

I eyeball it very skeptically.  I'm mostly convinced it's medical quackery.

• I do not understand why coherent, monochromatic light is necessary, other than the marketing angle of "Lasers sound cool, and we can charge more"
• The wavelengths are between visible and IR.  This is below wavelengths at which ionization occur, and are generally thought of as only causing heating, not chemical changes.
• While the Chinese have gotten into the market with inexpensive devices, the classic Erchonia units are INSANELY expensive for something that consists of literally a PWM driver and a few 7.5mW diodes. [1][2][3]
• Want some 635nm light?  Slap on some sunscreen and go outside, you'll get 1.3 watts per square meter of it .    [cite]

Someone change my mind with some peer reviewed double blind studies.

[K Frame]

And, NIH, and many other organizations, have ample studies that agree that laser therapy is proven, effective, and virtually without side effects...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4743666/

[cordex]

And, NIH, and many other organizations, have ample studies that agree that laser therapy is proven, effective, and virtually without side effects...

Of note, the same is also true for sugar pills.

[HankB]

Is that the same NIH that sent American $$$ to Communist China to fund research in Wuhan?

[K Frame]

Of note, the same is also true for sugar pills.

Yes it is. Because the placebo effect has been shown to trigger actual responses in the brain, stimulating and heightening the releasing endorphins, dopamine, seratonin, and other hormones that are part of the body's natural response to pain, stress, etc. There's also a distinct psychosomatic response to a person believing that they're receiving treatment.

As for the red light therapy, the response by nerves to certain wavelengths of light is also well documented.

But, I'm sure that the medical professionals who trained at APS School of Medical Knowledge and Animal Husbandry are far more knowledgeable than mere outsiders...


"Is that the same NIH that sent American $$$ to Communist China to fund research in Wuhan?"

AH MAH GERDZEZ! THEY CAUSED DA COVIDS! Anyone and anything that they ever did, talked to, funded, or read about is tainted!

Right?

Jesus *expletive deleted*ing christ...


OK... posit me this...

Modern medical researchers -- doctors, neurobiologists, etc. -- still can't fully explain how, or why, common aspirin is effective at relieving pain.

Knowing that, do you still pop an aspirin when you have a headache?

Or do you go out and howl at the moon and rub cow dung behind your knees?

[Nick1911]

I'm again reminded why I usually avoid responding to K Frame threads.  For a board named "Armed Polite Society", I'm amazed we continue to tolerate such a rude, crass individual.

Thank you, however, for the link.

[RocketMan]

Modern medical researchers -- doctors, neurobiologists, etc. -- still can't fully explain how, or why, common aspirin is effective at relieving pain.

Knowing that, do you still pop an aspirin when you have a headache?

Or do you go out and howl at the moon and rub cow dung behind your knees?

Cow dung behind the knees is my go-to because aspirin has gotten too expensive.  I do skip the howling at the moon part, however.  I found it wasn't effective, even as a placebo.

[De Selby]

OK... posit me this...

Modern medical researchers -- doctors, neurobiologists, etc. -- still can't fully explain how, or why, common aspirin is effective at relieving pain.

Knowing that, do you still pop an aspirin when you have a headache?

Or do you go out and howl at the moon and rub cow dung behind your knees?

Define irony: man electronically howling at moon accuses man who takes aspirin of engaging in witchcraft.

The market for most of these pain products is mainly buyers who are for whatever reason horribly physically unfit. Maintaining physical fitness blows most moderate treatments and placebo pills out of the water.

[cordex]

Maintaining physical fitness blows most moderate treatments and placebo pills out of the water.

Very true.

Exercise (either for its own sake or through actually accomplishing things), eating well, and spending more time outside will do more to improve both physical and mental health than just about anything else.

[K Frame]

"Define irony: man electronically howling at moon accuses man who takes aspirin of engaging in witchcraft."

And De Selby once again completely misses the point. As I've repeatedly pointed out, BOTH avenues have been shown, repeatedly, to have tangible positive effects that can be explained medically. Aspirin for over 100 years, laser-based therapies for nearly 70 years.

Yet my point out that one avenue for learning about such treatments was immediately dismissed because NIH may have provided funding to the Chinese re Corona and that apparently invalidates everything that NIH has ever touched in its nearly 150 year history. Sure. Why not. 


"The market for most of these pain products is mainly buyers who are for whatever reason horribly physically unfit. Maintaining physical fitness blows most moderate treatments and placebo pills out of the water."

True, but only up to a point.

You can't defeat time because time takes its own toll. That's what my dog is facing. The known ravages of time.

[K Frame]

I'm again reminded why I usually avoid responding to K Frame threads.  For a board named "Armed Polite Society", I'm amazed we continue to tolerate such a rude, crass individual.

Thank you, however, for the link.

And yet, here you are.

Love you, too, Nick.

If I'm a rude and crass individual for calling out one of the most retarded flights of logical fancy posted to this board in quite some time, well so be it.



And, another situational report on Seren, after several days of treatments with the red light device she is standing FAR higher on her pastern than she was at the start. This morning she's back to probably 80% of normal stance, where was before she was at probably 50% or less.

So, if continuing to use this device when there is actual medical support for the results I'm seeing makes me a Commie-loving COVID sucking tool of Anthony Falci and his evil NIH minions... so be it, because my girl is more comfortable. At that is the only think that matters to me.

[HankB]

. . . Yet my point out that one avenue for learning about such treatments was immediately dismissed because NIH may have provided funding to the Chinese re Corona and that apparently invalidates everything that NIH has ever touched in its nearly 150 year history. Sure. Why not.  . . .

Exaggerated straw-man responses to a simple question persuade no one.

[K Frame]

Your "question" wasn't a question.

It was an associative accusation designed to sow doubt and, by extension, invalidate the whole of the body.